Regrets - Page 2

[Tigeresse]

Originally Posted by Roar 


As far as the idea that he could still be behind because look there are kids who went to school and they need remediation too, I personally don't feel that is a particularly strong or logical position. For one, the best math teaching effort of homeschooling should hopefully not be akin to the worst from public school nor should we presume learning disabilities any time a student doesn't learn something they not taught and may have devoted virtually no time to. Really, don't think we can have it both ways. If we are going to credit unschooling when kids turn out to be independent, creative, etc.when those things could have happened anyway, we need to take the lumps too.

The main reason I was motivated to post our situation here was to inform others who may be considering this path that all does not take care of itself when following this philosophy, and that not all kids are going to learn what they need when they "need" it to meet their goals. Heck, some kids may never have any goals beyond the "next level" in whatever game they are trying to master. Hopeful unschooling parents of young ones who get excited when their kids learn some simple fractions by cutting a pizza really need to hear this.

FWIW, My ds spent 2 afternoons per week this past semester in the learning center. He would then visit the teacher to go over the work he did with the tutors. He was involved in s study group as well. He has used ALEKS, as I believe that is or was required for some of his classes. He has taken the 1st semester of remedial Algebra twice, and now faces having to retake the 2nd semester. I do believe he let himself get a bit behind, and perhaps began tutoring a bit too late in the semester (I'm not sure when he began). He had gotten himself up to some "B's" on tests late in the semester, but he bombed the final (although he was very confident he had done well) and missed the "C" by 15 points.

I am quite sure that math would have never been his strong suit had he gone to school or was homeschooled more traditionally, but at least we would have had plenty of time to address issues and work a step at a time to achieve some reasonable competency. Instead it was just avoided (although I made several attempts to convince him to try it). So, I do have regrets that I did not "require" some work from him, especially in math. I feel it was my responsibility to facilitate his education, and I made the choice to unschool. That puts a lot more control in the hands of the student, but doesn't the buck ultimately stop with me when it was my decision to follow this approach in the the 1st place, even if it was my ds whose decisions about math led him to where he is today? He was a kid, he didn't know enough to ask me to work with him on math so he would be better prepared to get those requirements out of the way later on. He didn't have to do it so he didn't. I believed (hoped) he would take to math when he needed it, the way he had reading and writing. Just was not the case.

[pigpokey]

Well, there are about four main possibilities, no?

(1) His trouble is because of something he missed in childhood and adolescence -- and there was a window, so now his work is harder.  Well, I've not heard of that for basic remedial math, basic algebra, but ? 

(2) He can learn it as fine as he ever could, but the curriculum isn't right.  The pacing is too fast for him to retain mastery, or the sequencing is wrong, or another tutor might click better.  Or, and I doubt it, but the college might be doing constructivist math. 

(3) He is hindered by a learning disability that might play into #2, or a strong aptitude valley, we can't all be good at everything.  Was he all first person shooters, or could he do a good game of Tetris too? 

(4) If he'd done formal math as a homeschooler, he'd have spent, let's say, a thousand hours on it in K-12, and he really needs to spend 300 hours now as an adult to get to the same place, and he's not giving himself patience and credit for saving himself 700 hours.

I tutored math for many years, and I had some students who just needed the one-on-one to succeed.  And I had one student, of normal intelligence (ITBS subtests generally 50th-80th percentiles), who started coming to me in fourth or fifth grade for math to supplement her Catholic school instruction.  I would work with her for an hour or two a week, get her through the test each week, she could do it with help, but I didn't see as much mastery from year to year in 4th-6th.  Test to test only.  I only saw her periodically through junior high and high school, because I had babies then.  But she had the same problems ongoing, into college.  And I suspected later she should have been evaluated.  She's a stunning visual artist.  I think she may just have a deep valley where math is concerned.

[Roar]

I'm not sure how much of a factor this is for the original poster, but there is also a financial reality here for many families. Remedial college work can be expensive, but contribute no credits toward graduation. If a student needs extensive remediation they can hit up against credit limits for financial aid. Some families can support their kids into their 20s and their kids feel okay about it. But for many of us that's not a financial option and kids may want to be independent when they see their friends have these capabilities.

When the student has put the formal work in and hasn't been able to learn it, then you know to investigate a learning disability. If they haven't had the foundation, it makes it very difficult to make those kinds of investigations. It seems odd to me to give a great deal of weight to the validity of the feelings of a ten year old's disinterest in math, but if when an eighteen year old is in distress because they can't pass courses and see a huge long road ahead, it seems like the reaction is to dismiss them as not trying hard enough or not being willing to do what is necessary or being overly interested in blaming their parents.

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by Roar 

I wasn't sure from the OP's post if she met with big resistance or intense conflict. I just got that she accepted the notion that math would take care of itself through baking or video games or whatever and now it appears this was not the case. Facing an adult who is working 4th grade math she feels the not doing something more structured earlier was a mistake.

My notion was that perhaps the idea that resistance and daily conflict and negotiation reflects something that is not working. I wonder if it is really a natural part of human children to feel so resistant to guidance or to the idea of pursuing something that was not originally their own idea. Should that really be a daily judgement call? Or, is being in the place where that's such a negotiation suggest that some core emotional and social skills are not being developed? This may feel like a logical way to live when your kids are little, but as they get older your attempts to attempts to "entice" them or tell them how you feel sad when they don't choose your book - that may not be a place you want to be.

As far as the idea that he could still be behind because look there are kids who went to school and they need remediation too, I personally don't feel that is a particularly strong or logical position. For one, the best math teaching effort of homeschooling should hopefully not be akin to the worst from public school nor should we presume learning disabilities any time a student doesn't learn something they not taught and may have devoted virtually no time to. Really, don't think we can have it both ways. If we are going to credit unschooling when kids turn out to be independent, creative, etc.when those things could have happened anyway, we need to take the lumps too.

I do agree that daily conflict points to something that is not working.  Plain old resistance now and then?  That's just kids, or every kid I know.  Resistance to guidance in general?  Some kids are like that.  Resistance to guidance in a particular area?  Some kids are like that too.  My own daughter is resistant and stubborn in some areas, and yes, I am always vigilant to the root cause of this, in case it's not just a personality quirk.  And I am well aware of the limitations of comparing a young unschooling family with unschooling teenagers.

So, my reassurance to Tigresse was unnecessary, that she shouldn't second guess herself, as she has already decided what she would rather have done.  Personally, I think that 19 is a little young to definitively decide what did and didn't work.  But, no big deal, it is just an opinion.  I also pointed out, in my earlier post, when she mentioned her son only wanting a teacher to push math that, in my definition of unschooling, that would have been totally appropriate.  Apparently, she rejected that idea (OK, Tigresses, my brain feels like it's patched together with silly putty at the moment, so please correct me if I've blanked out here) and he rejected her help.

While my arguments might not have been strong (I'm not agreeing necessarily, just letting that one go), I disagree that they were not logical.  And, what exactly do you mean when you write "the best math teaching effort of homeschooling should hopefully not be akin to the worst from public school"?  Are you referring to Tigresse's effort being akin to the worst from public school?  I'm guessing because I just don't really know what you were saying if not.    (that's my little coffee emoticon, showing that I am perfectly aware that my brain might not be fully functioning without caffeine.  But please, I've read the sentence several times and am still trying to work it out.)

I agree, unschooling is not perfect, not insignificantly because there is no perfect kid, perfect family, perfect situations.  Kids resist.  Don't yours?  Even on trivial things?  And parents choose how they respond to resistance.  My mother responded the way she did because she developed a parenting philosophy based on (and opposed to) her own upbringing my her meddlesome busybody of a mother.  Other mothers base their decisions on the fact that they are unschooling and they have a particular idea of what that entails. 

If I were in the same position, having made the same decisions, (and again, I'm not saying this was the best decision, but far, far from the worst) I would come to a different conclusion than Tigresse did.  (For now-- that's years down the road for my family!)  And I don't think I would be any more right or wrong.  I would see this as a situation that to remedy properly, the child needs to be fully on board.  Having made the decision to reject the help I offered I would expect him to take full responsibility to remedy this and not lay the responsibility for it fully on my lap.  I treated his decisions with respect, even though in the end I might have thought they were not the best decisions.  And whether or not I felt my decisions based on that respect were the best ones, he needs to see that they were out of respect for him and stop passing the the full burden of blame on me.  That's a key part of becoming a mature adult, claiming responsibility for the outcome of the rest of your life.  This struggle he is currently experiencing and his chosen path to remedy it could be the most transformative experience of his life for all he knows.  

Tigresse is choosing to shoulder the burden of this challenge onto herself, and on her former faith in her homeschooling philosophy.  All debates asides, it's good to hear how a mom who took this path to the finish feels about her experience, and letting other parents know how her ideal philosophy was transformed by it.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Roar 

As far as the idea that he could still be behind because look there are kids who went to school and they need remediation too, I personally don't feel that is a particularly strong or logical position. For one, the best math teaching effort of homeschooling should hopefully not be akin to the worst from public school nor should we presume learning disabilities any time a student doesn't learn something they not taught and may have devoted virtually no time to. Really, don't think we can have it both ways. If we are going to credit unschooling when kids turn out to be independent, creative, etc.when those things could have happened anyway, we need to take the lumps too.

<shrug> I'm not trying to have it both ways, personally.  After all, I'm a creative independent person who went through 17 years of traditional schooling.

I got the impression from the OP that her ds has been taking classes and trying to do well, asking for a tutor, etc.  It sounds like he's expressing that he wishes he had done this before simply so it would be done and he wouldn't have to do it now.  I wish my parents were able to teach me a second language when I was young so I'd know it now and not really remember any effort involved.  Oh well.  It's not their fault and it is my problem if I want to get fluent.  It also sounds like the OP's ds has been actually trying to master remedial math and not succeeding despite actual classes and a tutor so I don't think looking at learning differences is unreasonable.  It's either that, or he simply isn't good at math, or he isn't trying.  If he were naturally good at math, he wouldn't need much in the way of study skills.  It would just make sense.  People that are average at math benefit from studying and it could be he falls into that category and lacks the study skills.  People who just don't think mathematically should perhaps be guided to non-math fields.  Lord knows my dh fits into that category despite his years of traditional schooling.

Through unschooling math, I expect my ds will know how to get along in the world and manage his finances.  I don't expect he'll just be able to enter college and magically do well at calculus. 

[Roar]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

And, what exactly do you mean when you write "the best math teaching effort of homeschooling should hopefully not be akin to the worst from public school"?  Are you referring to Tigresse's effort being akin to the worst from public school?  I'm guessing because I just don't really know what you were saying if not.    (that's my little coffee emoticon, showing that I am perfectly aware that my brain might not be fully functioning without caffeine.  But please, I've read the sentence several times and am still trying to work it out.)

 

Sorry, if I was unclear... I wish I could multiquote but that function doesn't work for me.

My comment relates to the response that there are many kids who don't get math or end up in remedial work at community college. It seems to me that on some days unschoolers take this as a proof of the ills of public school - they have them for years and still fail to teach the basics. Look lots of kids don't get the stuff because most kids in remedial classes went to public school. On the flip side like in response to this poster, we see the large number of students who need remediation that her son would probably have needed it if he went to school. What I'm saying is that the best math education available through homeschooling really shouldn't be the same as the worst through public school. The two choices weren't the crappy public education that leads to the need for remedial classes or let's hope he learns it from making cookies. There was an option of a more formal approach at home and the poster wishes she would have incorporated some of that earlier.

As far as resistance, I do not see it as a central defining element of the educational experience for all children, but I often hear unschoolers defining it as such. When I read your description of your day about trying to "talk kids" into being read to, "enticing" them with pictures, talking about you feeling sad because they don't want to read a particular kind of book - for me that just sounds like a lot of energy and dancing around fear or resistance. My suggestion was that perhaps regular resistance (no matter how masterfully a parent works around it) is a sign of lack of development of core emotional and social skills that are foundational to learning. Just based on my observation of many children it is hard for me to see that unschooling typically lowers resistance or makes kids more open as time goes on. Instead it seems to sometimes reinforce an "it's all about me and what I want" attitude that over time develops more, not less, resistance. I don't know that it is an inherent thing in the approach of unschooling, but it is what I often see in practice.

As far as taking full responsibility, it sounds to me like the kid is going to the tutoring center twice and week and retaking remedial work. When he sees friends moving on to adult life and he's frustrated with this place where he's stuck for now, is he actually not allowed to feel upset with that? Just getting a bit behind in a math class can feel like digging out of a gigantic hole, but starting at the 4th grade level, that is discouraging. Is it totally unreasonable for a person to say as a child I didn't have an adult understanding of the implications of my choices, but you as an adult did and I wish you would have guided me more? To say to an adult "tough luck, shoulda listened to me and known better" seems sorta mean spirited.
 

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver Having made the decision to reject the help I offered I would expect him to take full responsibility to remedy this and not lay the responsibility for it fully on my lap.  I treated his decisions with respect, even though in the end I might have thought they were not the best decisions.  And whether or not I felt my decisions based on that respect were the best ones, he needs to see that they were out of respect for him and stop passing the the full burden of blame on me.  That's a key part of becoming a mature adult, claiming responsibility for the outcome of the rest of your life.  This struggle he is currently experiencing and his chosen path to remedy it could be the most transformative experience of his life for all he knows.

ITA

[Roar]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

If he were naturally good at math, he wouldn't need much in the way of study skills.  It would just make sense.  People that are average at math benefit from studying and it could be he falls into that category and lacks the study skills.  People who just don't think mathematically should perhaps be guided to non-math fields.  Lord knows my dh fits into that category despite his years of traditional schooling.

As a parent of a math major I totally disagree with you. Math success doesn't just happen by magic. Yes, understanding making snese of math is much easier for some people than for others. But, even for the people it is easy for it still requires work, completing assignments, being able to focus to study, ability to work through frustration, ability to use the written language of math, etc.

I don't really see the second language as comparable because for most of us living in the US, it is something that is optional. Math is required to complete a college degree and that includes fields where math is totally irrelevant. Not everyone has a college degree as a goal but the majority of people do.

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by Roar 

As far as resistance, I do not see it as a central defining element of the educational experience for all children, but I often hear unschoolers defining it as such. When I read your description of your day about trying to "talk kids" into being read to, "enticing" them with pictures, talking about you feeling sad because they don't want to read a particular kind of book - for me that just sounds like a lot of energy and dancing around fear or resistance. My suggestion was that perhaps regular resistance (no matter how masterfully a parent works around it) is a sign of lack of development of core emotional and social skills that are foundational to learning. Just based on my observation of many children it is hard for me to see that unschooling typically lowers resistance or makes kids more open as time goes on. Instead it seems to sometimes reinforce an "it's all about me and what I want" attitude that over time develops more, not less, resistance. I don't know that it is an inherent thing in the approach of unschooling, but it is what I often see in practice.

As far as taking full responsibility, it sounds to me like the kid is going to the tutoring center twice and week and retaking remedial work. When he sees friends moving on to adult life and he's frustrated with this place where he's stuck for now, is he actually not allowed to feel upset with that? Just getting a bit behind in a math class can feel like digging out of a gigantic hole, but starting at the 4th grade level, that is discouraging. Is it totally unreasonable for a person to say as a child I didn't have an adult understanding of the implications of my choices, but you as an adult did and I wish you would have guided me more? To say to an adult "tough luck, shoulda listened to me and known better" seems sorta mean spirited.
 

I didn't mean in my description of my day to give the impression that I spend the entire day enticing and talking them into things.  I definitely said that my interest and excitement in so many things leads me to introduce a lot of parent-led activities.  I do dance around resistance sometimes, somedays more than others.  I studied Aikido for many years, and "dancing around resistance" is one way you could describe it.  In that training, I learned that that dance is not really backing off or giving in, but holding the center and bringing energy into balance-- whoops! I'm not really sure I should be bringing up something so new at this point in the debate.  Bottomline: not every moment, every decision in my day is based on avoiding resistance, or anything to do with it.  I never meant that and I didn't mean to imply that.  Was my point really that obscure?

I get your point about regular resistance, and I agree that one possibility is that something is missing in their core development.  I also believe that some kids are just naturally prone to this kind of thing (not that the OP was ever saying hers was--mainly on this one issue) and if it is a deficiency in their core emotional development, then some are particularly sensitive to it.  I see both my girls, and they are very different in some profound ways.  DD2 plays and works alongside me regularly and often, dd1, not so much.  Different outcomes, same house.  

I also agree with you and with pps that unschooling can often lead to "me and now" problems.  Not all the time, but they can.  I agree about empathy and delayed gratification.

To me, there is a wide divide between a parent refusing to shoulder all the blame, and saying "tough luck, kid".  And nowhere did I refuse to acknowledge the understandable feelings that her son is going through.  I stated, or implied, that to put all the blame on his mother is immature.  Age appropriate, perhaps, but immature nonetheless.  Perhaps the truth is in the grey area, where he does put some blame on himself at the same time wishing his mother would have pushed him harder.  I get that (my, oh, my, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't get that.)  But it comes across that the blame for his current struggles was placed full-square on his mother.  And his mother puts the blame full square on her trusting to her idea of unschooling.  

I think you are taking what I write and stretching them to the ends of possibility.  Guidance and resistance become "any guidance" or resistance.  dealing with resistance becomes "dancing around resistance" for fear of meeting it head on.  Insisting on not shouldering the entire burden of the situation becomes "tough luck, kid".  Please read what I write more carefully before you extrapolate my meaning for your own ends.  Please reread my earliest posts to understand where I began.

A last point-- I am unclear as to when her son asked for a teacher for math, but in her place, I think I would have agreed and hired the teacher if were in my means.  And I would still call my style unschooling, and would agree with another parent if they did the same.  And if someone more radical than I disagreed with the label?  Well, fine, read my signature down below. I would dance around that resistance and let it go.  (Actually, *that* might need to be the new one!)

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Roar 

I don't really see the second language as comparable because for most of us living in the US, it is something that is optional. Math is required to complete a college degree and that includes fields where math is totally irrelevant. Not everyone has a college degree as a goal but the majority of people do.

Aren't foreign languages required at most 4 year colleges?  One doesn't need to be fluent but neither does one need to do much higher math, either, for some majors.

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

To me, there is a wide divide between a parent refusing to shoulder all the blame, and saying "tough luck, kid".  And nowhere did I refuse to acknowledge the understandable feelings that her son is going through.  I stated, or implied, that to put all the blame on his mother is immature.  Age appropriate, perhaps, but immature nonetheless.  Perhaps the truth is in the grey area, where he does put some blame on himself at the same time wishing his mother would have pushed him harder.  I get that (my, oh, my, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't get that.)  But it comes across that the blame for his current struggles was placed full-square on his mother.  And his mother puts the blame full square on her trusting to her idea of unschooling.

Exactly, I'm sympathetic that math is a struggle.  But if I've guided and suggested things to my ds that he has refused, I'm not going to be riddled with guilt.  I'm letting him be responsible for his choices while he is young so this won't be a huge leap for him when he is 19.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

Aren't foreign languages required at most 4 year colleges?  One doesn't need to be fluent but neither does one need to do much higher math, either, for some majors.

It is not uncommon for students to have had no foreign language before college or to start an entirely new foreign language in college. As a result the sequence starts with 101 and students receive college credit for totally introductory courses that presume no previous knowledge. This is totally different from math. In math students are expected to have already completed a k-12 math education. Anything below college algebra is considered remedial. Remedial courses typically cost the same but do not result in credits that can be used toward graduation. They still count against financial aid limits though. Colleges, including community colleges, typically require proficiency at the level of at least college algebra. More and more majors now require calculus including many that didn't used to.

Edited by Roar - 12/21/11 at 1:32pm

[Tigeresse]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 



A last point-- I am unclear as to when her son asked for a teacher for math, but in her place, I think I would have agreed and hired the teacher if were in my means.  And I would still call my style unschooling, and would agree with another parent if they did the same.  And if someone more radical than I disagreed with the label?  Well, fine, read my signature down below. I would dance around that resistance and let it go.  (Actually, *that* might need to be the new one!)

What happened was that ds had already taken several classes at the CC, but we knew he would at some point need to take the placement test and begin math classes there. I purchased a full set of "Key To" workbooks as well as the study guide for the placement test and explained to him that he should at least get through some of these things before taking the test. He did not do them, and came to me at some point saying he wanted to take the test blind and just start at ground zero with the remedial classes because he would not do the work without someone making him do it, ie a teacher. He later told me that even though these are basic classes, because most other students had attended public school they already had a working knowledge of the subject matter which he did not have and was often lost before the class even got started. He did manage to pass the fundamentals class, but the algebra proved quite difficult, and that's when we hired the tutor. We were only able to have her for a few months, but I told ds he really needed to investigate the free tutoring at the CC, which he finally did this semester.

Also, I wanted to mention that ds has never blamed me for his situation, I have managed to do that all by myself . He knows I presented him with options, including attending school if he wanted to. He has said things like he wishes he had done the work all along, and he has been a bit vocal with his siblings, esp his gaming younger brothers, about "doing other things". Where I feel I shoulder the responsibility is in that I made the decision to pursue education for my children in this manner. I chose unschooling over curriculum, public school, Montessori, Waldorf, and all my other options. I chose on the kids behalf, because they are (were) too young to choose. How can I now let him assume full responsibility for the corner I helped to paint him into?

I realize this is not the end of the world and when he's 50 it will be pretty irrelevant how long it took him to get through his math requirements. However, when choosing how to educate my children, I did not purposely choose something that might result in an ill-prepared and unconfident student. I chose something I thought would open doors for them that traditional schooling could not, and granted it can for some kids. But unschooling as a method does not "work" for all kids in all families in all situations, unless of course you define as "working" as "anything goes". If you define "working" as coming out with an education comparable or better than would have been achieved in a more formal setting then unschooling might not be the right choice for you because you are thinking too much in school terms.

All ranting aside, I do appreciate everyone's thoughtful posts and am enjoying, for lack of a better word, the discussion as a whole.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

I didn't mean in my description of my day to give the impression that I spend the entire day enticing and talking them into things.  I definitely said that my interest and excitement in so many things leads me to introduce a lot of parent-led activities.  I do dance around resistance sometimes, somedays more than others.  I studied Aikido for many years, and "dancing around resistance" is one way you could describe it.  In that training, I learned that that dance is not really backing off or giving in, but holding the center and bringing energy into balance-- whoops! I'm not really sure I should be bringing up something so new at this point in the debate.

Bottom line for me: When mom is dancing around resistance, kids are learning something from that. For me, it isn't something I want them to be learning about learning and their responsibility in that process.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by Roar 

As a parent of a math major I totally disagree with you. Math success doesn't just happen by magic. Yes, understanding making snese of math is much easier for some people than for others. But, even for the people it is easy for it still requires work, completing assignments, being able to focus to study, ability to work through frustration, ability to use the written language of math, etc.

I don't really see the second language as comparable because for most of us living in the US, it is something that is optional. Math is required to complete a college degree and that includes fields where math is totally irrelevant. Not everyone has a college degree as a goal but the majority of people do.

Actually, the foreign language is comparable, but in a way that supports the OP and your point:   It is a demonstrated fact that it is much harder to learn a foreign language as an adult than it is as a child. 

A child whose parents make the decision to expose the child to foreign language instruction is at an advantage as an adult, compared to other adults whose parents did not push the issue of foreign language instruction.   Even if the parents don't push so hard as to force the issue to fluency, someone with exposure and instruction while the language parts of their brain are still plastic is going to have a much easier time of it later.

As someone who struggles with *some* parts of math and has other math concepts come easily (and who considered biing a math major and took 5 semesters of honors math in college), I know that there are things you can pick up quickly as an adult, even if you haven't seen them before.  But the thing is that many of those things rest on other concepts, which in turn rest on other concepts ... so if you don't have *any* of the base concepts, you have to work through them befor eyou can "just get" the higher order stuff.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by savithny 

Actually, the foreign language is comparable, but in a way that supports the OP and your point:   It is a demonstrated fact that it is much harder to learn a foreign language as an adult than it is as a child. 

Well, except that a native accent is generally only possible if exposure takes place prior to adolescence, it's not as much a "demonstrated fact" as most people believe. Children's lives tend to set up so that they do a lot more language learning work. They are thrust into it in a way adults aren't. Immigrant children spend 30 hours a week in total immersion at school, while their parents may get some immersion in the workplace, but likely much less and of a poorer learning quality -- no directed teaching, no repetition of simple words and phrases, no systematic building on their skills by teachers involved in their lives on a daily basis. Children's vocabularies are sufficient for daily life if they have a few thousand words. Adults tend to be held to much higher standards for language proficiency. If you do your best to equalize all the factors, to give adults as immersive an experience and hold them to the same expectations as children, there's very little if any difference in the speed of acquisition.

Basically, children's lives tend to be highly conducive to language learning, whereas it is much harder for an adult to lead a life of such complete immersion. 

I believed the same as you until I read a detailed analysis of this several years ago and was impressed by the evidence. Do you think I can find the link now? But there are a bunch of articles out there, like this and this, that say similar things.

Miranda

[onatightrope]

I've read the thread, and it's been really interesting.  OP, FWIW, everyone I know with a child your son's age has regrets, whether they sent their kids to school, did school-at-home, or something else.  I'm not minimizing your son's struggles, or your feelings, I know they are real.  But, as someone who is not yet at that stage, I'm starting to wonder if part of the regrets I hear so many of my friends express is that you feel like you ought to be "finished" raising your son, and so you're evaluating what you did and how it went, and maybe you're being harder on yourself than you ought to be?

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by Roar 

Bottom line for me: When mom is dancing around resistance, kids are learning something from that. For me, it isn't something I want them to be learning about learning and their responsibility in that process.

In my home, my kids are not looking for ways to manipulate me at every moment.  When I decide to not meet resistance head on, they are learning that there are other ways to look at the situation.  They are learning to be respectful towards other people.  They are learning they are not cattle to be herded into a particular slot.  When I choose to circumvent a fight, or wait until I decide I need to address it head on, or wait until I know the best way to address it, or even change my mind, they are learning that parents are not unthinking brick walls.  They are learning not to think this way themselves.  They are learning how to deal with others in a conflict situation.  I don't want there to be different categories about how respectfully to treat people.  I act the way I hope my kids will act.  My kids are not sneaky little tyrants looking for anything resembling weakness so that they can get their way.  

Yes, that was a rant.

Tigresse, thank you for clarifying those points for me and telling your story in more detail.  I agree that unschooling is not for every person, every family.  That's partly how so many families wind up with some amalgamation of styles, drop the unschooling label and call it eclectic.  I also agree that everybody has a different definition of "working" and "success".  
 

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Tigeresse 
Also, I wanted to mention that ds has never blamed me for his situation, I have managed to do that all by myself . He knows I presented him with options, including attending school if he wanted to. He has said things like he wishes he had done the work all along, and he has been a bit vocal with his siblings, esp his gaming younger brothers, about "doing other things". Where I feel I shoulder the responsibility is in that I made the decision to pursue education for my children in this manner. I chose unschooling over curriculum, public school, Montessori, Waldorf, and all my other options. I chose on the kids behalf, because they are (were) too young to choose. How can I now let him assume full responsibility for the corner I helped to paint him into?

Sadly, raising children is a bit of an experiment, especially with the first born <hug>.  You can do everything as right as you know how, whether it be unschooing or traditional schooling, and end up with kids that aren't quite as confident and prepared for the world as you hope.  But I'm sure the things your ds has learned about unconditional love, respect, and problem solving will stand him in good stead. 
 

[Qalliope]

I'm curious, Tigresse, if you had these feelings all along, that the path you were on was inadequate? You seem to be handling things well from what you have described. But your son's choice to wait to learn anything beyond basic math until it was important to something else he wanted to pursue seems to be a sticking point for you, at least in terms of seeing unschooling as a valid or worthwhile educational method. My understanding is that this is how unschooling is supposed to work. He's struggling a lot, and it is stressful, and I get that.  He followed his interests through childhood. Now he hits a stumbling block as he approaches his transition into the adult world. He comes to you to help navigate around or over that wall using the resources you have available. Teamwork. It's not stopping him or intimidating him out of continuing his education. For many many many young adults, that kind of struggle leads them to just give up and try a path of less resistance. So he's cultivated both positive (perseverance) and negative (poor study habits) qualities through the years, any of which may have been influenced more by your choice to unschool or more by his personal temperament. 

Certainly the stage he is at in his development is proving difficult for both of you and seems to be a situation unusual to unschooling, unless others are going through similar and are too embarrassed to share their situation, or I am not looking in the right places. I do think your experience is valuable to the unschooling community just for the sake of knowing the range of outcomes, although I still think it is too early for a final verdict.  If he meets his goals in college and moves on to a fulfilling career/life, I would call that success, and I would be interested in hearing how he does as he progresses through the math classes and tutoring offered by his college.

I am not clear on why you were unschooling and what you thought you would get out of it.  What goals did you hope to meet in your son's education? And did you achieve those specific goals? Do you perceive the problem to be that unschooling was simply not as advertised or that your priorities, in hindsight, were not as they should have been?  I am interested in your insights on this, in part because, the picture as painted is, "We unschooled; everything seemed to be going great until my son went on to college; I thought he would just 'get it'; that didn't happen; now I'm unhappy with unschooling."  I see plenty of, "We tried unschooling; it didn't fit with our needs and priorities; we moved on to something different."  But I never see the former, so I find it really intriguing? concerning? perplexing? that things turned out this way for you.  I guess what I am most wondering is what advice you would give either to a parent just starting on this path or to your past self. If you could go back in time, what, exactly, would you do differently?

My goal in my children's education is for them to gain practice and experience in making choices that are right for them as individuals, to let their ambition be fueled by their passions rather than a sense of obligation, to recognize the sheer vastness of what there is to do and see and learn about in the world, and to show them that (nearly) any goal can be reached with enough focus and determination.  Unschooling seemed to be the best way to get those messages across. It's hard for me to know because I'm not in your situation, but I don't think I would be troubled if my son were having the same difficulties as yours because he seems to have integrated the lessons and values I try hardest to teach.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

In my home, my kids are not looking for ways to manipulate me at every moment.  When I decide to not meet resistance head on, they are learning that there are other ways to look at the situation.  They are learning to be respectful towards other people.  They are learning they are not cattle to be herded into a particular slot.  When I choose to circumvent a fight, or wait until I decide I need to address it head on, or wait until I know the best way to address it, or even change my mind, they are learning that parents are not unthinking brick walls.  They are learning not to think this way themselves.  They are learning how to deal with others in a conflict situation.  I don't want there to be different categories about how respectfully to treat people.  I act the way I hope my kids will act.  My kids are not sneaky little tyrants looking for anything resembling weakness so that they can get their way.  

????  Not sure where all the words like manipulation, cattle, brickwalls, tyrants, etc. is coming from.

My point was just that to me mom dancing around resistance, manipulating kids into reading a particular book by talking about how she's sad if they don't, etc.... For me personally that feels like a lot of effort to try to make learning palatable as though there is something wrong with learning. It has been my observation this often leads to mom burn out and kids who are pretty me centered and put excessive weight into personal preferences (often of things they've not yet even experienced so they don't actually know). If every little learning opportunity feels like such a big thing, it can feel like a weight to carry.