Can you teach your baby to be a "bad" sleeper??

[behaviourmama]

So.. DD2 sleeps almost exactly like DD1. Wakes at every cycle into light sleep. During the day, she'll nap for only 20-30 minutes, then wake and can't doze back off on her own. When she goes down to sleep "for the night", she wakes every 20/30/45 minutes for 5-6 hours, after which she starts to sleep for longer cycles, and she'll wake every 2 or so, until the early morning when cycles get shorter again, and she starts to wake every hour or 45 minutes until up for the day. This is a familiar routine, as DD1 did this FOREVER (19 months or more).

This used to make others question whether it was my parenting style that made her sleep this way, which of course in turn made me question whether I did in fact teach her to be a bad sleeper. I'd get comments like "maybe you respond to her too quickly" or "maybe you should leave her longer, what if she doesn't fully wake up", etc. etc.

Now that I am back to this bouncing/nursing/patting/shushing/"working for hours of the day to keep baby asleep" routine, I am again questioning, did I teach this to her? I tried harder this time to avoid "getting her used to help", if that's even possible! The other part of my brain keeps telling myself that it's just temperment, and I have babies who are sensitive and responsive to their environments, even when asleep (the floor squeaked the other day and that woke up DD).

I guess what I'm getting at is, what do you guys think?? Can you teach a baby to be a bad sleeper? To wake often? Or will good sleepers be good sleepers, and light sleepers be "bad" sleepers? I'm definitely not questioning my parenting style, and I will not give up co-sleeping for the reasons of getting my baby to sleep longer periods.. and I am patient for the day that she does start to sleep longer because I know it will happen.. I'm just driving myself crazy debating whether I did cause this???

[lilikoi]

I am on the same boat. My DD is 11 months old and her sleep pattern is very similar as the one you describe. She has been like this since she was 5 months old. People first told me it was just a phase that would pass really soon, but it didn't pass. I just got used to it. It's hard because family and friends always comment on how I may be enabling her to continue sleeping like this. Sometimes I doubt myself, but when I really think about it, I think that my DD really needs me to fall back asleep. It's really hard because everyone I know with a baby tells me how well their babies sleep and I think they believe it is because of their good parenting. I think it is really the kind of baby you have. 

[foreignerforlife]

Oh, I can't wait to hear what the others have to say about this! I am in the same boat with both of you. I have also started wondering whether my DS (8 months old) sleeps "badly" because he is in our bed and maybe we disturb his sleep. 

[Peony]

I firmly believe bad sleepers are born, not made. You do start to wonder when you get multiple bad sleepers though!

[crayfishgirl]

I agree with Peony.  My DD was like yours, and was born "not sleeping", and I wondered if it was because of what we did.  My son (now 9 months) has been a sleeper from Day 1, to the point where I asked our Ped if it was okay that he slept so much.  As a newborn we would just turn on the fan and he'd be out in seconds, and for a while we could just lay him down when he was tired and he'd fall asleep (now, not so much).  I know that doesn't help you get baby to sleep, but at least you can take comfort in the fact that by shushing/bouncing/rocking you're meeting your daughters needs and not creating them.   

[behaviourmama]

Originally Posted by lilikoi 

 It's really hard because everyone I know with a baby tells me how well their babies sleep and I think they believe it is because of their good parenting. I think it is really the kind of baby you have. 

Thats the thing! People with easy babies or easy sleepers totally attribute their superior skills as parents (maybe not to generalize, but I know some of these parents.. some are even my close family members). It's hard not to judge yourself when you are openly, or subtly criticized.

Originally Posted by crayfishgirl 

As a newborn we would just turn on the fan and he'd be out in seconds, and for a while we could just lay him down when he was tired and he'd fall asleep (now, not so much).  I know that doesn't help you get baby to sleep, but at least you can take comfort in the fact that by shushing/bouncing/rocking you're meeting your daughters needs and not creating them.   

Oh I dreamed of this kind of baby! DH and I told DD2 in utero that she'd better sleep.. she didn't listen. Not that parents of sleepers don't have other challenges.. and maybe that's our trade off.. But why is it that sleep is such a fair-game area for criticism and judgement?

[crayfishgirl]

Originally Posted by behaviourmama 

Thats the thing! People with easy babies or easy sleepers totally attribute their superior skills as parents (maybe not to generalize, but I know some of these parents.. some are even my close family members). It's hard not to judge yourself when you are openly, or subtly criticized.

Oh I dreamed of this kind of baby! DH and I told DD2 in utero that she'd better sleep.. she didn't listen. Not that parents of sleepers don't have other challenges.. and maybe that's our trade off.. But why is it that sleep is such a fair-game area for criticism and judgement?

I know about the criticism....my sister was of the "ur doing it wrong" variety because she had a sleeper, and my mom (my mom!) was also very judge-y about how we would tend to her and get her to sleep.  Having had (and still have...she's better, but still needs help falling asleep and is up several times a night) a crap sleeper I'm almost embarrassed even mentioning that my second sleeps well.  I have no preconceived notions that DS's sleep patterns have anything to do with me....I'm just super, super lucky!

I wonder if its a boy-girl thing?  All the poor sleepers I know are girls.  

[anjsmama]

I nighttime parented both of my children in the same manner.... and my first DS slept through the night, 12 hours solid, from 6 months on. My DD is 10 months and still wakes every hour or two after the initial 5-hour stretch. She wakes when the door squeaks and when the neighbors bang or play music, she wakes when her brother yells or plays too loud. She wakes when Mommy reaches to hold her, and wakes if I don't reach to hold her. My DS still sleeps like a rock; through talking, music, banging, and DD crying. It's your baby, not your parenting!

[Gracecody]

this may be way too obvious, but have those of you with light sleepers tried running a fan in the room to cancel out some other noises? we have the fan going 24/7 in our room since we have two other kids and two dogs. my daughter still prefers to have a fan on when she goes to sleep (she's nearly 4 now and in her own room).

my first baby (boy) was a terrible sleeper and never slept through the night til age 2 or so. He would wake 10-15 times a night at various points. My daughter was a much better sleeper from the beginning. my current baby (12 weeks) is good in some ways but lately has been snoozing and waking and then refusing to nurse and getting hysterical at the breast. that is really fun at 11pm. so that is why I am here reading. but just wanted to add to the conversation about how it's possible for babies parented the same way to vary in their sleep habits, and boys can be terrible sleepers too. :)

[MrsSlocombe]

I think so, only because most parents I know seem to be able to connect their own actions to good or bad sleep patterns.  There are Moms who say, "We used this method [this book, etc.], and we're so glad we did!  DD is a great sleeper!"  Then there are those who say, "DS still gets up at night because we taught him to go to the bottle for comfort [not just food];  we wish we hadn't.", or "We 'sleep trained' DS, and wish we had done so for DD, because she still wakes up at age two!"

I can't be sure they are right in each case, but I am noticing a pattern.  It seems that when parents start with some sort of researched plan and have a goal of sleeping through the night, they are usually successful.  When parents play it by ear, or say things like, "We'd like to do [some technique or another], but we can't because [we have to go to work in the morning, it might wake our older son, etc.]," it is then that the babies and toddlers have the least sound, lengthy sleep.  Then there are parents who don't believe that lengthy, sound sleep is important, and their children may have sleep patterns similar to your daughter's, yet they do not worry about it or call it "bad."  These parents can be considered successful because they have different goals, and have met them.

I am four months pregnant and still reading.  I do have extensive experience as a nanny getting older babies and toddlers to nap, and I found that a simple pattern of short book, routine song (can be something made up), and then a pleasant good night, work well.  Sometimes, it takes the child 5-10 minutes to fall asleep, but this is okay.  I don't fall asleep the minute I get in bed, either.  The children in my care usually sleep a long time if allowed.  (Some families prefer me to wake the child after 1-2 hours.  I haven't decided if I think this is best or not, but I do it upon request.)  Every time I see a cousin with children (saw many over the holidays), or get in touch with a family I used to care for, I ask about sleeping and get book recommendations if they've had success.  These conversations, combined with what I've gleaned over the years as a nanny, are where I'm getting the bulk of my answer.

[behaviourmama]

Interesting! In my experience, I have met those parents who used a technique or approach and were not happy with it. I've met several parents who did CIO with their children and said it worked.. Only until their child got sick, and hit the next stage of development. I met a parent who had "successfully" taught her child to sleep three times. Each time it worked only for a period of time. I, myself, have tried the approach from NCSS and had success.... But it took months and months and months, and you are right, my goals defined what I deemed a success. My goals were minuscule, and at age 3 DD1 still does not sleep through the night regularly. Even though I have been working at it for 3 years. So yes, maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe those other parents are doing it better or picking the "right" approach. Or maybe you haven't talked to enough parents of bad sleepers. Also it is worth noting that you pointed out either parents who were happy with what they did (or could be they just had "easy" sleepers), or parents who wished they'd done something more (or maybe "difficult" sleepers?), but not parents who had tried an approach that didn't work. So maybe the sample of parents you talked with are not representative!

MrsSlocombe, congratulations on your pregnancy! I hope you have a good sleeper

Gracecody, thanks for the sound machine tip. We have white noise running constantly, and it definitely helps from out some of the noises in a small house!

There are no simple solutions to my sleepers though, not even a strict routine with singing. And if I find one, rest assured, I will be writing a book!!

[MrsSlocombe]

Originally Posted by behaviourmama 

Interesting! In my experience, I have met those parents who used a technique or approach and were not happy with it. I've met several parents who did CIO with their children and said it worked.. Only until their child got sick, and hit the next stage of development. I met a parent who had "successfully" taught her child to sleep three times. Each time it worked only for a period of time. I, myself, have tried the approach from NCSS and had success.... But it took months and months and months, and you are right, my goals defined what I deemed a success. My goals were minuscule, and at age 3 DD1 still does not sleep through the night regularly. Even though I have been working at it for 3 years. So yes, maybe I'm doing it wrong, or maybe those other parents are doing it better or picking the "right" approach. Or maybe you haven't talked to enough parents of bad sleepers. Also it is worth noting that you pointed out either parents who were happy with what they did (or could be they just had "easy" sleepers), or parents who wished they'd done something more (or maybe "difficult" sleepers?), but not parents who had tried an approach that didn't work. So maybe the sample of parents you talked with are not representative!
MrsSlocombe, congratulations on your pregnancy! I hope you have a good sleeper
Gracecody, thanks for the sound machine tip. We have white noise running constantly, and it definitely helps from out some of the noises in a small house!
There are no simple solutions to my sleepers though, not even a strict routine with singing. And if I find one, rest assured, I will be writing a book!!

Thanks for the good wishes!  Oh, some of the parents I know who ended up being happy with the method they chose, DID try other methods they didn't like first.  I didn't mean to imply that there was no trial and error.  It just seems that the difference between success and lack thereof usually boils down to research (either through books or family experience) and a dedication to the goal.  The two families I know with the worst sleepers, seem to have known they were taking the easy way out by not doing enough, and they believe they are paying for it now.  This having been said, neither of those children is three yet.  It is entirely possible that you have a daughter with a natural sleep problem (or, to remove value judgment, just a sleep difference), since you are dealing with an age that does not usually present any difficulties in this area.  It is also, like I said, possible that the families I have met are incorrectly interpreting their own experiences.

[dot1]

I think it can be a little bit of both, in my experience.  But some things you just cannot help.  My 2 mo old DD2 will now only nap on me or in the car seat....however she also has reflux, is gassy and if I were to put her down to see if she will "settle" on her own, she gets easily worked up....and any crying/fussing makes her even more gassy and spitting up more, and it also seems to make her startle reflex stronger.  Swaddling helps only a bit...she coughs on her back, even with head of her bed elevated.  As a younger baby she actally did drift off a few times on her own in the bassinette.  I'll probably try the pick up/put down method (no crying) when she's a bit older to try to help her learn to fall asleep without nursing or patting.  But for now it's full time bedsharing and babywearing and a very sore back....

DD1 - had the exact same thing going on from age 5-9 months.   In her case I discovered it was just a very strong sleep association with nursing to sleep....and with some help from "No Cry Sleep Solution" I broke it (age 9-10 months?). I wished I had discovered this sooner...would have made for much happier family life in our case...