For the Herd's Sake, Vaccinate - Page 3

[purslaine]

Here is another concern I have with being painted as the bad guy for not vaccinating for the herd.....

I wish, quite fervently, that my daughters had caught chicken pox and rubella as children (well, one did catch CP - lucky her).

Rubella is not safe during pregnancy, and CP can cause issues as well.  I have a 13 yr old daughter - I will have to weigh the risks of rubella soon.

I think it is unethical to eradicate what were essentially benign childhood disease that conferred lifetime immunity which in turn forces my hand on the vaccine issue...for what? Convenience?  Money?  I would have much preferred a system where benign childhood diseases were allowed to occur - and if they did not vaccines could be available as one entered puberty 

Edited by purslaine - 1/1/12 at 8:14pm

[rachelsmama]

And to add to that: remember when the swine flu was a big issue a couple of years ago?  They weren't vaccinating people over a certain age around here because exposure to the previous swine flu outbreak provided a significant degree of immunity to the newer outbreak, even after all those decades.   I suspect that mass vaccinations against the milder and moderate strains of the flu virus are going to leave the masses in a bad situation if/when we get hit by a really bad strain.

[Imakcerka]

Should the government promote a medical intervention that undeniably causes death and serious injury to a minority in order to save the lives of the majority?

If you honestly think immunizations are completely safe do the research come back here and say with all honesty, children do not suffer from immunizations, children do not die from immunizations and the herd immunity idea is the best they can come up with.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Should the government promote a medical intervention that undeniably causes death and serious injury to a minority in order to save the lives of the majority?

If you honestly think immunizations are completely safe do the research come back here and say with all honesty, children do not suffer from immunizations, children do not die from immunizations and the herd immunity idea is the best they can come up with.

I don't claim that vaccinations are completely safe, and I don't know anyone who does. I do feel that the benefits far outweigh the risks. And yes, all of my vaccinations are up to date. So are my kids' and my husband's. 

[Imakcerka]

Think of the gravity of what you say.  Some children may die... some children may become very sick. Have you looked into the death toll?  Have you looked into the illnesses?  Are you certain you're 100% on board with vaccinations?  They're safe enough?  And your family is okay, that's great.  I'm not, my mother is not, my brother is not.  My mother has Guillain Berre caused by the flu shot.  She was in the hospital from 88 to 89.  At the time is was considered an orphan disease, now they know how it was triggered.  I lost a year with my mother over the stupid flu shot.  My brother got very sick while in the Marines from Anthrax vaccinations.  He's never fully recovered.  He wakes up some mornings with half his face swollen and chunks of hair have fallen out.  This has been attributed to the Anthrax shot in his medical records.  He still works and he's capable of holding a decent job.  But physically he's very uncomfortable.  I have an auto immune disease as well and yes it hit me two weeks after getting the flu mist that I could not get out of.  I was also in the military.  Waking up to run one morning and my knees and hands were swollen.  I felt tired and was in a lot of pain... my medical records... what do you think they say?

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

I don't claim that vaccinations are completely safe, and I don't know anyone who does. I do feel that the benefits far outweigh the risks. And yes, all of my vaccinations are up to date. So are my kids' and my husband's. 

Edited by Imakcerka - 1/1/12 at 6:50pm

[serenbat]

And to add to that: remember when the swine flu was a big issue a couple of years ago?  

there was a recent "fluff piece" (AP I think) in our local paper about THIS year's flu shot and it said "same strain" as last year BUT you had to get the shot again because the shot is only good for one year! wears off that quickly

[serenbat]

I feel pesticides are vile - yet I am a lone sheep among the "herd" of my neighbors that want to spray, spray, spray their lawns- the "heard" doesn't care what effect it has on my family but they care that my grasses isn't as greens as theirs and doesn't look as nice and oh the property value!         ...should I just absorb for the greater good for the heard? 

when we throw out "death" everyone is to run and panic and forget to think 

this "heard" for the grater good is not the greater good for us (as we "hear" it-since it is always the same old message from the pro-vaccine side)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/books/review/Oshinsky.t.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/you-cant-hide-in-the-herd/

Edited by serenbat - 1/1/12 at 8:09pm

[BeckyBird]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

this "heard" for the grater good is not the greater good for us

Nice!

[Imakcerka]

I had to edit mine because of my severe snarkiness.  In case you're all wondering

[Kelly1101]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Here is another concern I have with being painted as the bad guy for not vaccinating for the herd.....

I wish, quite fervently, that my daughters had caught chicken pox and rubella as children (well, one did catch CP - lucky her).

Rubella is not safe during pregnancy, and CP can cause issues as well.  I have a 13 yr old daughter - I will have to weigh the risks of rubella soon.

I think it is unethical to eradicate what were essentially benign childhood disease that conferred lifetime immunity and force my hand on the vaccine issue...for what? Convenience?  Money?  I would have much preferred a system where benign childhood diseases were allowed to occur - and if they did not vaccines could be available as one entered puberty 

Wait, what?  It's unethical to eradicate diseases that killed or had severe lifelong consequences for children?  I don't think anyone was trying to "force your hand" (!!?!?!) when they used vaccination to eradicate diseases.  And I definitely think the "saving children's lives" was WAYYY above "money" or "convenience."  What a bizarre perspective.  I mean, sure, you CAN live through some vpds and be fine, and lots of people did-- but a lot of kids also died or had serious complications, more than have complications from the vaccine today.  Is this true, do you really think that the medical community in the past eradicated vaccine-preventable diseases in a sneaky attempt to force your hand on the vaccine issue?  How peculiar.

[Imakcerka]

Anyone care to bring up the difference between the time children died from these illness and now? 

[marinak1977]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Anyone care to bring up the difference between the time children died from these illness and now? 

Sure. My maternal grandmother was forever disabled and disfigured by Polio. She lived, but she never was able to walk properly. I would not wish that on anyone. Thankfully we no longer have to worry about Polio in the US, and while I am currently delaying my son's polio vaccination, you BET he will be vaccinated for it once he is a little older.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Kelly1101 

Wait, what?  It's unethical to eradicate diseases that killed or had severe lifelong consequences for children?  I don't think anyone was trying to "force your hand" (!!?!?!) when they used vaccination to eradicate diseases.  And I definitely think the "saving children's lives" was WAYYY above "money" or "convenience."  What a bizarre perspective.  I mean, sure, you CAN live through some vpds and be fine, and lots of people did-- but a lot of kids also died or had serious complications, more than have complications from the vaccine today.  Is this true, do you really think that the medical community in the past eradicated vaccine-preventable diseases in a sneaky attempt to force your hand on the vaccine issue?  How peculiar.

You are right, they are not trying to force my hand when they eradicate diseases - it is just a byproduct. The result is the same for me, however.  I will edit the word "and" to "which" for clarity.

I specifically brought up rubella and chicken pox.  Most people consider these diseases to be benign for most children - so yes, I am annoyed that are being eradicated in childhood given their dangerousness in pregnancy.  I wish my children had those diseases instead of needing to consider the vaccine.  

I could look up the stats on the the chances of a negative reaction to chicken pox (for example) versus a negative reaction to the vax, but I don't want to bother.  I would urge anyone who is interested to look up the data for themselves. I would keep in mind the medical community dismisses most reports of adverse vax reactions anyways. 

Edited by purslaine - 1/1/12 at 8:15pm

[Imakcerka]

Do you honestly think that's what I was talking about?  Hygiene maybe?  Running water in most homes?  The ability to get to a doctor?  Do you dismiss these things?

Originally Posted by marinak1977 


Sure. My maternal grandmother was forever disabled and disfigured by Polio. She lived, but she never was able to walk properly. I would not wish that on anyone. Thankfully we no longer have to worry about Polio in the US, and while I am currently delaying my son's polio vaccination, you BET he will be vaccinated for it once he is a little older.

Edited because I can't use spell check... meh

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Anyone care to bring up the difference between the time children died from these illness and now? 

Vaccine availability?

[Imakcerka]

Absolutely correct!  That would be the only reason anyone ever got sick!  My friend, you have bested me.  I feel like one daft lady...
 

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Vaccine availability?

[jess in hawaii]

Originally Posted by marinak1977 


Sure. My maternal grandmother was forever disabled and disfigured by Polio. She lived, but she never was able to walk properly. I would not wish that on anyone. Thankfully we no longer have to worry about Polio in the US, and while I am currently delaying my son's polio vaccination, you BET he will be vaccinated for it once he is a little older.

This is the one my mother always brought up when I tried to explain my stance on vaccines. She would invariably say "I knew children who had to be in the iron lung!". What many people don't realize is that the Polio epidemic was a by product of improved sanitation. Before indoor plumbing and the rise of disinfectants, most people had early, low level exposure to Polio via the outhouse and non washing of hands. Gross by our sensibilities, but none the less, the way the Heard got immunity for centuries (at least from Polio).

[marinak1977]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 



I specifically brought up rubella and chicken pox.  Most people consider these diseases to be benign for most children - so yes, I am annoyed that are being eradicated in childhood given their dangerousness in pregnancy.  I wish my children had those diseases instead of needing to consider the vaccine.  

I could look up the stats on the the chances of a negative reaction to chicken pox (for example) versus a negative reaction to the vax, but I don't want to bother.  I would urge anyone who is interested to look up the data for themselves. I would keep in mind the medical community dismisses most reports of adverse vax reactions anyways. 

I grew up before chicken pox vaccinations were wide spread. People who came down with it were quarantined, not encouraged to run around and give it to everyone to establish immunity. I did not get the disease, and although I think I got vaccinated later, I am glad that the chances of my DS bringing it home from preschool are lower, now that I'm pregnant.
DH had chicken pox twice. Getting the disease doesn't guarantee immunity either.

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 



Do you honestly think that's what I was talking about?  Hygiene maybe?  Running water in most homes?  The ability to get to a doctor?  Do you dismiss these things?

Oh sure, having access to the doctor and running water is great in western countries. It's not true for most of the world though. However, in case of Polio it was still eradicated or reduced due to the vaccination campaign. According to the recent stats:
As of 2006, polio remains endemic in only four countries: Nigeria, India (specifically Uttar Pradesh and Bihar), Pakistan, and Afghanistan,[although it continues to cause epidemics in other nearby countries due to hidden or reestablished transmission. For example, despite eradication ten years prior, an outbreak was confirmed in China in September of 2011 involving a strain prevalent in neighboring Pakistan.

Did the access to running water and doctors in the West magically affected Polio transmission in rural Asia? My intuition tells me vaccines had something to do with it.

[savithny]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Do you honestly think that's what I was talking about?  Hygiene maybe?  Running water in most homes?  The ability to get to a doctor?  Do you dismiss these things?

Edited because I can't use spell check... meh

Actually, improved hygiene seems to have caused paralytic polio epidemics.   In areas without reliably clean water, most children are exposed to the pathogen as babies, while they're still sharing maternal immunities, and they have a very mild intestinal bug.   It was only after we cleaned up the water supply such that people didn't come in contact with polio bug as infants, but as children or even adults, that we began to have epidemics of paralytic polio.    Clean running water in most homes *causes* poliomyelitis.  

However, it prevents all kinds of deadly diarreahal diseases, so I'll still enjoy turning on the tap and filling glasses with safe, treated, water.

[BeckyBird]

So annoying! Can we have our thread back please? We would like to talk about how much we disagree with herd immunity. It is a theory, not a proven law. We need to have a "safe zone" to talk amongst ourselves. Can you understand this? You must be aware that the world is against us who don't vaccinate, so we kind of need this place to vent with each other. Seriously. You've got the WHOLE WORLD backing you, and we can't even have this tiny little forum.

I don't lurk on the PETA forum, and then write posts about hunting. If a forum has specific guidelines, why don't you try to follow them? We can argue all day long in another place.