Estranged mother- WWYD

[Partaria]

A note to the Mods- I don't know if this should go in the mental health forum instead. Please move if you think it shouldn't be here.

Oh wise oracle that is the MDC boards, I need some advice. It’s about my mom.

Here’s the situation.

I’m 30. I became a mother for the first time 7 months ago. I have a beautiful son with my husband, who is my best friend and the love of my life. We have a happy home and family.

I grew up in a not very happy home with a really really insane family. My mother always had rage issues and was emotionally and verbally abusive. My dad was a workaholic. When I was 9, my parents divorced, and it was not amicable. I am much younger than my other siblings (two brothers) and was living at home alone with my mother. The divorce sent her further off the deep end than ever. The next 8 years saw her become violent, and she became more abusive emotionally and verbally. My mother was enmeshed with me. She began sleeping in my bed with me after my dad left, and wouldn’t allow me to sleep alone until I put a lock on my door at age 16. She didn’t want me to go to college because she didn’t want me to “leave her,” despite the fact that my brothers were both in college and she and my father were both college educated.  All I ever wanted to do was make her “better” and happy. But at age 17, with her standing between me and college, and with me battling anorexia (that I have no doubt was exacerbated by her required morning weigh-ins during my teen years), I finally snapped and decided I couldn’t take it anymore. I sat her down and said, “I love you,  but you are ill and you need help. You get mad and break things in the house and then don’t remember why they’re broken. You hit. You are angry all the time. You are sad all the time. I cannot fix that for you. I need for you to get help for yourself. If you do, we can have a relationship. If not, we can’t. I’m moving out now. Today. Right after I get up from the kitchen table here with you.”

And that was one of the last times I saw her. I went to college that fall, and got cards and letters from her nearly every day. They devastated me because they made me feel like I was a huge a**hole for having “abandoned” her. I was anorexic (I am 5ft5in and back then I weighed about 90 lbs) and suicidal. I was seeing a therapist but I was on the edge. I sent her a short letter that said she needed to be in therapy. I was in therapy, and I didn’t want communication with her until she decided to become a healthier person. So either therapy for her, or nothing at all between us.

That was over ten years ago. Over the years I still got things on Christmas or my birthday. I ignored them. When I got married in 2008, she somehow (probably through my oldest brother) got my husband’s name and birthday and sent him a birthday card. That was pretty creepy. But together, DH and I decided it would be best to simply ignore that too. We didn’t want her to get a rise out of us. That seemed like what she wanted.

In May, my son was born.

A week ago, I came home to a package on our doorstep addressed directly to my son from my mother.

I had a panic attack and all I could manage to say over and over was “She wrote his NAME. She wrote his NAME. Oh my god she wrote my son’s NAME.” There was something about seeing his name in her handwriting that made me feel powerless and afraid again, like the little girl that used to hide in closets from her. I kept thinking, ‘It’s all going to happen again and I will be powerless to stop it.’

Once I got hold of myself, I realized that none of that is true. I am a grown woman who has spent 8 of the last 13 years in therapy. I am healthy and strong and I know what I’m about. My son will never have the childhood that I did.

But this leaves the matter of what to do about my mother and the package. I have thought of writing “refused” on it and sending it back through the mail. But honestly, that seems mean, even to do to someone like her. I mean these are gifts for her grandson and I’m going to just throw them back in her face? Seems wrong. Despite all she did to me, I have no desire to see her hurt. I just want my relationship with her to be over. I’ve wanted that for years.

I’ve thought of writing her again and saying that she is not welcome to contact my son. That I’ve been patient for 13 years now but I really truly want the letters and packages to cease. But of course, I think in her mind she will experience that as, ‘I FINALLY got a reply. Guess this tactic is working.’

Part of me fears how crazy she might be now. Would she one day just show up at my son’s school or daycare? I really cannot have that, as I don’t think she’s safe to be around children, not to mention the emotional crap it would put my kid through to just have unknown grandma appear.

DH suggests that we call a lawyer and see what our options are to get this all stopped. But honestly I don’t even know if I want to do that. I don’t want to fight with my mother. I just want the poison that she brings to those around her to be kept away from me and those I love. That’s all.

But, I also think that as a mother, it is my job to nurture, guide, and protect. The protection part seems important in this situation. I don’t want her near my son. I understand she has a grandson she’s not met, and that’s got to feel awful. And I’m sorry for that, but I don’t see any other way for things to be.

What do I do? 

[seawitch]

That is a tough situation. Like, really crazy-tough. I think this is one instance in which a reply is probably needed. I really don't know how I would go about it without encouraging her more. But I think her near-stalking will just escalate without you addressing her. It would be really tough to face her, and I would totally not do it with only you two there. Perhaps having your DH there, with your baby not there though... and not in your house, but at a neutral spot in public where things are less likely to escalate. I would definitely want to know how she's getting info on you. Does she live in the same town as you? Are you going to run into her by-accident-on-purpose? I don't know if I would seek legal counsel just like that but I would try to meet her and be as neutral as possible. Then afterwards I would maybe write her very non-emotional, brief, perfunctory notes or emails, and if she got emotional give her a warning and then tune her out. I imagine it'd be VERY hard to do so. I don't think you can just erase her completely but I commend you for moving on with your life despite it all, and learning how to un-internalize her mental health issues. You have my admiration for working so hard to move on! And congrats on the baby and the husband as well, it sounds like you finally have the family you deserved.

[laohaire]

I'm sorry.

I think Gavin deBecker says that no contact, period, is the best way. He said something like "if your stalker attempts to contact you 25 times and then you respond telling them not to contact you anymore, your stalker learns that the cost of getting contact from you is 25 attempts." I am not sure if refusing the package or not is the better way - in a sense, seeing your word "refused" and getting the package back might feel like a sort of contact. I am leaning toward not refusing it and just having it disappear into the void (from your mother's perspective). Your mother will never know if it reached you. Well, it will be a good assumption it did but she will never really know so it will feel like an empty wall.

I'm sorry she disturbs your peace.

If you ever move in the future, perhaps set up a PO box and give that address to your siblings and anyone who might be in contact with them - so your mother doesn't end up with your home address. Obviously she may still continue to send packages or whatever, but it might feel less shocking. Also your husband could agree to monitor the PO box and just quietly chuck anything from her, and not even mention it to you - keeping your peace.

[seawitch]

That's interesting. FWIW I've had a different sort of experience with a stalker. I had a stalker but it was NOT a parent. In that case, I agree that I should have had no contact whatsoever, that any contact encouraged him.

However, I don't know if that holds true to the OP's mother. Don't some states have things like grandparents' rights (or something like that) where the grandmother could, in theory, have a court order to get in touch with the child? I'm totally not sure, I just heard rumors of something like that happening in I think Texas. And what I would find creepy is not knowing HOW my mother found out where I was.

In my situation I ran away from the situation altogether, and quite foolishly so. I gave up my whole life at the time so I wouldn't have my peace shattered, and it still felt like I was always looking over my shoulder, because I didn't know for sure where he was, how much he knew, etc. I kept imagining seeing him in places. In hindsight I think I would have done better to face him. I think if your stalker is potentially dangerous then that's different. It sounds, to me, that the OP's mother is not necessarily dangerous (although the rage is definitely scary) but rather that she's being very needy and wants acknowledgment, and possibly will escalate things until she gets that acknowledgment. I don't know. =/ Like I said, it's tough...

OP, do you still have contact with any counselors? Do you think you could ask one for advice?

[laohaire]

I don't know. You're saying that she is looking for acknowledgement, and suggest that she will rest once she gets it.

I assume she is looking for a relationship. One response will feel like she's getting in the door to a relationship. She may redouble her efforts at that point, encouraged by the knowledge that she is getting through.

I think the OP clearly cut off her mother years ago, so it's not like it's unclear. It's clear - her mother just doesn't respect it.

That's how I see it anyway. I admit I don't have personal experience.

[seawitch]

I'm not trying to argue with you. I do see your point as well and who knows, it might be completely right. There's so many angles to this situation, and we've only heard like a little snippet of the OP's history.

[Partaria]

Thanks, ladies. I appreciate the feedback!

She's dangerous in that she, at least when I knew her, would lose touch with reality. Here's a small example. Once when I was about 12, I spilled something. She got enraged and pushed me. I hit a chair (that was really wobbly to begin with, yes) and the chair collapsed when I sort of fell onto it. So I ended up on my butt on the floor with this broken chair around me.

The next day she said to me, "Did you see that the chair finally broke?" I said, "uh.....yeaaah." And she said "well when did that happen?" I have no idea if she knew and was just screwing with me, or if she really honestly forgot what she'd done only the previous day. She also has fantasies about death and dying, and at one point told me, when I was 14, that she was praying that god would "take her home" so she wouldn't be in pain anymore, and wouldn't it be great if he took me at the very same time so we could be together in heaven? I remember thinking 'no, that wouldn't be great. I'm still young and not ready to die.'

She's been known to send people, my father and people from high school who "wronged" her (she's sixty now) included, anonymous letters and packages in the mail. So that's a little creepy.

I mean, I don't really want to laundry list everything that happened. It would take volumes. I just don't feel like she's safe, and I think she might be capable of just showing up to try to see my son at some point. And I really hope that grandparents' rights thing isn't real because....holy s**t that would be awful. As for getting my address...she visits my oldest brother and routinely snoops through his things. It doesn't surprise me she's come across our address. 

I mostly just wonder if I'm being a horrible person for not letting her see my kid. I mean, I could supervise visits I guess. But then the other part of me rears up and says, "she's DANGEROUS. you wouldn't let him play with lead toys, why would you let him play with her?"

Oh, and also- yes, I do have a therapist currently, but she's been on holiday for the past month. I'll see her again in two weeks and this will surely take up most of our hour. :) I just feel that a line has been crossed by my mother in sending something to my baby son, and I feel like it calls for a sea change in how I deal with her. So, I'm doing lots of soul searching and asking for perspective from smart people I know, which includes MDC mamas! 

[A&A]

You are being a SMART mama to keep your toxic mother away from your son.  Keep repeating that to yourself.   If possible, I'd move far away and not give your siblings your new home address.  (The PO Box idea is a good one.)  

[jess in hawaii]

My experience is not quite as extreme, but I hope I can offer some help and perspective...

Although my mother was not quite so outrageous, she is/was incredibly overbearing, very controlling and emotionally abusive. I moved out before I turned 18. Over the years I had varying amounts of contact with her, ranging from fairly frequent phone calls to basically nothing for a couple of years at a time. When my eldest son was born when I was 23, I didn't even tell her (at this point she was living overseas and we had little contact). She found out when she called my house and my housemate told her. Within a year she was back in the States so she could be "Grandma". That was 17 years ago, and in the intervening years we have had our ups and downs. There have been times when I pretty much ignored her, times when I put up with her a couple times a year so the kids could have some sense of a relationship (she had isolated me from my grandmother and I always resented it) and times when we have communicated regularly. Now she is back overseas and we are literally on opposite sides of the world, so it has made things easier. It doesn't mean that she doesn't ever bother me or get me upset, but at 41, I have been able to work through alot of stuff with/about her. Around a year ago we were talking pretty much every week often for an hour or two. It was difficult but healing. Granted it is a two way street... I have done so much personal healing and she is in a better place too, and that's what made it possible. And what came out was that I could hear her side, not her justifications, but her history of abuse and the things that affected her admittedly poor choices. I finally found compassion for her. Now, I do keep firm boundaries, don't get me wrong. I will ignore her calls if I don't feel like talking, I will tell her I don't want to continue certain conversations, I will delete her comments of facebook if she is particularly offensive, and I will tell her why. But I am at a place in my life where I no longer have to be that ashamed little girl, wondering what I have to do to make her happy. Now I am a full grown woman who can manage a relationship with her and feel empowered because of it. It took over 20 years, but I am glad that we made it through to this point, the healing was necessary.

Good luck Mama

[4midablemama]

I have an estranged parent with issues that sound very similar to your mothers'. I cut off contact almost 8 years ago, and except for the occasional condescending inquiries of my sister (she has only slightly more contact than I do) as to how his "problem child" is faring, he has so far not made any attempts to contact me. I don't think that I would even momentarily consider allowing him contact with my kids, if he ever decided that he wanted it; besides the fact that I would never, ever expose my children to the kind of poison that was forced on me, his wife (NOT my mother) is just as toxic as my father and quite possibly more unstable. I feel no obligation to allow either one of them the privilege of being a grandparent; my children have grandparents who have been in their lives since day one, they aren't suffering from the absence of my ex-father and step-monster.

Your primary loyalty is to your son. You are his protector, and if you truly believe that your mother could be a toxic influence on him, then I would not worry another second about responding to her overtures. Trash the present, forget it ever came, and do the same with anything else that arrives in the mail with her details on it. Her happiness is not your concern, your obligation is to your son's mental and physical well-being and your own hard-won peace of mind. 

[MariaMadly]

Lawyer up.  Think of it as retaining an attorney for your son.

[serenbat]

Oh, and also- yes, I do have a therapist currently, but she's been on holiday for the past month. I'll see her again in two weeks and this will surely take up most of our hour. :) I just feel that a line has been crossed by my mother in sending something to my baby son, and I feel like it calls for a sea change in how I deal with her. So, I'm doing lots of soul searching and asking for perspective from smart people I know, which includes MDC mamas! 

that's good, I think you will need it-----but, you may find you are not 100% correct 

a few things - first a lawyer is good if you do not have a will and a directive done yet for your son, a call to the police will also be helpful and a lot cheaper for somethings - you may find that sending the gift is not view as stalking (given what you have posted) and having a P.O. Box will do nothing, unless you plan to craw into a hole... information will get out, po's will not protect you- far from it, you will also need to think long term- unless you want your child to live in your hole your mother most likely will find out lots about your child and not just via the internet (think - local newspaper showing him in band or the local concert at school, FAMILY AND FRIENDS that do not agree with you, etc) not to mention (IMO) your mother found your address and knows tons via your family---a family member, close friend, etc----you will also need to cut all contact with most who you know so that no information gets passed to her - even if you think all those close to you understand I would bet money, someone very close to you told her the address and much more

also think about what relationships you want your child to have with your other family (his cousins-etc) and somewhere down the road you will need to address this with your child and regardless you only have control for a few short year here- your child can decide later to have contact (and in some states prior to 18)--" Wishes of the child" part of the law

I know a person on my DH's side that avoided contact for their child and that only lasted a a few (age 4!) and the child found out and started asking questions-very difficult questions

you have a lot to consider

one thing I don't see that you posted is viewing this a  gesture and your therapist may be better able to help you understand that

you are a NEW mother and somewhere down the line you will start to understand that no matter how awful your mother was to you - you will never know what happened to her and what caused her to act the way she did and by staying away you will not really learn and totally deal with the situation, some day your DS may want answers and may go looking and not from you 

I hope you therapist can better assist you in working through the long term outcome of this

Edited by serenbat - 12/28/11 at 5:41pm

[jess in hawaii]

[chrissy]

First of all, grandparents rights are very, very few, if any.  She absolutely does not have a legal right to see your son.  One thing I would do is make sure that you and your husband have a will and make sure that a guardian is named, in the very unlikely event that you both die while your son (and future children) are minors.

I think that you are totally within your rights to remain out of touch with your mother, and if I were in your shoes, I think that I would do that.  My MIL is somewhat toxic, though nothing like your mother, and we are struggling to find out how to balance things. 

Wishing you peace,

[serenbat]

First of all, grandparents rights are very, very few, if any.

the state the OP lists does allow grandparent's rights and a minor child can request to be allowed (if a judge agrees) to see the grandparents - a lawyer can  better explain this to the OP and if she and her DH would die there is no guarantee that the guardian would hold to the request - no judge follows the child around to see if the new guardian allows visitation or not

frankly the OP seems to have more problems then visitation going on

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by 4midablemama 

Your primary loyalty is to your son. You are his protector, and if you truly believe that your mother could be a toxic influence on him, then I would not worry another second about responding to her overtures. Trash the present, forget it ever came, and do the same with anything else that arrives in the mail with her details on it. Her happiness is not your concern, your obligation is to your son's mental and physical well-being and your own hard-won peace of mind. 

I totally agree with this.  You owe it to your son not to allow a relationship with your mom, OP.  I would ignore her. It doesn't sound like anything is going to stop her behavior and although it is unsettling, I doubt anything will ever come of it in terms of her showing up to see him.  She wouldn't even know what he looked like to find him.  Responding will probably just give her hope that if she is persistent enough she will be able to wear you down.  I wish you the best I dealing with her.  I have a toxic mom who regularly disturbs my sense of peace and well being as well.  

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Partaria 

But this leaves the matter of what to do about my mother and the package. I have thought of writing “refused” on it and sending it back through the mail. But honestly, that seems mean, even to do to someone like her. I mean these are gifts for her grandson and I’m going to just throw them back in her face? Seems wrong. Despite all she did to me, I have no desire to see her hurt. I just want my relationship with her to be over. I’ve wanted that for years.

.......Part of me fears how crazy she might be now. Would she one day just show up at my son’s school or daycare? I really cannot have that, as I don’t think she’s safe to be around children, not to mention the emotional crap it would put my kid through to just have unknown grandma appear.

1. I vote write "refused" and send it back. Because it's clear to her. Because anything else opens a door. Don't open the door. There is a mentally ill person on the other side of the door.

2. My kids are older than most of the kids whose moms post here, and I've filled out lots and lots of forms about who can pick up my child from various places like school, camp, etc. There is usually also a place to explicitly list people who are NOT allowed to pick up a child. Sadly, this is such a common issue (mostly because of custody issues rather than crazed grandparents) that it is something that you will find people understand and will abide by.

We sheltered the children from my sister's untreated mental illness when they were younger, and the information came out gradually. They are now teens and know the facts. It is possible to handle this one step at a time, in age appropriate ways.

Peace

[serenbat]

 She wouldn't even know what he looked like to find him.

I would bet the grandmother does already know what the child looks like---it's called other family and friends, unless the OP has not posted or given out any photos---people talk and show.

Legally the OP needs to understand there is a big difference between being toxic and being declared mentally ill- the OP herself is receiving mental heath help to some that would be view against the OP as well. words do matter if she pursues legal actions you can't just make false statements to authorities and expect that you are protected

no where has the OP posted the grandmother is declared mentally ill only that she views her one way- not saying other family members do

ETA - there is also nothing that the OP wrote to indicate any illegal action has occurred by the grandmother- the OP has not stated that she has taken (or if even warranted) against the mother - it is not illegal to send a letter or a package- there has to be a threat and nothing indicates that from what the OP has posted

it should be remembered anyone can sue for any reason - doesn't mean they would win (or be granted visitation) but it would show the DS later that the grandparent did try and have contact

also what do some of the poster expect a lawyer would do for the OP (besides do a will,etc)? There has been no indication that the grandmother has attempted to stalk or harm the DS and if that occurred it would be handled by the police. 

being upset by someone is one thing- that does not make it illegal- it makes it an issue you need to deal with and it seem the OP is seeking help for herself

I'm really shocked at some of the things suggested by other posters

Edited by serenbat - 12/29/11 at 6:18am

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

Legally the OP needs to understand there is a big difference between being toxic and being declared mentally ill- the OP herself is receiving mental heath help to some that would be view against the OP as well. words do matter if she pursues legal actions you can't just make false statements to authorities and expect that you are protected

There is a massive difference between seeing a counselor and being out of touch with reality. The OPer's mother seems to have complete breaks with reality as well as violent tendencies. I agree that LEGALLY there is next to nothing the OPer can do at this time because her mother hasn't done anything threatening most likely doesn't have a legal declaration of being insane. There isn't grounds for a restraining order.

Oddly, it's the sanest people in my family who see counselors. The really crazy ones refuse.

Also, my advice would be to keep your family life as private as possible. I think having a facebook page or posting photos on flicker or anything else like that is a bad idea -- it's too easy to forward stuff if someone (such as your brother) feels it is kinder to your mother to know what is going on in your life.

[serenbat]

 I have thought of writing “refused” on it and sending it back through the mail. 

There is a massive difference between seeing a counselor and being out of touch with reality.

reality is it's the real world - the package came via the mail (not stalking in any way here) not dropped off at the OP home by the mother - via the mail and as for finding out the name---it's simple even without the net! most people have it in the paper not to mention again- family & friends

I got a gift when my DS was born from a neighbor I didn't know, with his name on it - my first thought is not to jump to stalking--that's a BIG jump - IMO away from reality 

stuff is out there and again, unless you live in a hole

I find if odd that the OP would not think the mother would know?

It's not that I don't feel for the OP- I feel she is the one needing help here and not from a message board -she is going to therapy that is great!

I just can't see the BIG jump (stalking/ mother mentally ill) when nothing that was written indicates it.

It's sad that the OP is having a difficult time in dealing with this but nothing is abnormal or illegal here.