For the Herd's Sake, Vaccinate

[SusanElizabeth]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/28/opinion/for-the-herds-sake-vaccinate.html

This was an article from the New York Times 12/28/2011 about people who can't get vaccines because they have leukemia or other reasons for having a compromised immune system.  They are protected from getting diseases by those who can be vaccinated, and do so.  

"Young babies, the immuno-compromised and people who get chemotherapy are not able to process most vaccinations. Live vaccines in particular, like those for measles and chickenpox, can make us sick. But if 75 percent to 95 percent of the population around us is vaccinated for a particular disease, the rest are protected through what is called herd immunity. In other words, your measles vaccine protects me against the measles."

[purslaine]

I read the article.  I disagreed with the following points:

That Andrew Wakefield played a big part in the decision not to vaccinate.  I don't think that is true - although the pro-vax side likes to harp on about it because they can then harp on about how he is "discredited."

That the rise in measles and pertussis is linked to low vax rates.  While I get there are pockets with low vax rates, vaccine rates overall are very high.  I could look it up if need be.  Moreover, diseases have natural spikes in them - irregardless of vax rates.  A graph over many years that showed a decrease in vax rates and an increase in disease rates would be needed to prove that (and even then - correlative is not causation  - but it would be an inkiling).  I saw a really neat graph in Quebec a few days ago that tracked epidemics from 1600-1900's...and it was very easy to see the spikes in disease years  (much of the graph was pre-vaccine)

On an ethical level  - if you genuinely believe vaccines are potentially dangerous, it is unethical to sacrifice the potential health of an individual (your child) for the potential health of another who cannot receive immunisation.

If you do believe vaccines are 100% safe, then yes, you probably should vaccinate to protect the young and those who are not vaccinated (as small a protection as that might confer and keeping in mind that the "herd" argument hardly holds across all diseases).  I do not know anyone who does not vaccinate and believes vaccines are safe, however.  

[pammysue]

The thing about the herd immunity argument (going off Kathy's post) is that if I sincerely think that vaccines are dangerous to my child, more dangerous than the disease they purport to prevent, is it ethical for you to ask me to vaccinate my child to keep you safe? Do you have the right to ask me to put my child at risk to keep you safer? And it doesn't really matter what you think about my view of vaccines. 

Also, I am sick of being told the only reason I don't fully vaccinate is because Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey said not to. It is so insulting!

[BeckyBird]

I like the part about "young babies are not able to process most vaccinations."

I'll say! How about that, in their own words, admitting a problem with vaccines. Another reason to at least delay or selectively vaccinate (or not vaccinate at all )

We are pressured to change our beliefs for the supposed "common good."

[ma2two]

I'm not going to have a kidney taken from my kids to donate to strangers to save their lives. I'm not going to vaccinate my children on the extremely small chance it's going to make any difference whatsoever in a stranger's health.

However, I believe taking a kidney would be less harmful to my children than fully vaccinating them, based on what I know, as their mother, about their health. But nobody would ever expect me to do that, or even think of asking me to do that.

[wolfybaby]

i agree with the general response here. if i truly believe vaccines are unsafe, its unethical for someone to expect me to use them. just like how its unethical for me to ask people who trust them to not use them [and why, apparently, no one will do a large scale comparison between vaccinated kids and unvaccinated kids- because its "unethical" to leave so many kids unvaccinated].

i feel bad for those people with immune problems. but its the hand they were dealt. THEY need to be more aware of their condition and change THEIR lifestyle. they cant expect everybody else to do it for them. the world didnt quit smoking because some kids have asthma.

[Imakcerka]

I have an auto immune disease... my mother my brother and my sister all have an auto immune disease.  As a family with auto immune diseases we steer clear of vaccinations and the flu shot.  Why?  Because they make us sick.  My mother is in remission right now from Guillain Bere and when she gets the flu shot she has to go on all sorts of medication right before she does.  She's a nurse and it's required or she'll lose her job.  She's been fighting this one for years. 

Last time I got the flu shot (military)  I had over 6 swollen joints and two of them are permanently damaged.  Screw the herd, they dont have to get up every morning and deal with my day of pain.  I haven't had the flu shot or allowed the VA to administer any boosters in 3 yrs  I feel better now than ever.  I haven't even had a major flare up.   My kids will not be getting anymore vaccinations!  I don't want them ever to go through the crap we have.  My sister hopefully will not ever go through what my brother and I have. 

I wish people understood what vaccinations could do to someone with a dormant auto immune disease.  I wish the medical community would take it seriously and not just consider all 4 of us a fluke. 

[homemademomma]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

I like the part about "young babies are not able to process most vaccinations."

I'll say! How about that, in their own words, admitting a problem with vaccines. Another reason to at least delay or selectively vaccinate (or not vaccinate at all )

We are pressured to change our beliefs for the supposed "common good."

No, you are misunderstanding.This does not mean there is a problem with vaccines. This is why you wait until at least 2 months to start vaccinating for the most part. And what is wrong with the common good?!  Don't we all belong to part of a community? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfybaby 

i feel bad for those people with immune problems. but its the hand they were dealt. THEY need to be more aware of their condition and change THEIR lifestyle. they cant expect everybody else to do it for them. the world didnt quit smoking because some kids have asthma.

That's mean. Sorry, it is. I feel that ALL children are my responsibility, and I feel I have an inherent responsibility to all members of my community. I really don't think my kids are any better or more special than every other kid on the planet. I agree that I have a special responsibility to my children, and I would never do something harmful to them for the benefit of the community. That is why I don' get up in arms about people not vaccinating, even though my daughter has a primary immunodeficiency. Every parent gets to make the choices they feel are best. I just find this attitude icky. We live in a society, and we should all have a sense of responsibility for each other, especially our children. 

 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by homemademomma 

That's mean. Sorry, it is. I feel that ALL children are my responsibility, and I feel I have an inherent responsibility to all members of my community. I really don't think my kids are any better or more special than every other kid on the planet. I agree that I have a special responsibility to my children, and I would never do something harmful to them for the benefit of the community. That is why I don' get up in arms about people not vaccinating, even though my daughter has a primary immunodeficiency. Every parent gets to make the choices they feel are best. I just find this attitude icky. We live in a society, and we should all have a sense of responsibility for each other, especially our children. 

 

It is not mean.  I think it is bluntly stated, but not mean.  

I do feel for those who who are ill, and I feel a sense of responsibility to mankind, especially children, but it does not extend to potentially putting my children in harms way for a possible benefit to the community.  It doesn't for you, either  (see italics) so I am a little confused as to why you find this mean  

 I do think there are times when I would put myself at risk for that of my community.  Ex:  saving someone who is drowning, administering first aid to a person that might be bleeding.  I am an adult though: I can assess my skills, degree of risk and decide to offer or help (or not - but I like to sleep at night ).  This is not something i would ask a kid to do.

So while you might choose to get a vax for those who can't, it is questionable whether it is ethical to give a child a vax solely for the sake of others if you think vaxxes are risky.  Adults can take risks for others if they choose. I don't think adults should ask kids too.  

Edited by purslaine - 1/1/12 at 8:15am

[Imakcerka]

No it's not mean.  Of course it's fair to be considerate of others... but me being vaccinated so that your kid won't be exposed to the chicken pox or the flu... when both of those vaccinations could land me in the hospital... I'm going to look out for myself on that one. 

[purslaine]

double posts - hit quote instead of edit. 

[rachelsmama]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

No it's not mean.  Of course it's fair to be considerate of others... but me being vaccinated so that your kid won't be exposed to the chicken pox or the flu... when both of those vaccinations could land me in the hospital... I'm going to look out for myself on that one. 

 

I really don't see how making a healthy person sick benefits the "herd".  The whole "herd immunity" argument always makes me gag a bit though, considering how the weakest members of most "herds" are handled. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by rachelsmama 

 

I really don't see how making a healthy person sick benefits the "herd".  The whole "herd immunity" argument always makes me gag a bit though, considering how the weakest members of most "herds" are handled. 

OT:  I am going to go down a scary path now.....

I think vaccines are somewhat of a class issue.

I have met plenty of educated, well informed people who vaccinate.

I have met plenty of educated, well informed people who do not vaccinate.

Here is an article that tends to show that mothers who choose to not vaccinate at all tend to be well educated, etc.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/114/1/187.abstract

To quote:  Unvaccinated children tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a household with an annual income exceeding $75 000, and to have parents who expressed concerns regarding the safety of vaccines and indicated that medical doctors have little influence over vaccination decisions for their children. 

All the less educated/less informed people I know vaccinate.  There is universal health care here, so it is rare someone skips vaccinating for financial reasons.

I have had 2 separate people, both of them poor and uneducated, tell me everyone has to vaccinate - that it is the law: kids could not go to school if unvaccinated  and if CPS ever found out they would be at your doorstep for not vaxxing.  

I have also been told by less educated people it is illegal to homeschool or HSing might invite CPS involvement in your life.

Getting back to the quote above - I think our society uses the ignorance of the weakest people of the herd (the poor, less educated, etc) to their advantage to get them to do what they want them to do.

That we have a group of people who are somewhat ignorant of their rights feeling they have to vaccinate or risk CPS involvement, not going to school, etc makes me gag - particulalry as vaccines are not risk-free.

Edited by purslaine - 1/1/12 at 9:55am

[rachelsmama]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

That we have a group of people who are somewhat ignorant of their rights feeling they have to vaccinate or risk CPS involvement, not going to school, etc makes me gag - particulalry as vaccines are not risk-free.

Yup, I agree.  I agree with the rest of your post too.

[member234098]

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Edited by member234098 - 5/27/12 at 4:02pm

[Imakcerka]

Agreed Kathy.  I have family that do what they're "supposed" to do.  That's all fine and dandy but doing what you're "supposed" to do takes a big dump on all the work that was done for our freedoms.  Fear mongering is a very beautiful tool.  If you don't do this you can't do that.  Play on emotions and educations is disgusting.  Rahm Emmanuel once said "Never let a good Tragedy go to waste."  Use all you have to get people to believe what is being done and what you are "supposed" to do is right.  9/11 didn't go to waste... they used it to go to war.  They want to scare people with Anthrax so you'll be fine with giving it to your kids?  Come on, open your eyes people!

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by miriam 

The question remains about the herd and its ability to protect persons with such immune conditions.  The only time I have had the herd theory aimed at me is to invoke shame after trying to scaring me with death anecdotes from so-called "vaccine preventable diseases" does not work.  If it does work, why doesn't immunity from the native population to the turista protect the tourist in Mexico?

Because that's not how herd immunity works.  The same way that it wasn't how it worked the last time this discussion came up in July.  For the sake of time, I'll just cut and paste your comment and my response from then.

7/4/11

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• WildKingdom 
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Originally Posted by miriam 

I had made the point before that the only time I have heard the herd theory of immunity invoked against me is when the disease scare tactics do not change my mind. I only mentioned measles because it is an obvious one for me.  Sorry.  But where is the herd immunity in Long Island, NY for pertussis? Or in Mexico for turista?

By turista, I assume you mean traveler's diarrhea.

I think you might not be understanding the pathogenesis of E. coli.  You can't get herd immunity for it.  In a nutshell, all people's GI tract is colonized with E. coli.  There are lots of different types of E. coli.  Some are pathogenic, some are not.  Mexican children will get colonized with E. coli and will get diarrhea.  They are repeatedly exposed to it and then are colonized with it and it is no longer pathogenic to them (they have not developed "immunity" to it- there's a big difference).  However, their fecal material contaminates the water supply in Mexico.  When tourists go to Mexico, if they drink the water, they get the infection.

[BeckyBird]

  I am aware that newborns don't receive most vaccines. I do have one fully vaccinated child, and I still have his vaccine card. It saddens me every time I see it :o(    I do not like the idea of newborns receiving any vaccine, and I think 2 months old is still waaaaayyy too young. At least wait until the child has a more developed immune system, which, by the way, scientists still do not fully understand.

   "Hey, let's shoot up an immature immune system with something that is designed to create an immune response, but oh wait--we don't fully understand the immune system to begin with. But we KNOW that vaccines don't cause (or trigger) all these autoimmune diseases and other problems." Yeah, I'm not buying it. I need a little more research to feel comfortable about the relationship between vaccines and the immune system. How do they affect the system years later? If immunity is supposed to last years, then couldn't an autoimmune disease develop years later as well? I think so.

   As for the herd immunity ethical issue......it's a conflict of beliefs. I do not believe in sacrificing the health of my child to possibly protect yours. Yet, some of you seem very comfortable with the idea of risking my child's safety to protect yours. See, there's harm going both ways here. It's so hypocritical to pressure us to vaccinate, because you're asking us to harm our children so that other children won't be harmed by illness. Harm from the vaccine versus harm from the illness. Harm is harm is harm. Who gets to decide what harm will be done to whom? Forcing everyone to vaccinate will surely continue to cause harm in the form of vaccine reactions. You are asking us to harm our children, so others won't be (theoretically) harmed by illness. Why do you get to make that decision for us? Are we not also members of this community? So, only you get to decide what's best for the community, at the expense of my kids? This is hypocritical.

**Side note: This is why we need to keep our medical freedoms, because once laws dictate our medical choices, it's all over with. You will lose your freedoms along with us who don't vaccinate. We all lose.****

  I don't like vaccines, I don't agree with them, they are always tainted with something terrible,  I sure as HECK don't believe the governmental agencies that tell us they are safe. We do know that some vaccines shed, and could make the weak folks  very ill. Is this why the unvaccinated are vilified? Because vaccinated people shed the disease and the unvaccinated catch the disease, then spread it back to the young, weak, and folks whose vaccines didn't work? Do you see the problem with this?? Vaccines are still spreading diseases!!! Vaccines don't fully protect either, so the vaccinated can still get sick!! The recently vaccinated can shed disease on the weak!! Yet, the unvaccinated kids are to blame here? Why don't the recently vaccinated have the spotlight on them? Because vaccines are the Holy Grail of the medical system--an outdated, harmful system that needs improvement.

  I guess vaccines only create immunity. They do not cause adverse reactions. They do not trigger health conditions. They do not adversely affect the body in any way years later. They ONLY create immunity to bad germs and diseases, and that's all. They are never responsible for anything bad. They are magical!

  Or, we could all become *pro science*, always question, and strive to improve these harmful practices.  Admit there is a problem with the current vaccines, and work towards improving them. Realize that each person is unique, and understand that vaccines could trigger a negative response, even years later. Do not subject my child to these harmful practices, when there is still so much to learn.

[Imakcerka]

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

That is all...

[Imakcerka]

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/tfmp/vaccomp/vaccomp_fy2011.htm

If I'm reading these right they're in the negative billions... why would they have to pay out so much for some that is SOOOOOOO good for the herd?  Oh and for the last one... that's not the only place you can find death related to protecting the herd.  Wait... I thought we're trying to keep people alive?