Being ridiculous, but I need help

[clav]

So, my son is 4 1/2 years old. I've noticed for a while at school that he mainly plays with girls and often will play the girl characters (superheroes mainly) of his action figures if noone else is playing with him.  He has no problem playing with boys as he loves playing with his boy cousin that is 4 mos younger than him but will ususally gravitate towards the girls.  He loves pretend play and will often dress up as his favorite character Thor and fight the bad guys.  He has a great imagination!  I know the problem is with me and that I should be happy that I have a happy and healthy 4 year old boy.  I guess my fear is gay and not that I wouldn't love him just the same, but I know what my cousin went through when he came out, and to think of my son going though that kills me.  Again, I know I'm being riduculous but if anyone else has gone through this or knows of someone who has and can help with anything encouraging to say I would appreciate it.

[LynnS6]

While most people who are gay/lesbian will tell you that they knew they were different from a very young age, kids who are ages 3-4 have very flexible ideas of gender. They play with the idea of different genders, and they almost see different genders as roles that you can take on or off, just like you can play at being a teacher or a bus driver.

What struck me most about your post was that your son loves imaginary play. To be honest, many 4-6 year old boys aren't very good at imaginary play. It can be  hard to find boys who want to do that. He may gravitate toward girls because they're doing the kind of play that he likes. Our son played with mostly girls through 2nd grade. Third grade he wasn't sure what to do with himself, and by 4th grade he had discovered sports and took a headlong dive into the world of boys. I suspect that in his later high school years he'll have a fair number of friends who are girls -- he's a good listener, pretty verbal and has a very wicked, but verbal, sense of humor. He's also not that athletic, so he won't be hanging with the jocks.

And then it's time for you to sit down and really examine your comfort level with differing sexual orientations. No, you don't want your child to have a hard time of it. But would he, really, if he's gay?  Remember he's growing up in a world that's very different than the world you grew up in. At least in my part of the country, there's so much more acceptance for kids who aren't heterosexual than there was when I was growing up. The issue has come up in our church, as we're starting the process to becoming a community that welcomes all sexual orientations. The youth (high schoolers and college students) look at us and go "what's the big deal? why haven't we done this already?" It's the adults that need more time to process the issue. That gives me hope that there will be less discrimination for our children's generation.

[ollyoxenfree]

I don't have much to add to Lynn's excellent post, but I will mention that I know a few young men who participated in dress-up play, loved pink and sparkles and extravagant costume jewelry (big beaded necklaces, gaudy clip on earrings), carried hand-bags and clumped around in mom's discarded high heeled shoes. They all grew up heterosexual. A couple of them are married to women or have female partners and have their own children now. I think it's all pretty typical and no different than little girls who put on baseball caps and overalls and play with construction toys. I also know a few gay men who wore baseball caps and overalls and played with construction toys and ignored dress-up play. It is wise to examine your feelings and attitudes, no matter what kind of play you are observing at this stage. 

[philomom]

My son was girly at four. He's a straight 16 year old now.

At that age gender is something kids "try on" just like any other idea.

[serenbat]

My son was girly at four. He's a straight 16 year old now.

At that age gender is something kids "try on" just like any other idea.

these remarks greatly sicken me!

my children DO NOT need to "try on" gender - they are WHO THEY ARE!

IF a child likes so-called girly things and that child is a male -------------- it's just FINE!

OP please educate yourself - the gay/trans community is there to help you and inform you on "trying on"

[philomom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

these remarks greatly sicken me!

my children DO NOT need to "try on" gender - they are WHO THEY ARE!

IF a child likes so-called girly things and that child is a male

---

it's just FINE!

OP please educate yourself - the gay/trans community is there to help you and inform you on "trying on"

Ho, ho. I was not concerned in the slightest that my son might be gay. Nor was my hubby. My daughter is bi and I am not unaware of GLBT issues. I know this fact that kids can "try on" gender from my child development classes I took in college. I allowed my children to develop who they were by providing all sorts of toys and play wear in their home environment. My nephew wanted to be a tree. Then a fire truck. And a puppy.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

these remarks greatly sicken me!

my children DO NOT need to "try on" gender - they are WHO THEY ARE!

IF a child likes so-called girly things and that child is a male -------------- it's just FINE!

OP please educate yourself - the gay/trans community is there to help you and inform you on "trying on"

Well, there's a difference between a 4 year old and a 16 year old. I agree that 16 year olds don't "try on" a gender role. Some 4 year olds don't, and they're clearly transgender. Most preschoolers, however, have very flexible notions of what it means to be male/female. They do try on different roles -- some of which are male, some of which are female. They don't have the fixed sense of gender roles that older children or adults do. Actually gender roles become much more rigid in the middle childhood years. But preschoolers have a fuzzy idea of what characteristics of a person can change and what can't. Heck, when my dd was three, her older brother said "when I grow up, I want to be a firefighter", and dd replied "and I want to be a Dalmation!"
 

[habitat]

The distinction between sex and gender is a concept that distinguishes sex, a natural or biological feature, from gender, the cultural or learned significance of sex.

OP, It's really REALLY okay.

Personally, I am excited to keep "trying on gender" for my entire adult life. I'm in agreement with most contemporary gender theorists when I maintain that personal gender and the expressions thereof are totally independent of sex.

I understand the anxiety of anticipating that your child may experience oppression if they present differently than the hetero-normative mainstream. But I also strongly feel that parents have a responsibility to acknowledge, confront and resolve any fears that they have surrounding divergent gender presentations in their children. And to create an environment wherein children are able to express themselves in WAYS THAT FEEL RIGHT TO THEM, no questions asked.  The reality is -  Gender is fluid. We live in a society that has manufactured a binary out of gender and dictated to us the parameters therein. As children and adults, we feel pressured perform as society dictates that our assigned "gender" should.

I believe strongly that children, at their purest and healthiest, have an innate understanding and comfort around gender fluidity and will experiment with all of the options that interest them and feel right. That is, if they have a healthy and supportive environment in which to do so. This way they have the very best chance to develop into people who are comfortable in their own skin, and with what comes naturally to them. Imagine a world in which adults do this as freely and without trauma? As children we are socialized and pressured into gender roles that directly correspond to our sex, we become less and less confident in their NATURAL gender presentation, and abandon it for the mainstream, polarized construct of Man (and all that supposedly entails) vs Woman (and all that supposedly entails).

This is not simply about GAY vs STRAIGHT. Queer (or LGBTQ...) communities have been fighting for parents to recognize and support natural, infinite gender variance since forever, in favor of giving young people a shot at healthier and more emotionally secure lives.

Hoping that our sons will always present within the boy/male/man/penis/growl/roar/strong/soldier archetype of penis-owners does not protect them from future abuse. It seriously (and most often irreversibly) suppresses their natural desires and abilities to shape their own gender identities, or to feel comfortable without maintaining those identities to the expectations of others. It deprives them of a language to speak of their genuine desires and identities.

I just disagree with the whole "don't worry, children are just playing with gender" thing, firstly because I feel that it does the concept of play a gross injustice. Secondly, because it implies that wearing dress (for instance) is dandy, unproblematic and acceptable into adulthood AS LONG AS YOU DON'T HAVE A PENIS.  This makes me sad, as I know many people with penises who were raised that way and for whom it took a lot of therapy and support in their adult lives to have the confidence to do what felt best for them.

We can't simply label everything that makes us uncomfortable about adolescent behavior, play as a means of avoiding addressing the discomfort in ourselves and what attention it might need.

I am confident that the anxiety parents tend to have have around gender is due to the social conditioning that they experienced, and feeling like they would be chastised/hurt/punished for any variance from the norm. I understand this anxiety and I don't think parents are to blame for feeling that way, but I also feel that it's important to address these fears as our own problems, and not those of our children, so that we are free to create an atmosphere in which personal identity is genuinely liberated.

I could go on and on about all the types of oppressions, abuses and issues of emotional health that are perpetuated or created by the anti-variance policing of the socialized gender-binary.

Wikipedia - Gender_variance

Social status for men vs. women

Gender nonconformity among males is usually more sensitively and violently policed than is nonconformity in females. Many theorists believe this is because femaleness is inherently devalued in a patriarchal society, therefore a male seeking to be more feminine is actively reducing his social status, yet a woman acting in a masculine way is tolerated and encouraged because her social status will be enhanced by the addition of the valuable attributes of maleness (e.g. physical power, assertiveness, ambition). The deep social pressure for those traditionally viewed as "male" to be masculine can be seen in the especially high levels of violence against transgender women.^[13]

A fear of being labeled gay or feminine causes many men to overtly reject and devalue such gender non-conforming behaviours, even prosocial ones such as caring for another individual and emotional communication. Some researchers have suggested this self-suppression has a negative impact on men's mental health. As with female gender nonconformity, gay men may find it easier to reject traditional masculinity because the price for doing so has already been paid by being gay.

A child raised in a home that supports gender-variance must be FAR less likely to commit an act of violence or to perpetuate social chaos for those who cannot or will not suppress their own.

I compare parenting within the socialized gender binary (man/woman) to abstinence-only sex education. If young people don't know that they have options, then someone is going to unwittingly make a series of decisions that will affect their health and comfort for the rest of their life.

[serenbat]

Well, there's a difference between a 4 year old and a 16 year old. 

I also understand the difference and also see a great difference between innate object imagination play vs gender role play. The OP's child is not pretending to be a puppy here-big difference IMO and should be viewed differently because it is different.

 OP it seem a hard role for a parent such as yourself and the PP make some great points-

A child raised in a home that supports gender-variance must be FAR less likely to commit an act of violence or to perpetuate social chaos for those who cannot or will not suppress their own.

I just disagree with the whole "don't worry, children are just playing with gender" thing, firstly because I feel that it does the concept of play a gross injustice. Secondly, because it implies that wearing dress (for instance) is dandy, unproblematic and acceptable into adulthood AS LONG AS YOU DON'T HAVE A PENIS.  This makes me sad, as I know many people with penises who were raised that way and for whom it took a lot of therapy and support in their adult lives to have the confidence to do what felt best for them.

I believe strongly that children, at their purest and healthiest, have an innate understanding and comfort around gender fluidity and will experiment with all of the options that interest them and feel right. That is, if they have a healthy and supportive environment in which to do so. 

OP you seem to be seeking assistance and that is the great part! 

not that I wouldn't love him just the same,

just keep this foremost in your mindset

the bias use of the word "girly" is an insensitive word (poorly chosen IMO!) to those who children exhibit triads others view a gender specific 

[fiddlefern]

OP- I think that it's awesome that you are recognizing your own discomfort and asking for help and support as you explore your feelings.

One of my 3 best friends, as well as one of my kids' babysitters, are transgendered, and they have given me a good education over the years.  I would like to offer you some basic vocab, at least from my perspective/ understanding as someone who identifies as female and heterosexual.  If I make mistakes or offend anyone, I'd sure appreciate it if you would correct me gently.

1.  So, there's your biological sex- that has to do with your "plumbing," so to speak.  Of course this is not cut and dried, since the whole penis/ vagina dichotomy isn't really a dichotomy- there actually is a biological spectrum out there (some people are born with both, for instance).

2.  Then, there's your gender.  That's basically whether your identify as male, female, both, neither, etc.

3.  Then, there's or orientation.  So, you tend to be sexually attracted to males, you tend to be attracted to females, both, neither, etc.

I offer you this vocab as a framework.  So, for instance, a person who has a penis for plumbing, and who identifies as female, is considered "transgendered" because the plumbing and gender don't fit in society's boxes.  This is not the same as being gay.  Someone who is transgendered male-to-female might sexually prefer males, or females, both, etc.

OK, on to the whole child-rearing thing.  Because of my friends, I have done a fair amount of thinking about this.  I have two biologically male children.  I have always tried to fill our home with gender-neutral toys, and toys of all colors.  The clothing is harder because we don't have much money and get a lot of hand-me-downs and most people give us red/ blue clothes.  My 7 yo has a Barbie bike with pink and purple streamers.  He recently asked for a Barbie doll house, which I refuse to buy because it is a piece of plastic crap, but I'm thinking about painting our current wooden dollhouse pink and purple to see if that'll do the trick.  My 7 yo now clearly identifies as male, has stated this to us, and hangs out pretty exclusively with males at school right now.  My 4 yo is very fluid in his gender identification at this point (as was my 7 yo when he was 4).  We refer to the 4 yo as "he" but we downplay gender in general in our conversations with/ about our children.  Recently my 4 yo was a queen and I was the prince (role reversal!  I'm in charge of mommy!).  He has flown around the room with a playsilk shouting "I'm a princess!  I'm a wizard!  I'm a fairy!  I'm a dragon!"  Role play is a big part of the preschool years, in my opinion, including the roles of gender that they see us playing. 

I think most kids end up having their "plumbing" and their "gender" match up in traditional ways, either because this is modeled so much or because they get teased (sadder reason), or maybe a million other reason I haven't considered.  If a kid's gender doesn't end up matching their plumbing, it certainly isn't because you let them play dress-up as a preschooler.  They have a whole dichotomous world out their pushing them to conform, and if they don't conform, there must be a pretty darn good reason for it, and they need support.  I for one am hoping that my son (the one who identifies as male) continues to feel that he's "allowed" to play with dolls, ride his pink and purple bike, and to be anything he wants to be.  He's allowed to pretend to shoot bad guys, he's allowed to dress up his stuffed animals, he's allowed to build forts, he's allowed to play with Star Wars Legos, etc.

So....it's ok! :)  Your kid's ok! :) Your kid's play is ok :)  I hope I have helped you feel supported and not judged, because once again, I think it's lovely and brave of you for coming here and asking for support when you are feeling scared.  It's a hard thing to do.

[serenbat]

to add

 Role play is a big part of the preschool years, in my opinion, including the roles of gender that they see us playing. 

and to see this challenged!

my husband can't fix anything - the tools in the home are MINE and I know how to use them

males cook, males clean, males sew-etc

[meemee]

Originally Posted by clav 

I guess my fear is gay and not that I wouldn't love him just the same, but I know what my cousin went through when he came out, and to think of my son going though that kills me.  Again, I know I'm being riduculous but if anyone else has gone through this or knows of someone who has and can help with anything encouraging to say I would appreciate it.

mama i can relate to you. the bolded part esp. except my fear is not gay. it was mental illness. till a v. wise mama with a bi polar son shared her journey with me and it so deeply empowered me. 

i no longer am afraid of who my dd could be or what she could have. i am ok with her being gay, or having a mental illness or having cancer or .... just add whatever you want to here. 

because my dd will NEVER EVER be ALONE. i will always walk that path with her. she will always have a place to vent however she wants to vent and i dont care if its socially inappropriate. in my house she can be who she is. 

i encourage my dd to be who she is or what she wants to be as long as she does not hurt anyone. i think doing anything else is doing a disservice for her. if playing with boys all the time today means tomorrow she is going to be a lesbian - who cares. we all have our own battles. life is hard dude with or without gayness. 

no matter how hard life gets my dd will always know she will ALWAYS have her mother by herside. i may not approve of her action but i will ALWAYS be there for her - no matter what - even if she is the next ax murderer. i will always visit her in prison. 

all my friends who had the hardest time with their sexuality was because their own family rejected them. others in society is hard, but being rejected by your parents is the hardest for anyone. and that will NEVER EVER be the case with my dd even if she gets pregnant at 13. 
 

[habitat]

Just wanted to share this amazing article - short and sweet.

I also wanted to say, OP, that I'm sorry for perhaps having a grumpy-ish tone in my last post. It's not because I'm judging you as a parent or that I don't think you're ready to be supportive. But it was 2am and I get a little bit, ummm, funny at that time. And when I saw the post I wanted to respond ASAP.

Anyhow, you've gotten a lot of good feedback here, especially from fiddlefern. She put it way better than I did - super awesome post/vocab outline/analysis, Mama!

I know that challenging the gender binary is really hard, but I hope you continue to ask questions and seek support when you feel like you're struggling. That takes so much in itself and is such an important step!

[Elcie]

In response to the original poster, my daughter's best friend (male) is very into typically girl things. His parents have been supportive of his interests and he is loved and accepted by his friends (more girls than boys, but not exclusively.) I think what has helped him avoid being teased is his parents complete acceptance of his interests from an early age, which has given him a great deal of confidence in who he is. Best wishes to you as you support your son -- he sounds like a wonderful, creative kid.

[Hoopin' Mama]

Curious about the OP's limited post history.

[serenbat]

Curious about the OP's limited post history.

given the other OP posts - comes across to me as a very difficult situation for the OP (who, IMO needs understanding and has a lot to process) 

[Elcie]

I'm curious about the comment on the OP's "limited post history." I saw a similar comment on another thread as well. Doesn't everyone have to start somewhere? Or is it not considered etiquette on this forum to start a thread until you've been around a while? (I am also quite new here, coming from the magazine realm.) Thanks in advance for any insights.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Elcie 

I'm curious about the comment on the OP's "limited post history." I saw a similar comment on another thread as well. Doesn't everyone have to start somewhere? Or is it not considered etiquette on this forum to start a thread until you've been around a while? (I am also quite new here, coming from the magazine realm.) Thanks in advance for any insights.

A new relatively new member, with only a few posts, who asks about a sensitive topic - these may be signs of someone who is not posting in good faith. Rather, they may be trying to stir up some excitement by baiting people to post on a hot topic. It happens often enough that people are a little wary when there's a thread with some hot button issues. 

I'm NOT suggesting that this is the case in this thread. I usually like to give people the benefit of doubt. 

I think MDC is welcoming to new members who post, so don't hesitate to ask questions or respond on threads. Just understand that some will be a little cautious until you become a little more familiar. 

Oh, and 

[clav]

I can assure you that I am posting in good faith.  I'm a working mom that has two small children, so I don't have a lot of time to post and read others posts.  I've struggled with this for a while now, know it is my issue and not my sons.  My son is a happy boy who loves everyone.  Like I said before I will love my son no matter what.  Would it take some adjusting absolutely but i love him no matter what.  My concern is how others would treat him.  I know some family members who think horrible things about my cousin because he is gay that they never said when they thought he is hetro.  None of them have said it in front of me or they would get a piece of my mind, but I just don't want my son to go through that.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by clav 

I can assure you that I am posting in good faith.  I'm a working mom that has two small children, so I don't have a lot of time to post and read others posts.  I've struggled with this for a while now, know it is my issue and not my sons.  My son is a happy boy who loves everyone.  Like I said before I will love my son no matter what.  Would it take some adjusting absolutely but i love him no matter what.  My concern is how others would treat him.  I know some family members who think horrible things about my cousin because he is gay that they never said when they thought he is hetro.  None of them have said it in front of me or they would get a piece of my mind, but I just don't want my son to go through that.

And a belated  to you too! There's been some good discussion here, I hope it's been helpful.