Why test? - Page 2

[Tigerle]

As the OP hasn't commented on the issue herself yet, I hope it's okay to chime in with information I remember from a different thread about the OP's daughter before this thread gets derailed any further by speculation about the secret dark agenda on the part of the school, namely that the school her DH teaches at is an international school in Belgium with a population of 78% of gifted or high ability kids. So state funding is probably not an issue, and I assume that tuition would be free or heavily reduced for staff children. So all the school/the gifted ed teacher stands to gain from this is another bright little kid enriching the classroom atmosphere.

Now, I suppose it is possible that the teacher will do nothing with this student and with the others in her class. That's one of the reasons I suggested in my first post that the OP should observe the class and talk to the teacher, as well as discussing it further with her DH. If the class really isn't appropriate at this time, then they will be making an informed decision. Keeping an open mind, rather than leaping to judgement on a bunch of unfounded assumptions, is a very good strategy to model for children. 

What Ollyoxenfree said. The OP doesn't want to do what the teacher suggested, so she doesn't have to, but why not try it out, for the child's sake? Are you worried about the "slippery slope" Miranda mentioned?

[serenbat]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

this teacher and this school are not doing a thing to educate this child yet they reap the rewards from this child, you have a 7 year old testing at a 5 grade level, you need not do any thing as a teacher yet this child will help boost your overall on paper assessment - why not want this child?

The OP is in Belgium. I admit that I'm not intimately familiar with the funding and assessment models in every country, but I do believe that the American model of rewarding teachers and schools whether directly or indirectly for high standardized test scores is rather unusual. It's certainly looked upon very oddly by my Canadian compatriots. Here poor test scores and/or waning test scores are seen as demonstrating a need for extra funding, programs, resources and such.

So state funding is probably not an issue, and I assume that tuition would be free or heavily reduced for staff children.

without the op chiming in- no one really does know, there must be some reason they are allowed to keep test scores for non-attending students (as in my state-it's financial) IMO I can't imagine too many reasons as to why they would want the test scores with a motive of some type given they test so often - must mean something to someone 

International schools funded by the US must comply with NCLBA

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

 it's not an assumption to already know the school is getting credit for this child they are not educating, I highly doubt if the child is in this class the teacher is not being assessed on their performance and scores

It is an assumption that the teacher has only suggested testing and joining the class because she has a personal, impure motive.  Implying that the teacher has acted only for her own benefit is unfair, to say the least.   

[serenbat]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

 it's not an assumption to already know the school is getting credit for this child they are not educating, I highly doubt if the child is in this class the teacher is not being assessed on their performance and scores

It is an assumption that the teacher has only suggested testing and joining the class because she has a personal, impure motive.  Implying that the teacher has acted only for her own benefit is unfair, to say the least.   

I stand by my "assumption" I have a friend that teaches at an international (US funded) school.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

No, the school isn't contributing to the child's education, but they have an opportunity for this student, and they are offering it. The parents need not take it. If the child is happy at home and the parents think he gets enough time negotiating with/playing with other children, then he doesn't need it. But nothing the OP has said indicates that it might be a bad fit. What she asked was "is it worth testing?" It is if the parents want the child to attend the program, it's probably not if they don't.

This may have been said upthread, so forgive me if I'm repeating it. It occurs to me, OP, that you may want to take this one step at a time.  

Your DS may be bright and an accomplished reader, but not gifted. His test results may not qualify him for the gifted program.

If he doesn't qualify for the class, you have no further worries about it. (Although there is still your DH's working-with-others concerns that you may want to address with him). 

If the test results qualify for gifted, then you and your DH and your DS can decide whether it's the right program and the right time for your DS to attend.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I stand by my "assumption" I have a friend that teaches at an international (US funded) school.

And your friend only ever acts for her/his own benefit, never for the benefit of her/his students? And based on her/his poor behaviour, you condemn every teacher at every school on the globe, on the assumption that they all act only for their own benefit? 

[serenbat]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I stand by my "assumption" I have a friend that teaches at an international (US funded) school.

And your friend only ever acts for her/his own benefit, never for the benefit of her/his students? And based on her/his poor behaviour, you condemn every teacher at every school on the globe, on the assumption that they all act only for their own benefit? 

you really seem to have some issues here! thanks so much for putting words in my mouth------talk about "assumptions"

I don't know where you live but the teachers that I know (be it PS, private, and two I know who teach at international schools) all NOW do deal with performance reviews and test scores factor into that as well as overall student performance.

You seem to making a lot of assumptions that this is just simply all one sided even given that the school records the test scores. 

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by serenbat 
 

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I stand by my "assumption" I have a friend that teaches at an international (US funded) school.

And your friend only ever acts for her/his own benefit, never for the benefit of her/his students? And based on her/his poor behaviour, you condemn every teacher at every school on the globe, on the assumption that they all act only for their own benefit? 

 

you really seem to have some issues here! thanks so much for putting words in my mouth------talk about "assumptions"

I don't know where you live but the teachers that I know (be it PS, private, and two I know who teach at international schools) all NOW do deal with performance reviews and test scores factor into that as well as overall student performance.

You seem to making a lot of assumptions that this is just simply all one sided even given that the school records the test scores. 

I'm just trying to figure out what you mean. You suggest that the teacher is acting for her benefit, not a child's and that she won't do anything if he's in the class. You make a fairly cryptic statement that you stand by your assumption because you know another teacher, but don't say how that fact is evidence against the teacher's motives in the OP.  

Yeah, I have an issue about unfounded allegations. I'm kinda funny that way, I guess.

Edited by ollyoxenfree - 1/17/12 at 8:42am

[KathrynH]

I was in GT in kindergarten, but for 1st grade I moved to a private school that did not have a GT program. I don't remember too much about my K experience, but I do remember the GT classes, and how much I loved them. It was with a very small group of other children and we moved at a faster pace, which I enjoyed much more than the slow pace of the regular classroom. 

Unfortunately, I did not get to continue this type of program in my new school. We did group work often in the regular classroom, but I hated it. I hated it in middle school, in high school, and in college. I continue to despise it in graduate school. I'd rather just do the work myself and turn it in. I never learned to work with others well. I've tried to teach myself how, and I get by ok, but I think it would be better if I'd had someone help me learn the necessary skills. There are unique reasons that GT kids don't like group projects, but it is important. The world after school if filled with cooperative projects: Surgeons have to work with nurses and anesthesiologists, lawyers have to work with clients and judges, teachers have to work with administrators and parents, etc. 

As for the testing... I LOVED standardized tests when I was younger. There were all sorts of neat and challenging problems that we didn't tackle in the classroom. We were stuck doing AAB patterns, but the tests would have +1, +3, +1, +3 patterns. I thought it was so much fun. Your child might feel the same way - who knows?

I'm obviously biased due to my own experiences, but I'd at least try it out. I don't think any harm will come from it. 

[serenbat]

As for the testing... I LOVED standardized tests when I was younger.

that's great for some and for certain reasons

as I stated my state keeps scores they do not earn- I have a ethical problem with that (but it's legal here!)- as a parent I also object to excessive testing when the motive is suspect- testing certainly has it purpose but there are other way of determine certain objectives without testing 

as far as the OP and her questing I (as stated) would not do it and find what they are doing very excessive

just because a child enjoys it - IMO doesn't make it a great thing all the time and I would certainly give it lots of consideration if it is in fact a positive thing in the long run for the child-again, at this age given OP doesn't want the child in a school setting, I see not reason at all here 

I also do not read anyplace that the OP states (out of the norm as to what is required regardless of the child is in the class) that the teacher is going to do "special" for just this child

as I did post - 

as far as how much the teacher is putting into this child (the teacher has to prepare the work regardless of the child)

nothing is mentioned as to tutoring, extra help, etc that would indicate that the gifted teacher is doing something beyond for this child that she is not doing for the others already there

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

 it's not an assumption to already know the school is getting credit for this child they are not educating, I highly doubt if the child is in this class the teacher is not being assessed on their performance and scores

It is an assumption. You are assuming, because that's the way it works in your state, that all schools do this. I also detect a strong underlying current of hostility toward schools. You have given no evidence to support your claims.

Originally Posted by serenbat 

 not reason at all here 

I also do not read anyplace that the OP states (out of the norm as to what is required regardless of the child is in the class) that the teacher is going to do "special" for just this child

as I did post - 

nothing is mentioned as to tutoring, extra help, etc that would indicate that the gifted teacher is doing something beyond for this child that she is not doing for the others already there

Have you taught in a classroom? do you deny that the classroom dynamic will change?

And so what if the teacher is "just" including him in an activity for others already there. Will the child benefit? Then why not take advantage of it? Or does your deep seated distrust of school systems mean that you can't ever see that a child might get something out of a 2x a week class doing projects?

[TiredX2]

While this is an interesting converstaion, I'm not sure it's really helpful to the OP's concerns.

Can we get back to discussing the OP's considerations regarding her DS and the possible part-time gifted program?

[serenbat]

Both my children are registered in the school as non-attending students, so their scores are put into the system for the classes they are "registered" for but don't attend. 

schools test for a myriad of reasons, chiefly financial 

private institutions test (besides for financial reason) to assess progress of material, teaching styles and or teachers - in this case the child in question he is not being "taught" at the school- this would become a mute point and there is no bases for assessing this student if they are not following the curriculum to the letter and in institution, and furthermore the school would have responsibility for the education of the child (home schooling is different from home-bound education conducted and overseen by an institution- the OP has not indicated homebound but homeschooled)

if the scores are "kept" for the purpose of a state/govt. requirement, some one wants them for some reason- they mean something to some institution (again if the child is not being educated within the school, that can be view as unethical)- funding is based on need and not too many govts hand out money without wanting to see a return (scores) especially to a private school

private schools, in the US and in other westernized countries that do not receive govt support must "sell themselves" and their product is their scores, having the best and brightest teaches in only one component-what they deliver is another thing

[HeatherB]

As the OP is familiar with this school and has far more information on it than those of us on the other side of the world, I'd like to ask that the discussion track shift back to thoughts on whether or not testing would benefit her son at this point in time. Further speculation on the priorities of the school and teacher are not helpful.

We need to remember that our own experiences are ours to own, but don't necessarily translate to anyone else's situation. Let's share our constructive and helpful ideas so that the OP has as many great thoughts to draw on as possible. And, as the UA requires, please remember "to treat one other with respect and courtesy at all times."

Thanks!

[serenbat]

with the absent of the OP stating what type of testing the child would have for the gifted program, there is no way to know if they could use that testing scores for other programs outside of the school or not

regardless of what dynamic the classroom would or would not add to the child, it is all pure speculation at this point

I think greater respect for the OP and her desire to HS is being overlooked at the cost of an unknown for the child (if he were to be put in the program), IMO that is missing the whole point here.

[ChristaN]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

Schools offer gifted classes because the regular school day tends not to serve gifted children's needs fully...She doesn't need a special class twice a week as a reprieve from 3rd-grade spelling lists and multiplication worksheets.

That was my initial thought as well.  I'd want to know a few things before I considered this myself:

1. What other socialization opportunities does your child have right now without this program and are they meeting his socialization needs?
2. What does the gifted testing involve and does your child want to do it?
3. What does the gifted class look like in terms of the percentage of kids in it?
4. Is your child on a similar level to the majority of the kids in this gifted class?  (You might only know this if you agree to the testing, though)

We've done a few different things educationally for our kids at different times: homeschool, charter school, public school, and right now public choice only middle school for one and public high school that is not the assigned one for the other.

The GT pull out classes that were offered in elementary were not a good fit for my oldest for a variety of reasons.  One major issue was that they included about 20% of the kids from her grade level and she was usually the most advanced kid in the class by a large amount so it still wasn't a fit educationally or socially.  Another issue that we ran into more with my youngest in regard to GT classes was that they tended to meet the needs of high achievers who were fairly convergent thinkers moreso than very out of the box, creative kids.  The type of program you briefly describe might be better in that regard, however, than what we've had experience with. 

[treemom2]

Hello everyone and thank you for your responses!  My DH does teach at a NATO American school in Belgium.  I have posted about the school in other threads because I was having problems with my DD getting services she needs (she has been "tested" by the school and found to have processing speed issues, memory issues, and a suspected case of ADD inattentive type).  The school has a population that tends to test very high on standardized testing and many in gifted education.  If my DS was to go into the gifted classroom, he'd be in there with children of all ages. . .many labeled twice exceptional (asperger's/autism and gifted) and the class would have around 20 children at one time.  My DH says the teacher is great at challenging the children and helping them work together on different projects.  She's also good at helping the children take risks that a lot of gifted children have trouble with.  I'm honestly not sure what specific tests would be given to my DS, but I'm pretty sure he'd qualify no matter what the testing.  There are no other children in the class his age, he'd be the youngest.

As far as the type of homeschooling we do. . .we're pretty relaxed, eclectic homeschoolers and I tend to be more of an unschooling mom with my DS (not with my DD because of her memory issues).  He sets the tone for whatever "schooling" I do with him at home.  He might do a bit of math, play the piano and work on writing his own songs, read, write comics, or do art projects.  We do belong to a homeschooling group and meet with them once a week.  My DS is also in Cub Scouts and takes piano lessons.  He really enjoys being around other kids, but often finds kids his own age immature and he once asked me if I was sure of his age because he really didn't think he was the same age as the other kids who were 6/7.

The school does get funding based on enrollment.  Both my children are enrolled in the school as non-attending students (so they can participate in after school clubs and so my DD can get special education services when needed), so the school gets money for them whether they attend or not.  However, they do take the Terra Nova (starting in 3rd grade) and this testing helps with the school's status.  We wouldn't have to worry about this testing though, since neither my DD nor my DS would be taking it.  

About the reading test 4 times a year, it's the normal schedule for children at the school to take the test.  It's a short reading test. . .the kids read several passages and answer questions about them.  It has been nice to see how my DD has improved since being taken out of the school, DH does it with my DS more for fun.

I've talked with my DS about attending the gifted class.  He is curious about it.  Sometimes I do feel it's a "slippery slope" for us. . .I don't want him to get into a "school" mindset.  I'm also concerned about driving him there twice a week when we aren't near the school on those two days and how that will affect schooling with my DD. . .it's a 20 minute drive and it will really cut into our schedule.  I know that might sound selfish, but I really value my time at home with the children.

[Tigerle]

Thank you for clarifying this for us so we can stop debating this and go back to being helpful to you;).

So I understand the school is currently getting funding for your children being enrolled, which is the way you want it because it means they can access after-school activities and services, but their test scores do not impact the school's standing or funding. And the gifted classroom is pretty large, the teacher is not scouting for students because she needs to keep the numbers up or anything. So hte teacher is probably extending this offer because she sincerely feels it might benefit your child, and possibly enrich the classroom, which is also a legitimate goal, and it is really about finding out whether she is right about this benefit and what drawbacks there might be in it for you, ie the pros and cons of the class for your child, and for your family.

Additionally,  I think some of us have detected a vibe of your DH and you maybe not being quite on the same page about home-schooling versus part-time school attendance in general, and this conflict influencing your mindset? I'm just throwing it out there, in case you feel there is something of a "Will my DH's priorities or mine win out here?" feeling on your part, because I don't think that would be helpful in detrermining what the right thing to do is. I may have misunderstood this.

Honestly, the way you describe your DS being disappointed with his peer group, it might be worth a try just for what a classroom full of gifted kids a bit older than him has to offer! I am sure your DD#s schooling impacts his schedule sometimes as well - maybe you may find a good balance, or your DH can drive him on some days?

[serenbat]

, but their test scores do not impact the school's standing or funding.

the OP stated - 

However, they do take the Terra Nova (starting in 3rd grade) and this testing helps with the school's status. 

We wouldn't have to worry about this testing though, since neither my DD nor my DS would be taking it.  

or don't they?????

My DS is also in Cub Scouts and takes piano lessons.  He really enjoys being around other kids, but often finds kids his own age immature and he once asked me if I was sure of his age because he really didn't think he was the same age as the other kids who were 6/7.

is there any (outside of the school) chance for interaction outside of his peer group? any local club where this might occur (nature groups, HS groups,etc) that he could attend?

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Tigerle 
Honestly, the way you describe your DS being disappointed with his peer group, it might be worth a try just for what a classroom full of gifted kids a bit older than him has to offer! I am sure your DD#s schooling impacts his schedule sometimes as well - maybe you may find a good balance, or your DH can drive him on some days?

I completely agree with this. You could see about doing something with your DD while your son is in the program -- going to a cafe to do some work, or visiting a museum. There might be a way for this to work out well for both of them.

Homeschooling multiple kids can be tricky, but I think this decision should be based on what is best for your son.  It's really not fair to keep kids from opportunities because it's inconvenient for others, and learning in a group of intellectually peers is extremely, extremely valuable.

If you try it and it doesn't work out well for him, you don't have to keep going forever.