For the Herd's Sake, Vaccinate - Page 4

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by marinak1977 


I grew up before chicken pox vaccinations were wide spread. People who came down with it were quarantined, not encouraged to run around and give it to everyone to establish immunity. I did not get the disease, and although I think I got vaccinated later, I am glad that the chances of my DS bringing it home from preschool are lower, now that I'm pregnant..

I am not sure what your point is?  (said nicely - no snark)

I have had CP, 2 of my 3 children had CP (the 16 and 13 year old).  In all cases we stayed home.  I did have a visit planned with a friend when I suspected DD had CP - I called her up and let her know of my suspicions, and she rescheduled the visit.  I do not send sick kids out into the world to establish immunity, because even though I actaully would like to see the return on CP/ rubella, I am not playing God and imposing my agenda on others.  Some people do not want their kids to get sick for darn good reasons.  That being said, when I was a child (I am pushing 40) almost everyone got CP.  I think this is because diseases are often contagious before symptoms set in.  

[marinak1977]

My point is that despite not having vaccinations it was possible not to get a disease as a child, and then be at a higher risk during pregnancy because the disease is common.

I appreciate that you and your children stayed home when sick with CP. That is a nice and responsible thing to do.

[Imakcerka]

So... will you let your kids get the Anthrax vaccination, no questions asked?  Will you get it yourselves?  And do you never question the vaccinations?  I have a hard time believing people go blindly through life thinking their government will take care of them and always knows whats best for their bodies. 

[Imakcerka]

I recall getting cp to be the height of the school year.  We all wanted our two weeks out of school.  You know, why don't they vaccinate for all five of the childhood diseases?  5ths disease can be deadly to pregnant women.  My kids got it and when symptoms present themselves they're no longer contagious but until then they should be kept away from pregnant women and elderly.
 

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I am not sure what your point is?  (said nicely - no snark)

I have had CP, 2 of my 3 children had CP (the 16 and 13 year old).  In all cases we stayed home.  I did have a visit planned with a friend when I suspected DD had CP - I called her up and let her know of my suspicions, and she rescheduled the visit.  I do not send sick kids out into the world to establish immunity, because even though I actaully would like to see the return on CP/ rubella, I am not playing God and imposing my agenda on others.  Some people do not want their kids to get sick for darn good reasons.  That being said, when I was a child (I am pushing 40) almost everyone got CP.  I think this is because diseases are often contagious before symptoms set in.  

[Imakcerka]

Really Beckybird... is this forum about not vaccinating?  Wait... it is.  And again why are they on here?  I already suggested they could pm me and we could have a nice lengthy discussion... my inbox is so empty and bored...

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

So annoying! Can we have our thread back please? We would like to talk about how much we disagree with herd immunity. It is a theory, not a proven law. We need to have a "safe zone" to talk amongst ourselves. Can you understand this? You must be aware that the world is against us who don't vaccinate, so we kind of need this place to vent with each other. Seriously. You've got the WHOLE WORLD backing you, and we can't even have this tiny little forum.

I don't lurk on the PETA forum, and then write posts about hunting. If a forum has specific guidelines, why don't you try to follow them? We can argue all day long in another place.

[marinak1977]

Oh, I question vaccinations. DS is on a delayed and spread out schedule, since his risk of contracting a lot of the VPDs is low due to eradication and my family has allergy history. However, it doesn't mean I think that vaccines don't work for disease prevention. The world isn't black and white.

[BeckyBird]

Marinak, I respect that. I support your right to choose!

[Imakcerka]

Correct it is not.  I have a problem with herd immunity and it's flaws.  I have not problem with other people that vaccinate.  Your bodies your lives.  I don't want to be forced to vaccinate due to my personal physical problems and the problems that have arose in my close family due to vaccinations.  I have looked through each vaccination and very few should be required. 

Rubella affects unborn babies and so does Parvovirus B19, both can be deadly... Why is there not a vaccination for fifths disease?  If we're protecting the herd shouldn't that one be required?  It's a common disease.

I've checked the CDC sites and to their own admission these vaccines can be life threatening. 

The Treasury department shows they have payed out over 3 billion in vaccine related incidents, some death.  Why should they pay out if it's for the good for many?
Edited to say that that was their pay out this year as of September.  By the way this widely available information.

Originally Posted by marinak1977 

Oh, I question vaccinations. DS is on a delayed and spread out schedule, since his risk of contracting a lot of the VPDs is low due to eradication and my family has allergy history. However, it doesn't mean I think that vaccines don't work for disease prevention. The world isn't black and white.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by marinak1977 


Sure. My maternal grandmother was forever disabled and disfigured by Polio. She lived, but she never was able to walk properly. I would not wish that on anyone. Thankfully we no longer have to worry about Polio in the US, and while I am currently delaying my son's polio vaccination, you BET he will be vaccinated for it once he is a little older.

My paternal grandmother had polio as an adult, with no complications.

My mother had measles as a 2 year old.  No complications.

Everyone has an anecdote.  But remember, anecdotes are not data.

[nia82]

My parents had whooping cough, measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox and so did their siblings and they all did fine. My peers and I had mumps and it was the best 2 weeks in 4th grade  - plenty of time in front of the TV and no school with a gasp pediatrician who said to my mom I'm so glad she caught it now so we don't have to vaccinate her (this was in 1992!). Just anecdotes to add... And.... I have been around lots of active chickenpox cases and never caught it. Subsequently, immigration required a shot that was repeated 4 times without... drumroll ... any titers! 4 times poked for nothing! And at the same time I did get a MMR which caused issues for 6 months. Painful issues. Reactions are very real. But that's just an anecdote. For the record, we very delayed, very selectively vaccinate. I will not blindly follow some schedule because I am expected to sacrifice my children for the greater good - when it is likely that they will suffer greatly from a host of unnecessary vaccinations and numerous side effects that most likely will permanently do some damage to their developing bodies. 

To the original topic, yes this argument is bothersome and unfair, as we are expected to do damage to our children to keep others safe. How does the herd benefit from a whole lot of damaged kids? Not at all (looking at it from the point of view of a herd - so no individuals' fate are important, only that of the herd - and having lots of damaged kids opposed to some sick is strictly herd-speaking not good as it "weakens" it). I hate that terminology. It's so... the terminology and thinking used in Nazi Germany and then East Germany (the individual doesn't count, only the mass/herd/group). I react quite allergic to such thinking.

[Imakcerka]

With the "herd immunity" the vaccines will most likely increase the average age of infection.  Unvaccinated kids are experiencing a reduced force of infection due the the vaccinated group... However, diseases that increase with severity in age may actually cause more complications and deaths than before vaccinations were put into place.  People could catch them later in life and not just the unvaccinated crowd.  In a largely vaccinated crowd as opposed to an unvaccinated crowd the diseases move slowly.  These disease have time to mutate and get stronger.  And since we're not actually in contact with the changes anymore and we're vaccinated from a strain that is quite old ( look it up, they don't put much into updating these)  your chances of contacting a stronger strain of the diseases heighten with age.  Your body has not been able to work through them.

If the CDC and big Pharma were actually working to be effective and if money was not big Pharma's primary objective "I" would feel more comfortable with the herd immunity idea.  I would love that nobody ever got sick.  Then again, I'm dreaming.  Since we all know big Pharma only cares about it's bank account.  Now you could say I'm being a conspiracy theorist with my ideas that big Pharma is not in it to help us but rather line it's pockets then maybe I'm the only one doing research.  I don't get my information for here or any one sided publications.  I go straight to the source.  I read their quarterly reports and I check up on the CDC and their constant changes and honestly it's not hard to put two and two together and figure out they don't give a crap about US individually.  

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by marinak1977 

 However, it doesn't mean I think that vaccines don't work for disease prevention. The world isn't black and white.

Bolding mine.  

I agree with you.  I think the whole debate around vaccines (which includes discussions of herd) get very polarised and extreme and I don't think it serves anyone well.

WRT to herd, I suspect vaccination is one factor in numerous factors as to why some diseases have lower numbers now than before.

I made a list once on disease I thought the herd immunity had an argument for, and it wasn't huge (there were some, though).  So many variables - is the disease contagious, is the vaccine highly effective, is the disease vaccine worthy?

When articles start spotting off about herd immunity like it is an umbrella idea it sets my teeth on edge.  On the flip side, I don't think herd immunity as a concept is total bunk (just mostly bunk - my bias is showing )

Edited by purslaine - 1/2/12 at 8:13am

[purslaine]

Another thought - with a nod to a poster upthread who mentionned it - 

Aren't kids meant to get sick with childhood illnesses?  Doesn't it help build the immune system?  I am talking about CP, rubella, mumps here...not Polio.  

I occasionally wonder if the rise in autoimmune diseases and the like can be somewhat attributed to decisions made by us as a whole - using lysol to get rid of germs, eradicating benign diseases, etc.  Is trying to protect "the herd" now just creating problems down the road?

[Imakcerka]

I think so.  I find it odd that my kids are never ever sick.  NEVER!  At daycare everyone got strep to include the DP.  In 6 months they all got it 3 times.  Holy sucky, my girls never got it once.  However I'm starting to suspect they're carriers as I got it and I didn't go near the front door the times they had it.  It was actually kind of a joke for the DP.  She'd call and say we have this or that..." I told the other parents to not bring their kids but you can bring yours."   DD1 has seasonal allergies but who doesn't' here.  I had them bad when I was little but my mom refused to give me anything for them.  Though I felt like crud, I do quite well now.  I get the sniffles for a day and then I'm good.  I dint disinfect everything, we have dogs and a cat in the house and though I ensure hands are washed often I don't spray my house down.  The neighbor kids live in a plastic bubble I'm sure and they're always sick.  I feel so bad for them.  Though I do think it has a lot to do with heredity.  My dads side of the family are all loggers and longshoremen.  They're healthy until they day they die which is usually right before 100 baring any accidents and such. 

What I never understood was that almost all the moms I knew breastfed and they always had sick kids.  I thought since I breastfed and my kids never got sick it was normal for breastfed babies to be healthier.  I'm starting to think breastfeeding alone means nothing if you don't live a healthy lifestyle to begin with and are not a germaphobe.
 

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Another thought - with a nod to a poster upthread who mentionned it - 

Aren't kids meant to get sick with childhood illnesses?  Doesn't it help build the immune system?  I am talking about CP, rubella, mumps here...not Polio.  

I occasionally wonder if the rise in autoimmune diseases and the like can be somewhat attributed to decisions made by us as a whole - using lysol to get rid of germs, eradicating benign diseases, etc.  Is trying to protect "the herd" now just creating problems down the road?

[serenbat]

Aren't kids meant to get sick with childhood illnesses?  Doesn't it help build the immune system?  I am talking about CP, rubella, mumps here...not Polio.  

YES! IMO

but with polio we still are VERY ANTI vac- we have a close friend that had polio - given what we know, no way would we do the vac

when you learn about sooooooooooo many that did not get polio in the US during the outbreaks and prior to the vaccine (even within the same family) you tend to have a different perspective on polio

[nia82]

Ok I stink at quoting... But yes breastfeeding won't protect from everything, but it helps... I know people who breastfeed, but eat junk (processed foods, artificial colors and dyes, hormone and antiboitic laden dairy and meat, lots of processed carbs, sodapop, and so on) and crappy nutrition just wreaks havoc on your immune system... Oh and the Tylenol for each small fever... Or Lysol-ing everything... Not exactly helping to build a healthy immune system. 

[BeckyBird]

Also, the early polio vaccines were tainted with SV40, which can be passed down from mother to children. How many people were affected by that?  These were very dangerous and harmful vaccines. Soooo, polio is gone, but cancer is flourishing. What a wonderful trade off!

*"First, we knew that SV40 had cancer-causing properties in hamsters which was bad news. Secondly, we found out that it hybridized with certain DNA viruses, like Adeno virus.”  When you introduce unstable animal viruses into man, there is a risk of recombinant (the formation of new combinations of linked genes) events occurring which can produce new kinds of diseases.  For example the Adeno virus would then have SV40 genes attached to it.

*Have a baby with cancer? Did you know this-- 

Furthermore, SV40 has been found in every type of primary pediatric brain tumor examined including: meningioma (4), astrocytoma (2,3,12), choroid plexus papillomas and ependymomas (1,5). Thus, the available evidence indicates that SV40 is consistently involved in pediatric brain tumors including medulloblastoma."   " Although the data is limited because so few studies have been funded, every study that has looked for SV40 in human medulloblastomas has found"   http://www.sv40foundation.org/Bradford-Hill.html

*"By 1968, all sorts of viruses, Adenovirus, Papovaviruses (there are 120 types of human papillomavirus (HPV) identified. HPV causes essentially all cervical cancer and anogenital warts. HPV is a DNA tumor virus similar to SV40 and polyomavirus), Herpes viruses, Poxviruses, Picornaviruses, Enteroviruses, Myxoviruses and Reoviruses had been discovered.

*Also, how about redefinition of Polio? Has it truly been eradicated, or did the name just change to something else? Hey, the rise of autism is accredited to  "improved awareness and diagnosis of the disorders"  (basically, redefinition). So, is the decline of Polio due to redefinition and new diagnostic names? It's a possibility!

"Some doctors are of the belief that Polio has not been eradicated by vaccination, that it is lurking behind a redefinition and new diagnostic names like Viral or Aseptic Meningitis. As the recorded cases of "Polio" continued to decline, there was a significant increase in "Cerebral palsy" or "Aseptic (Viral) Meningitis" and "Guillain-Barré Syndrome."

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/page_13.htm

[member234098]

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Edited by member234098 - 5/27/12 at 3:53pm

[member234098]

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Edited by member234098 - 5/27/12 at 3:54pm

[OceanGypsy87]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

I have an auto immune disease... my mother my brother and my sister all have an auto immune disease.  As a family with auto immune diseases we steer clear of vaccinations and the flu shot.  Why?  Because they make us sick.  My mother is in remission right now from Guillain Bere and when she gets the flu shot she has to go on all sorts of medication right before she does.  She's a nurse and it's required or she'll lose her job.  She's been fighting this one for years. 

Last time I got the flu shot (military)  I had over 6 swollen joints and two of them are permanently damaged.  Screw the herd, they dont have to get up every morning and deal with my day of pain.  I haven't had the flu shot or allowed the VA to administer any boosters in 3 yrs  I feel better now than ever.  I haven't even had a major flare up.   My kids will not be getting anymore vaccinations!  I don't want them ever to go through the crap we have.  My sister hopefully will not ever go through what my brother and I have. 

I wish people understood what vaccinations could do to someone with a dormant auto immune disease.  I wish the medical community would take it seriously and not just consider all 4 of us a fluke. 

I too have auto immune diseases and was incredibly sick as a child, I got the worst case of chicken pox my doctor had ever seen, I got the flu every year (my mom knew not to vaccinate for it), and I had a cold or somesuch every month it seemed like. I also had a very bad flare up after my 12 year boosters. since I stopped getting vaccinated I have become a very healthy adult. I catch maybe 1 or 2 colds a year and rarely get the flu. I should mention I had swine flu a few years ago and had it much longer than anyone else in m,y family due to my AIDs, but I survived it, without antibiotics or a doctors help. 

What I am getting to is that Vitamin C and other natural remedies actually do much more for our immune systems, especially the compromised ones. so instead of people toting Vax they should be spreading the word of Vitamins. Vitamin C is the only vitamin we can't overdose on and it comes in abundance in the healthiest of fruits and veggies. Safe and effective. Vax isn't effective if you ask me. Personally I will be giving my little one modified vaccinations, because I know certain diseases run in my family, but I will be building my baby's immune system before hand to conteract those few vaccinations. (My family has had many Polio deaths and it has weakened all of our immune systems)