Regrets - Page 9

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Roar 


Would you see that development of independence and accomplishment (in whatever form knitting designer to traditional college) as something we could predict or not predict? Knowing what the unschooling approach was like or what the child seemed like at age eight do you think you'd be able to guess the kids who will be ready to make this transition?

I guess part of why I'm asking is that a lot of the kids I see who do make that transition were also kids who were often particularly capable their ages at a younger age as well. I don't necessarily mean in respect just of traditional academics or something like handwriting, but in terms of stuff like knitting, woodworking, volunteering independent of parents, learning from instruction such as working with a music teacher and practicing regularly, etc.

Honestly... and this is just my experience, looking back, and I don't mean it as a criticism of anyone here... but the kids who seem to have been happiest and most successful as young adults have been the ones who had parents who were actively involved in their lives at 8. I don't mean parents who were teaching or guiding them as much as parents who just spent a lot time with them and talked with them, and seemed to be excited about learning new stuffand incorporating new ideas... parents who were modeling learning and including their kids, I guess. One thing that I've noticed grown unschoolers being especially good at it making non-traditional connections - lateral thinking, if you will. I almost think this is what really matters.

As far as being capable at younger ages, I think that's pretty variable. I guess I've seen younger unschoolers as generally being uneven in this sort of development - kids who can bakes cookies by themselves before they can write their names, for example. At 8, though, the unschoolers I've known have been all over the map, and I don't see their skills then as being necessarily related to where they were ten years later.

Originally Posted by Roar 


You asked what I meant by emotional skills and yes, it includes the ones you mentioned. I'm thinking about this broadly including stuff like: coping with frustration, perfectionism, being able to ask for and receive help, ability to delay gratification, understanding and respecting other people's feelings, setting goals, time management, working systematically, accepting criticism, being able to work with others, being able to receive instruction, listening, and for negative first responders - being able to open yourself to trying new things.

I think this is a really nice list of skills that perhaps everyone should be working on always... I read through it and immediately thought, "Oh, I should work on that and that this spring!".

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Roar 

Trouble with quoting you again Kathy. I wish muliquote would work for me.

I certainly agree community activities can be great for kids and so many us are lucky to have good options in that regard. I am concerned about the above statement though. If students aren't growing emotionally at home and the child is home/un schooled that is a concern. While communities activities can be great they often come and go as time goes on. Some group experiences are fun for other reasons, but don't necessarily offer a lot in terms of emotional or intellectual growth. It depends a great deal on the activity, the instructor, the mix of kids, etc. My skepticism that these activities will always provide the needed experience is a lot like my skepticism that school will. 

You asked what I meant by emotional skills and yes, it includes the ones you mentioned. I'm thinking about this broadly including stuff like: coping with frustration, perfectionism, being able to ask for and receive help, ability to delay gratification, understanding and respecting other people's feelings, setting goals, time management, working systematically, accepting criticism, being able to work with others, being able to receive instruction, listening, and for negative first responders - being able to open yourself to trying new things.

I think you may not be able to quote me because I tend to write within quotes to respond to individual statements.  

Italics mine.  I share your concern, and agree not all extra-curriculur are created equal - and yet, for my family, they have been a fairly critical part of emotional growth.  Some of these skills you learn even with less than stellar extra-curriculur experiences.

I have 3 children, several pets, both parents work (albeit I only work part time). I do a lot for my kids, but I think I do a decent job of not subjugating my needs for that of my kids. In many way our lives contribute to learning the skills listed in the second paragraph above.  

I would say our academic pursuits at home have not led to the emotional skills you mention, at least not in great measure.  I could push things, I suppose, to challenge them - but I have to weigh the pros and cons of doing that.  Challenge itself is good - but is best when it presents as a real challenge because you are interested in a topic, not because your mom decided you need challenging (which can look a lot like busy work - which some kids, particularly older ones, can see right through).  I try to help them find real challenges within their interests.

As  our children age, mentors, outside classes, volunteer experiences, etc are often the best way to pursue interests.  Kids  knowledge in their chosen field often outstrips ours.  DS loves drama. A drama class, with a drama-specialist teacher, a theatre and other peers teach him far more than I could.  A real deadline  (you need to learn these lines by Feb. 1st or you will let down the cast and might embarrass yourself) is so much more motivating and teaches much more than mom just saying "memorise these lines".  One has a real purpose - and one has what? Memorise these lines or you will let down mom? 

Speaking primarily for older kids, I also tend to think their interests are their interests.  I have an interest in Fine Arts.  I have no desire for you or anyone else to come along and try to challenge me, make me work on timelines, etc.  It is my deal.  If I ask for help, or you know something about the topic and I genuinely seem to be struggling, cool - offer assistance or comments, but otherwise, zip it .  I respect the same thing with my kids interests.

I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that I do not see myself as a teacher.  I will teach (happily) if asked, I will teach if a child is stuck or is lacking a basic skill, but overall I think the best vehicle to learning goes like this (and in this order):

-internal motivation due to an interest  (it may not help with emotional development, however)

-external motivation due to pursuing an interest with real applications ( ex - plays, sports, etc)

-mommy imposed work because she thinks it will be good for you.  I think this has a place (a stuck child who is not progressing) but might be less successful than either of the above.

I do think discussion and listening to kids of all ages is crucial in helping them to process events - which is very important in emotional development.

Woo - wrote a book!

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that I do not see myself as a teacher.  I will teach (happily) if asked, I will teach if a child is stuck or is lacking a basic skill, but overall I think the best vehicle to learning goes like this (and in this order):

-internal motivation due to an interest  (it may not help with emotional development, however)

-external motivation due to pursuing an interest with real applications ( ex - plays, sports, etc)

-mommy imposed work because she thinks it will be good for you.  I think this has a place (a stuck child who is not progressing) but might be less successful than either of the above.

I do think discussion and listening to kids of all ages is crucial in helping them to process events - which is very important in emotional development.

kathymuggle, I like your list, and would like to add to it.  Before imposing work, I think finding ways to encourage a skill that is lacking for some reason or another is a good step.  Here's my recent example.  I do understand that this works very well with the younger set, and I have no idea how much it would help with teens.  (And I disagree with the pp that mentioned something like this would take "too much energy"!)

My oldest daughter (7 in a couple of weeks) has always had some struggles with fine motor control.  Nothing concerning, but definitely a struggle for her.  She used a fist-grip until she was 5.5yo, and hesitated to draw or write much because of the difficulty, while her little sister wrote and drew with ease.  I had shown dd1 several times over the years how to grip a pencil, and said that once she got the hang of it, she could have better control because she was most clearly frustrated, not only with the effort involved, but not being able to control her drawing well.  She would grump and say "no" quite obstinately and continued to draw for a minute then give it up for a while.  I didn't "let it go", but I did bide my time.  Every now and again, I'd mention it again and for a while I'd get the same reaction.  I would offer her block crayons and stubby pencils to see if that would help.  She started experimenting with hand grips, and she still does a little.  She started writing in a burst of enthusiasm, but stalled again because I think it was exhausting work physically.  I would bide my time, leaving out her favorite book she loved to copy from, but she ignored it again, mostly.  Not writing.  I even started a thread about it.  I wasn't really *concerned* because, at 6yo, she still was still young and excelling everywhere else, but I did recognize that she needed help here and that she was "behind", and that to get better with this she just needed to *do* it to build strength in her hands.  Now she has started to doodle and draw and write with regularity.  Seeing her fidgeting while I read to her on the couch, I brought her a clipboard with plenty of paper, and she has taken to drawing and writing every day, especially during storytime.  I can see her grip get stronger and more confident.  

I could have started short, parent-imposed writing sessions every day, but I didn't think it was necessary yet. I did, however, pay attention to the issue, trying to encourage her with opportunities for practicing.  BTW, Roar, this is what I mean by "entice"-- setting out activities that might encourage her to practice this skill on her own, often in the context of other activities (recently it was making homemade gift tags for Christmas presents which she thoroughly enjoyed).  I think, especially for families who lean towards unschooling that this can be successful and a desirable step before deciding whether or not to impose work.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Dar 


Honestly... and this is just my experience, looking back, and I don't mean it as a criticism of anyone here... but the kids who seem to have been happiest and most successful as young adults have been the ones who had parents who were actively involved in their lives at 8. I don't mean parents who were teaching or guiding them as much as parents who just spent a lot time with them and talked with them, and seemed to be excited about learning new stuffand incorporating new ideas... parents who were modeling learning and including their kids, I guess.

That makes sense. I guess part of what I'm wondering is how much unschooling is to be relied upon to produce internal self motivation in children who don't have it. When I think of the most motivated teens I know (including schooled ones) they are the same kids who at seven or eight had non screen based purposeful activity that required some degree of work, planning, etc.  I don't see a lot of kids who go from none of this to lots of it by the time they are older. Which gets me to wondering again about the windows of development and some of the core skills like learning to work through frustration. Do kids just grow up and they are able to do it or does something need to happen along the way to help that process along?

[Roar]

Imposing. That seems to be a popular word in some of the recent posts. To me imposing in this context means using force or authority to make another person do something. Is that your definition? Clearly that is something everyone posting here sees as a real negative and it also sounds like something people will consider in situation when they feel unschooling didn't lead to a particular core skill they consider important. Is that accurate?

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Roar 

Imposing. That seems to be a popular word in some of the recent posts. To me imposing in this context means using force or authority to make another person do something. Is that your definition? Clearly that is something everyone posting here sees as a real negative and it also sounds like something people will consider in situation when they feel unschooling didn't lead to a particular core skill they consider important. Is that accurate?

I think "force" is too strong a word - but use authority, yes.

I do not think a mommy imposed is agenda is bad in general.  Almost all schools and many HSers use, at least some of the time, parentally or adult driven plans.  Many kids and families do just fine with such a plan. Some don't, though. USing is much more child led, however, so it does this less than other methods.  I think USing works as well as other methods and without some of the drawbacks  - but  much of this is based on philosophical musings, anecdotes and observations.  There are no real studies on how USers do in the long term (or is there?  One can hope!)

I would use mommy-imposed work on a young child who was not meeting milestones in a generous amount of time.  I would use many of the ideas listed in this thread on how to help reluctant kids first, but I can see instances where just making the kids do the work is beneficial.  Rare, but I can see it.

For an older kid I would try hard to get them onboard with any plan.  Really hard.  My Ds has a friend who is floundering (dropped out of school, not HSed or USed, poor role models)  I could and would love to devise a plan for him to help him get back on track...but unless he wants it and co-operate, there is little point.  His mother cannot make him "not flounder" - she has tried.  He needs help and it might be counselling - but until he is on board with changing his life, no mommy imposed "do this algebraic equations" is going to help.

Edited by purslaine - 1/8/12 at 7:53pm

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by Roar 

Imposing. That seems to be a popular word in some of the recent posts. To me imposing in this context means using force or authority to make another person do something. Is that your definition? Clearly that is something everyone posting here sees as a real negative and it also sounds like something people will consider in situation when they feel unschooling didn't lead to a particular core skill they consider important. Is that accurate?

I definitely think there is a difference between "parent-imposed" and "parent-led"or "initiated".  I think there are many ways parents can initiate an activity or regular work without actually imposing it.  The key is how the child responds-- joins in or acquiesces, or expresses resistance?-- and then the response of the parent to that.  The activity can be something like a short hike, a page of math or spelling, a museum trip.  The reasons can be anything from "wouldn't this be fun?" to "do you think we should do math for one hour every day so you can become more confident?"  etc. etc.  The child's response is either joining in willingly, or resisting (mildly or obstinately).  Then, what is the parent's response to that?  If they go forward with the activity, it is then parent-imposed.

"Parent imposed" is not necessarily a bad thing, though, as any parent of a toddler knows!  My oldest daughter at that age would protest whenever we got ready to leave the house, then absolutely enjoyed herself when we were doing open gym, going to the library, parks, etc.  The situation changes slightly as the kids age, and it can become more complex.  And as long as their is more than one kid in the family (especially young ones, I'm speaking from what I know) you are going to encounter this when one kid wants to do something and the other one doesn't.  My oldest is "done" with our monthly wolf camp meetings, but my youngest loves them and I love them, and I can't leave my oldest anywhere, so she has to be with us, at least for now.  Imposed.  Not necessarily a bad thing.  

But imposition can become a problem, if there is sustained and growing resistance, and it digresses into continued conflict.  A parent needs to recognize this as a possibility.  Another little kid example (because I'm using what I know)-- hikes.  It can be very difficult to impose a hike on a kid without having a miniature protester practicing civil disobedience tactics in the middle of the trail!  So, in this area, my husband and I have changed our expectations, and altered our trip planning a little.  First, we plan a hike for the first full day of camping, not the last day when they are exhausted.  We also try to size the hike according to our kids' interest and endurance.  And on those trips, we limit the number of big, parent-imposed activities to no more than one.  (Actually, we went to the beach last August and let the kids choose if we would drive up to the next beach or stay put.  We stayed put the whole time and had the best vacation of our lives.  Soooo nice!)  

So, while parents shouldn't shy away entirely from imposing activities, they should be mindful that it can be work taking that route-- perhaps a lot of work and energy.  Now, I've used single activities for examples so far.  For sustained work, I have no examples yet, but I do have bedtime and teethbrushing, activities I impose every night--well, the girls don't protest every night, but frequently it is some work to get them into bed.  I imagine imposing academic work could become a bit like that.  Perhaps easier than this, but perhaps much, much harder and time consuming.

I would definitely "consider" imposing academics on my kids, in theory.  Whether I would do it in a similar situation where another parent would definitely do it I cannot answer.  And, if I did impose something, the question might arise as to how much resistance I would meet before reconsidering?  Again, that answer I don't know.  I practice that occasionally, though, when I ask myself "Does it really matter today if she puts on socks under her boots today?"  Because when I said "here's some socks"  she said "no", I said "It's pretty cold outside, I'd rather you wore socks" and she says "but I don't need them"....then I think, "really Mama, does she need them?"  And sometimes the answer is "yes" and I insist, but more often in our climate the answer is "no".  If that's the case I will probably tell her, "You'll be warmer and could play longer with socks on, but I suppose since we are just playing out in the yard and it's not so very cold that you can go without if you want."

I apologize if my little-kid examples are not perfectly applicable to the complexities of teens and academics and unschooling, but in this case I prefer to speak of what I know.  (I said that already.)

[SweetSilver]

Big post! And I didn't even tie it into unschooling. People learned *best* when they are fully on board. Imposed lessons increase the likelihood that a child is not fully on board with it.  End of the world?  No.  But still "unschooling" when lessons are imposed unwillingly (from the child's POV)?  No.  When would someone be fully on board?  When the work has meaning. Either the work itself is meaningful, or it achieves something meaningful down the road.  In school, my best friend's math was meaningful because she wanted to be an aeronautical engineer, like her dad.  For other friends that math meant they could get into the college of their choice, even if math was not related to their preferred field.  For me, well..... not as meaningful.

I'm not saying that imposed learning is always a bust, but as an unschooling parent, I try to  give my kids wide latitude to find their own way, create their own pursuits because it is hard to cram a head full of a lesson, when thoughts of boredom (and waiting for the bell to ring, if there was one!) are already taking up prime real estate up there.  (Well, that's not the only scenario, of course.)  

In my house anyway, I see the effects that ownership of one's *own* discoveries creates.  It has a far greater impact than what they learn from me, even when I just talk about what I see and not impose any lesson at all.  When I chat about a spider on a flower that's caught a bee, they are really interested and will watch with me.  But if *they* find the spider on the flower eating the bee, they will whoop and holler and jump with excitement.  It is a whole new level for my girls, even if discovering with me is fun, too.  My observations are still spontaneous and genuine, and I think that if I tried to create a lesson to *impose* I would lose even that moment of wonder for myself. 

Speaking of John Holt, in one of his pre-"unschooling" books, he clarified the differences between different schools and imposed learning.  Public schools where attendance was mandatory was imposed learning of the kind he disapproved.  Other schools where attendance was entirely optional even though the academics were just as rigorous, if not more so, he did approve (at that point in his writing) because the student entered into the contract willingly.  By entering the school, they agreed to abide by rules pertaining to conduct, academic expectations, etc.  Same work, still imposed, but in this case the students had the choice whether to attend or not, a truly free choice.

Edited to add:  OK, I'm really done writing now!

[Qalliope]

I would consider imposing a lesson or agenda on my kids much like we would speak of imposing on an adult. That is to say, if I am creating work for them which they would consider a burden in some way, because it is exceptionally monotonous, difficult, or time-consuming, for example, or if I am interrupting what is a meaningful and deeply fulfilling task for them or otherwise throwing a big wrench into plans they had for that day, then I would consider my agenda to be an imposition.  I ask for little favors or attention or chunks of time or energy or labor from them all the time, and they do the same to me, but we try to be respectful of each other's goals, needs, and feelings in the asking.  Sometimes when I feel like I am being bulldozed or ignored, I demand or require, but for the most part I make requests.  I consider imposing (lessons, chores, etc.) to be disrespectful and uncaring to my children. That said, I don't consider it imposing to request ds come read with me when he finishes this level, or that Youtube video, or after 5 more minutes of Minecraft, or after lunch if he's been immersed in something all morning.    I have no qualms about interrupting someone who is just killing time[edit: from their own perspective, not mine] or has had hours to indulge their whims or even their passions. Resistance at that point feels like he is stuck or bored or depressed, not passionately engaged, and I am not afraid to tell him this or let him know just how important I feel it is to try other things.  Now, if I request reading and he asks to muck about with the abacus or do a science experiment or draw a comic or play a board game instead, I'm not going to be picky or offended. If he notices it's a nice day outside and wants to go play, I smile and send him off.  If there is a commitment attached to a particular activity, such as his part in a group project, or reading a long book that will have to be returned to the library soon, or practicing kung fu for an upcoming event, I remind him of that.  That may change his mind about participating in something I am initiating, with or without resistance or reluctance, and I think that kind of resistance is acceptable, even desirable.  He is learning that sometimes he will want two things that are in direct conflict with one another, and when to give greater weight to logistics or intellectual reasons than his own feelings.

I do see imposing as a negative, though my definition seems a little different than most.  I cannot see myself ever forcing daily lessons in anything for my kids, even if they are not developing in a way which society would deem acceptable.  The only expectation I have is continued communication with me.  They are developing emotionally, and if they were not at some point, then either I need to change the way I'm communicating or I need to bring in outside help.  But they still have, and I think should have, autonomy with regards to how they live, even if their choices differ fundamentally from mine.

I feel compelled to disclose at this point that we do have daily "lessons" of a sort.  DS gives me one hour every day to teach whatever I think is good for him to learn, with heavy emphasis on topics he has expressed interest in, and with his complete focus and attention. I didn't think we'd ever do something like this because I was hoping for more open-ended learning when we started this journey, but this is our collaborative solution to his needs.  He wants to learn things, but doesn't feel ready to completely guide his own studies, is worried that he will not be prepared to merge with adult society when the time comes, and has a sense of inadequacy in certain areas which builds up and causes avoidance.  He has expressed the idea that he is stupid or that the work or practice of something is stupid when he is afraid of not being good enough or not getting better.  That's not a sign to me that I need to back off.  Is that what other unschoolers think when they hear their kids say similar things?  Because to me, this is the type of resistance that is troublesome, and the kind that I am trying to eliminate by unschooling. IME, schooled or school-at-home kids get those feelings blown off by the adults in charge of educating them, who feel that the kids should just buckle down and do the work.  "Not everything is pleasant...Sometimes you have to do things you don't like...Life isn't fair...Just get it over with..." arguments ignore a deep emotional need for reassurance.  But saying, "okay, just don't try until you feel like it then," whether by words or actions doesn't seem to address the real problem either.   What's needed, or at least what's worked for us is lots of solid examples of progress that doesn't occur until we really devote ourselves deeply to a task but takes off once we are committed, either from their own lives, their parents lives, or their peers lives, and hopefully from all three.  The foundation of strength in unschooling is the idea that kids will be motivated to pursue things they are interested in and will build necessary skills tangential to those core interests.  I am finding that does happen, but not every kid's motivation takes off on it's own enough for them to gather together all the knowledges they will need to take their self-education to the next level all the time. So they seem to plateau for a while and they might need a nudge to get moving again.  At no point do I see it requiring force, and often force is counter-productive, as we have discussed here extensively.  Of course, this is from my perspective with my kids and the knowledge I have of their friends and those friends' parents, and all of that makes up a limited viewpoint.  I just have a hard time envisioning a scenario in which a child/young adult would need to be required with the full weight of authority from a parent or teacher to do work which may or may not be relevant to their interests/life goals in order to build the minimum skills necessary to have a fulfilling life.  Humans are hard wired to learn and to find a suitable place for themselves in the community or larger world.  I have to force somebody to do what they are already expressly designed to do in order to fulfill my role as parent?

Edited by Qalliope - 1/10/12 at 6:15pm

[Roar]

So here's what I understood from that: 1. it sounds like the consensus is that imposing work is bad and something that people want to avoid particularly for older children or teens. 2. Even some of those who feel strongly allied to the unschooling philosophy also say they have imposed and would do so again particularly if children were  3. It is preferable to lead or use other strategies rather than imposing through authority. Is that correct?

Here's what I'm wondering: If we can all agree imposing is a strong negative that we desire to avoid, would it not make more sense to provide more in the way of parental leadership earlier to kids? If the expectation/habit/routine is in place of a certain amount of structured activity is in place earlier does that provide a foundation for developing in some of the areas of concern (seeing the value of consistent work at a task, handling frustration, developing learning communication with the parents)?  Would something like the one hour that Qalliope described be a helpful habit for more unschoolers to consider earlier.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Qalliope  He has expressed the idea that he is stupid or that the work or practice of something is stupid when he is afraid of not being good enough or not getting better.  That's not a sign to me that I need to back off.  Is that what other unschoolers think when they hear their kids say similar things?  Because to me, this is the type of resistance that is troublesome, and the kind that I am trying to eliminate by unschooling. IME, schooled or school-at-home kids get those feelings blown off by the adults in charge of educating them, who feel that the kids should just buckle down and do the work.  "Not everything is pleasant...Sometimes you have to do things you don't like...Life isn't fair...Just get it over with..." arguments ignore a deep emotional need for reassurance.  But saying, "okay, just don't try until you feel like it then," whether by words or actions doesn't seem to address the real problem either.   What's needed, or at least what's worked for us is lots of solid examples of progress that doesn't occur until we really devote ourselves deeply to a task but takes off once we are committed, either from their own lives, their parents lives, or their peers lives, and hopefully from all three.  The foundation of strength in unschooling is the idea that kids will be motivated to pursue things they are interested in and will build necessary skills tangential to those core interests.  I am finding that does happen, but not every kid's motivation takes off on it's own enough for them to gather together all the knowledges they will need to take their self-education to the next level all the time. So they seem to plateau for a while and they might need a nudge to get moving again. 

Yes, all of that.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Qalliope 

  I have no qualms about interrupting someone who is just killing time or has had hours to indulge their whims or even their passions.

These words seem really loaded to me. Youtube videos and Minecraft are "indulgences" or "whims" - even if they are also passions. Would you interrupt a kid who had been spending hours immersed in, say, Plato's Republic? Although it also sounds like activities such as reading or science experiments are qualitatively different, in your mind, than youtube videos. I have a hard time with that, from an unschooling perspective.

My daughter has spent many, many hours watching movies, for years. I never considered this an "academic" pursuit, but it was clearly something she enjoyed, and I supported her in it by buying her DVDs and Netflix and stuff like that. I was actually a little surprised when she took a class in cinematography - it clearly is an academic subject in some sense, and at her university it's actually part of the lit department. I read a paper she wrote for the same class and it was just fascinating, the way she could make connections between certain things the filmmaker had chosen to do with lighting and camera angles in order to invoke other historical acts. I knew that the hours and hours Rain spent reading literature - her choice - would come in handy in college, and it has - she looked through her lit classes' syllabi and had read (and owned) more than half of the books on it. I hadn't expected movies - or "films" - to be the same way. If I had been judging her interests when she was, say, 12, I would have put movies squarely in the indulgence category...

  He has expressed the idea that he is stupid or that the work or practice of something is stupid when he is afraid of not being good enough or not getting better.  That's not a sign to me that I need to back off.  Is that what other unschoolers think when they hear their kids say similar things? 

To me, that might be a sign that my kid had somehow gotten the idea that her accomplishments should be judged by some external rubric, rather than by her own developmental schedule. I guess it depends on the situation, though. When my kid was worried about being stupid, it was generally after talking with kids her age who knew things that she didn't, and often after they had made it clear that they thought she *should* know it. So we'd talk about how the others kids had learned it, and what things she knew instead, and whether it was something that might come naturally as she got older... and went from there. I remember a bunch of kids telling her she was stupid when she was 7 because she didn't know any "multiplication facts", so we talked a little about multiplication and when the words the kids were using meant, and she worked out a few facts... and it happened a few years later with spelling, and I shared my beliefs that reading and spelling tended to be linked and that she'd become a better speller naturally without working much at it because she read so much... which is indeed what happened...

[Qalliope]

Originally Posted by Roar 

So here's what I understood from that: 1. it sounds like the consensus is that imposing work is bad and something that people want to avoid particularly for older children or teens. 2. Even some of those who feel strongly allied to the unschooling philosophy also say they have imposed and would do so again particularly if children were  3. It is preferable to lead or use other strategies rather than imposing through authority. Is that correct?

Here's what I'm wondering: If we can all agree imposing is a strong negative that we desire to avoid, would it not make more sense to provide more in the way of parental leadership earlier to kids? If the expectation/habit/routine is in place of a certain amount of structured activity is in place earlier does that provide a foundation for developing in some of the areas of concern (seeing the value of consistent work at a task, handling frustration, developing learning communication with the parents)?  Would something like the one hour that Qalliope described be a helpful habit for more unschoolers to consider earlier.

I feel it's important to note here that this isn't something I set for my son. It was a decision we made together and a direct response to his feeling that he could not effectively guide himself at this time and reach the (really big) goals he has for his future.  We made accommodation for the fact that his desire outstripped his ability in terms of knowing what he needs to learn.  I don't think expectation or habit of structured learning even in small amounts is necessary or even desirable for all children. My daughter (3yo) is his exact opposite.  She will spend all day in productive or thoughtful labors doing early math, picking up sight words, and memorizing the names of different types of animals, but she mostly likes to paint or draw or dance, and will likely want to go into a creative field where she will need fewer academic skills.  I have no doubt she will be able to get where she's going without much direction from me whatever she decides in the future.  And she is supremely confident in her decisions and ability.  My son has always been a totally different story. He is practical and a bit insecure and a huge perfectionist.  He's also attracted to highly technical and precise endeavors with little room for error. He has for the last few years persistently declared that he wants to be an engineer.  However he is often afraid to try new things and knows he will need more involvement in academic pursuits than he is naturally inclined to investigate on his own.  So we're working on those things together. This soothes his worries about the future.  For this specific type of child, it seems to be a good solution.   I don't think what unschoolers need in general is more structure.  I think what we need is more flexibility.  More intense involvement.  More embracing the times when emotions are running high because that's when we dig up the roots of our problems so we can more effectively look for a solution.
 

[Qalliope]

Originally Posted by Dar 


These words seem really loaded to me. Youtube videos and Minecraft are "indulgences" or "whims" - even if they are also passions.

I do understand it could be interpreted this way. But for me the difference is often the articulation of what is important or valuable about the pursuit or the continuation of the pursuit or the depth to which he explores it.  Minecraft I would call a passion for him. Youtube is often a means to an end.  He uses it to research as well as to entertain himself, and I have no problem with him watching. But sometimes he watches the same thing over and over because he is bored and lonely, and I do feel obligated to call him out and involve him in some other activity.  This is different from my daughter who will watch all the Go Diego Go episodes back to back nonstop because she is interested in the animals.  I don't know how to describe it exactly.  It's kind of like, when I am in a funk, I will check facebook dozens of times, knowing full well there's nothing new there because I want to make a connection I feel I am lacking.  I see this kind of activity in my son and I am trying to help him out of a dark place. Whim is a term for a passing or casual interest, nothing wrong with that at all. It is not a judgement on the quality of the activity. I was just differentiating between the level of interest he exhibits. To rephrase: When he has had substantial time for things that he wants to do, be they deeply important to him or just a short term pursuit, to the point where he actually seems burnt out, I will say, "hey do you want to ______?" or "Could you do something with me, I'd like to spend some time with you?"  That doesn't feel like imposing to me. 

Would you interrupt a kid who had been spending hours immersed in, say, Plato's Republic?

After 12 straight hours, 3 days in a row, I wouldn't feel it was a great imposition to ask him to take out the trash, or clean up the dishes he's left around his space, or talk to another human being. Again, I am talking about requesting that he join me for something after many many hours of indulging a particular passion, when he is at what feels like a good stopping point for him, if there is one. And I like the word indulge.  It feels good to indulge. It is a luxury and a joy to be able to follow our desires in this world. I don't even like to ask if he's in the middle of a project, like designing a map in Minecraft or figuring out a difficult level in a video game.  I indulge in long sewing sessions, and I see it as valuable work, both.

Although it also sounds like activities such as reading or science experiments are qualitatively different, in your mind, than youtube videos. I have a hard time with that, from an unschooling perspective.

Only because he knows I enjoy doing those activities with him and because they are things specific to his goals for the future.  They are things he wants to do but doesn't know how to get started. They are the areas where his interests and mine happen to overlap, and comics and board games are in that list, too.  I also like painting, crafting, cooking, and sewing, but he does not. I don't dig video games, though I do take an interest and listen when he talks about them.  He also spends a lot of time building legos and just playing with his sister or friends, and I find immense value in all those things. I'm not de-valuing his gaming interest, only addressing that it sometimes takes on a quality that seems unhealthy to me and I try to keep the lines of communication open to address that if it feels problematic.( I see any activity taken to the degree where it prompts moodiness and hostility and inability to care for oneself to be problematic.)

My daughter has spent many, many hours watching movies, for years. I never considered this an "academic" pursuit, but it was clearly something she enjoyed, and I supported her in it by buying her DVDs and Netflix and stuff like that. I was actually a little surprised when she took a class in cinematography - it clearly is an academic subject in some sense, and at her university it's actually part of the lit department. I read a paper she wrote for the same class and it was just fascinating, the way she could make connections between certain things the filmmaker had chosen to do with lighting and camera angles in order to invoke other historical acts. I knew that the hours and hours Rain spent reading literature - her choice - would come in handy in college, and it has - she looked through her lit classes' syllabi and had read (and owned) more than half of the books on it. I hadn't expected movies - or "films" - to be the same way. If I had been judging her interests when she was, say, 12, I would have put movies squarely in the indulgence category...  To clarify, it is my son who is concerned with academics.  And I only have a problem with an activity when it is blotting out all other things in life, including basic self-care like eating, sleeping, going to the bathroom.  My daughter watches plenty of tv, but she does other things as well.

  He has expressed the idea that he is stupid or that the work or practice of something is stupid when he is afraid of not being good enough or not getting better.  That's not a sign to me that I need to back off.  Is that what other unschoolers think when they hear their kids say similar things? 

To me, that might be a sign that my kid had somehow gotten the idea that her accomplishments should be judged by some external rubric, rather than by her own developmental schedule. I guess it depends on the situation, though. When my kid was worried about being stupid, it was generally after talking with kids her age who knew things that she didn't, and often after they had made it clear that they thought she *should* know it. So we'd talk about how the others kids had learned it, and what things she knew instead, and whether it was something that might come naturally as she got older... and went from there. I remember a bunch of kids telling her she was stupid when she was 7 because she didn't know any "multiplication facts", so we talked a little about multiplication and when the words the kids were using meant, and she worked out a few facts... and it happened a few years later with spelling, and I shared my beliefs that reading and spelling tended to be linked and that she'd become a better speller naturally without working much at it because she read so much... which is indeed what happened...

Talking openly about why they feel stupid and what can help them feel better is exactly what I would advocate.  In my son's case, he worries he won't be good enough to do what he wants to do in the future.  And we'd acknowledged the progress he'd made and the things he'd learned and accomplished, but he still felt he wasn't doing enough, so we made some ch-ch-changes.  I do agree that "I'm stupid," is often more about other people's perceptions and judgements and it's important to ensure that kids aren't basing their self-worth off of what others want or expect, including me. 

Does this clarify my position on the value of "leisure" activities vs. "academic" activities?  I was relating a specific experience with one specific child while trying ot be at least somewhat concise, not proclaiming this as what's right for every parent or child. And again, this arrangement is completely consensual and collaborative, participation is voluntary and optional. He asked for more guidance in science, reading, math, and Chinese because he really wants to be an engineer and he wants to study kung fu in China.  The one hour a day thing is helping him find jumping off points for projects and activities of his own choosing and helping him relax about his ability to get where he wants to go when he is grown.
 

[Roar]

  He has expressed the idea that he is stupid or that the work or practice of something is stupid when he is afraid of not being good enough or not getting better.  That's not a sign to me that I need to back off.  Is that what other unschoolers think when they hear their kids say similar things? 

To me, that might be a sign that my kid had somehow gotten the idea that her accomplishments should be judged by some external rubric, rather than by her own developmental schedule. I guess it depends on the situation, though. When my kid was worried about being stupid, it was generally after talking with kids her age who knew things that she didn't, and often after they had made it clear that they thought she *should* know it. So we'd talk about how the others kids had learned it, and what things she knew instead, and whether it was something that might come naturally as she got older... and went from there. I remember a bunch of kids telling her she was stupid when she was 7 because she didn't know any "multiplication facts", so we talked a little about multiplication and when the words the kids were using meant, and she worked out a few facts... and it happened a few years later with spelling, and I shared my beliefs that reading and spelling tended to be linked and that she'd become a better speller naturally without working much at it because she read so much... which is indeed what happened...

It sounds like several different things are being lumped together here. Yes, a kid could say "I'm stupid" when comparing themselves to age norms. For some kids it is a passing thing addressed by reassurance but for some kids that is a more enduring feeling that persists. Either way this is different than a kid declaring any activity that requires persistence to be "stupid" or activity that looks traditionally academic as "stupid" or responding to a parent sharing information as "stupid." All of these things are something parents really should pay attention to.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Dar 


 Would you interrupt a kid who had been spending hours immersed in, say, Plato's Republic?

I not only would, I have. And, I feel confident my family would do the same for me. Sometimes it is time to get up, move, cook a meal, interact with other people. Because somebody is enjoying something or getting some value from it doesn't mean it has a status that comes above all other needs for self and others.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Qalliope 

Does this clarify my position on the value of "leisure" activities vs. "academic" activities?  I was relating a specific experience with one specific child while trying ot be at least somewhat concise, not proclaiming this as what's right for every parent or child. And again, this arrangement is completely consensual and collaborative, participation is voluntary and optional. He asked for more guidance in science, reading, math, and Chinese because he really wants to be an engineer and he wants to study kung fu in China.  The one hour a day thing is helping him find jumping off points for projects and activities of his own choosing and helping him relax about his ability to get where he wants to go when he is grown.
 

Do you think there would have been any value in offering this as a consensual activity before he thought he was stupid or before he was in a dark place?

While I think it is easy from adult perspective to say kids shouldn't embrace self judgement based on typical age expectation type rubrics, the reality is that it is not uncommon for kids to go there and stay there. I can think of several unschooling kids I know who entirely quit unschooling opting for the rigid online schooling because they really didn't see a middle zone. It was nothing or the closest version of what kids get in school. I wonder if having the option available for something else available earlier would have made a difference.

Originally Posted by Qalliope 

I feel it's important to note here that this isn't something I set for my son. It was a decision we made together and a direct response to his feeling that he could not effectively guide himself at this time and reach the (really big) goals he has for his future.  We made accommodation for the fact that his desire outstripped his ability in terms of knowing what he needs to learn.  I don't think expectation or habit of structured learning even in small amounts is necessary or even desirable for all children. My daughter (3yo) is his exact opposite.  She will spend all day in productive or thoughtful labors doing early math, picking up sight words, and memorizing the names of different types of animals, but she mostly likes to paint or draw or dance, and will likely want to go into a creative field where she will need fewer academic skills.  I have no doubt she will be able to get where she's going without much direction from me whatever she decides in the future.  And she is supremely confident in her decisions and ability.  My son has always been a totally different story. He is practical and a bit insecure and a huge perfectionist.  He's also attracted to highly technical and precise endeavors with little room for error. He has for the last few years persistently declared that he wants to be an engineer.  However he is often afraid to try new things and knows he will need more involvement in academic pursuits than he is naturally inclined to investigate on his own.  So we're working on those things together. This soothes his worries about the future.  For this specific type of child, it seems to be a good solution.   I don't think what unschoolers need in general is more structure.  I think what we need is more flexibility.  More intense involvement.  More embracing the times when emotions are running high because that's when we dig up the roots of our problems so we can more effectively look for a solution.
 

[Qalliope]

Originally Posted by Qalliope 

... My daughter (3yo) is his exact opposite.  She will spend all day in productive or thoughtful labors doing early math, picking up sight words, and memorizing the names of different types of animals, but she mostly likes to paint or draw or dance, and will likely want to go into a creative field where she will need fewer academic skills.  I have no doubt she will be able to get where she's going without much direction from me whatever she decides in the future.  And she is supremely confident in her decisions and ability...

Dang it, it sounds again like I am okay with her interests being what they are because they are (sometimes) academic. Since you took issue with that in my other post, Dar, I will state that this was an explanation of why I think I am unlikely to encounter the same scenario with her wanting to achieve something she thinks she would be unable to acquire the skills to do on her own. I'm talking about a match between desire and perceived ability. She doesn't struggle with that, and I don't think she will because of her natural persistence, confidence, and curiosity.  My son does struggle with that but it is getting much better as we work together toward that end.

Example: ds wants to skateboard.  He is better at it after 5 minutes of practice than I was after hours of trying, but he has to jump off at the end of the hill and he can't turn yet.  Result: He stops trying, not because he doesn't like it, because he can't see the possibility of progress.  He is slowly coming around to trying again. One perceived failure = months of discouragement.   DD wants to ride a big kid bike where she sits up and pedals.  I get her one, she tries for a while and stops.  She tells someone else she has a new bike but she can't pedal. She doesn't like that and immediately gets on her bike and tries again.  Repeat 3 to 4 times.  Now she can pedal. She wants to ride all the time.

[Qalliope]

Originally Posted by Roar 

Do you think there would have been any value in offering this as a consensual activity before he thought he was stupid or before he was in a dark place?

While I think it is easy from adult perspective to say kids shouldn't embrace self judgement based on typical age expectation type rubrics, the reality is that it is not uncommon for kids to go there and stay there. I can think of several unschooling kids I know who entirely quit unschooling opting for the rigid online schooling because they really didn't see a middle zone. It was nothing or the closest version of what kids get in school. I wonder if having the option available for something else available earlier would have made a difference.

I don't see a reason to correct a problem that doesn't exist.  I see a need to address issues honestly as they arise.  I did offer the possibility of extra guidance and ideas from me prior to this point,  but there was no clear need there at that time. There was no reason for him to get on board and stay there.

I don't have a problem with societal expectations motivating kids to try different educational modes.  I have concerns about societal expectations diminishing a person's capacity to try because they feel they are inherently unworthy.  That is wrong; it is a lie, and I have clearly identified it as such to my kids. I don't know if that message will stick no matter how many times I say it, but I don't think education method has much to do with whether or not they recognize their own worth.  Schooled or not, they can bring home that if they are not like someone else, they are just plain no good.  Some people struggle with self-worth more than others and need more assurance of their value and their place in the world.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Qalliope 

I don't see a reason to correct a problem that doesn't exist.  I see a need to address issues honestly as they arise.  I did offer the possibility of extra guidance and ideas from me prior to this point,  but there was no clear need there at that time. There was no reason for him to get on board and stay there.

I don't have a problem with societal expectations motivating kids to try different educational modes.  I have concerns about societal expectations diminishing a person's capacity to try because they feel they are inherently unworthy. 

It seems to me that parents make all sorts of choices that are based at least in some way on a perception of risks - use a car seat, don't feed an infant hot dogs, etc.

I do have a concern about the perceived, or real, choices being no structured options or full time online cyber school. For a myriad of reasons I don't see full time online cyber school as an attractive option for an nine year old who is motivated by the belief they are stupid. For one, I don't think it is likely be effective in resolving that mistaken belief. And, of course the other version for some kids is to hit "I'm stupid" and as a self protective strategy move quickly to "learning is stupid."

I agree with you that it is more of a challenge for some personality types than others. For a kid who is naturally more motivated, resilient, and confident they may need less direction. Kids who tend to be more anxious and more perfectionistic, may shut down and stay shut down much more easily.