How do you deal with hostility?

[Nillarilla]

How do you deal with hostility from other people including friends about your child's non tax status? As in the "You are putting MY child and yours at risk by not vaccinating" "This is the same as smoking in a restaurant or driving drunk". The article are anxious parents putting others at risk is spreading through Facebook and there is a lot of people really amped up about. I had another friend concerned because a child in her daughter's daycare is untaxed and that 'makes her nervous'. How do you reply to this? 

[Taximom5]

That's a good question, and a very tough situation.

I've run into similar treatment, most notably by someone whose child had had several varicella vaccines but never developed antibodies. (She never had a case of chicken pox, either, but that's neither here nor there.)  She felt that my children were putting hers at risk.

I explained to her that my children had already had severe reactions to vaccines, and that further vaccinations were almost certain to be dangerous.

But I suspect that you want to know what to say when your children haven't had vaccines, and/or never had adverse reactions to vaccines.

In that case, fight with facts.

There have been 1297 cases of vaccine-induced brain damage admitted and compensated by the US government.  There have also been cases of vaccine-induced lupus and MS.

In other words, it's already known that vaccines can and have caused severe problems--in developed countries, no less, where sanitation and nutrition are not supposed to be problems.  The diseases vaccines are supposed to prevent hold the most risk in UNdeveloped countries.  And notice I didn't even mention autism?  

It's not necessarily about autism. It's about brain damage and autoimmune disorders.

It just so happens that autism is also about brain damage and autoimmune disorders.

You can ask your friends if they are familiar with the Hannah Poling case, where it was determined that her vaccines (9 in one visit!!!) "resulted" in autism because of a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder.  What we don't read in the mainstream media (but you can find it on PubMed) is that vaccines can CAUSE mitochondrial disorders.  So Hannah's mito disorder may have been initially CAUSED by the vaccines she received in the first few months of her life, and then TRIGGERED by the 9 vaccines she received in one day as a toddler.

Hannah Poling's mother has the same mitochondrial disorder, but is not autistic.  She also had the 7 vaccines required back in the 1970's, rather than the 36 required (in the first 18 months of life!) when Hannah was a baby.

Yes, thimerosal has been phased out of most pediatric vaccines.  But the vaccine schedule has drastically increased, even in the last decade, and most of the vaccines are adjuvanted with aluminum, which has just as many links to autoimmune disorders, neurological damage, etc. as mercury.  Did you see today's posted article about Aluminum as an adjuvant in Crohn's disease in this forum?

[Marnica]

I have found is that hostility is almost certainly fueled by ignorance, Most of the hostile types are the ones that have done no research of their own and get their information or misinformation rather from the media and mainstream biased sources. How I would handle it is ask the person how much research they have done on the subject and if they respond  - they listen to their doctor who they trust or they heard such and such on the news, I would respond by saying something like - "yes, i used to hold similar views and what I discovered through many years of research is that things are not so cut and dry and that I didn't have all the facts. I have them now and now hold a different view. I have tons of research I have accumulated over the years, I would be happy to share it with you  and talk further about your concerns" Most people get defensive and will not take you up on an offer like that. They are happy to remain shrouded in their ignorance. I have no time for people like this and frankly they can sit on it and rotate.

The people that I have come across that have done reseearch of their own, but perhaps still draw different conclusions are not the hostile ones usually. They are the ones that respect the fact that while I may share a different view, ultimately I am doing what I feel is best for my child.

[nicolebeth]

Maybe this is taking the easy way out, but this is why we never talk about it--to anyone--except for a limited number of close friends. I know there is no way I could convince anyone to believe anything we have to say. And, the things I have heard people say (or post online) prove to me that we'd be considered ignorant, dangerous, and people who should be shunned, have our children taken away, etc. So, we're the "crunchy" parents who don't do flu shots. But, I'm waiting for the day when flu shots are mandatory for school, too--which I know will be soon, given the extensive polling the state has been doing on them--and how we'll just have to lie to everyone about having received them. I've already told the kids NEVER to talk about vaccines; if someone asks, they've had them. (And, believe me, they've had many--but, even to skip a few is considered horrible among many people we know.) Sometimes, I want to move to Vermont or California. What's most difficult is how the most allegedly liberal people have the most closed minds regarding vaccines.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by nicolebeth 

Sometimes, I want to move to Vermont or California. What's most difficult is how the most allegedly liberal people have the most closed minds regarding vaccines.

I'm afraid California just passed a bill allowing children as young as 12 years old to be vaccinated with Gardasil or Hep B (or to receive any other vaccine/medication) for something transmissable by sexual contact) WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT OR KNOWLEDGE.

[nicolebeth]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I'm afraid California just passed a bill allowing children as young as 12 years old to be vaccinated with Gardasil or Hep B (or to receive any other vaccine/medication) for something transmissable by sexual contact) WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT OR KNOWLEDGE.

Yes, I know that--it's terrible. It means educating our children even more so they're not tripped up at a doctor's appointment. I can envision that happening to my DD, but she's only 9; I'm hopeful she'll be stronger as she gets older. More generally, I'm hopeful that this law will be challenged. If enough parents specifically state, ahead of time, that their child is NOT to receive certain vaccines, I'm guessing that would trump the law (after all, the law allows the minors to consent--but doesn't say what would happen if the parents had preemptively stepped in here--would they take the parent to Court?). I would send an affidavit/declaration with my child (and probably would not let them be seen alone).

[Peony]

I'm another one has rarely mentions it. If directly asked then I will answer truthfully, but even if tax conversations are going on, I stay quiet unless someone literally says, "And what do you do Peony". I used to be very upfront about my beliefs and then it came to bite me in the butt big time. We got a VPD which was well known because my DD2 was quite ill for months, in and out of the of hospital, anyway, numerous people shunned us. And then I could get to hear about how I brought it onto myself. So now I no longer say anything. 

[Igraine]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I'm afraid California just passed a bill allowing children as young as 12 years old to be vaccinated with Gardasil or Hep B (or to receive any other vaccine/medication) for something transmissable by sexual contact) WITHOUT PARENTAL CONSENT OR KNOWLEDGE.

How can that be possible!? I am concerned too about the things going in in Vermont that may ban the philosophical exemption for vaccines. So much is going on that I am having a hard time keeping track. My physician, who has been very flexible with our family, closed his practice and combined with another one. I am worried about how my children's vaccine status will be interpreted. Lots to think about.

[bygones75]

Originally Posted by Marnica 
The people that I have come across that have done reseearch of their own, but perhaps still draw different conclusions are not the hostile ones usually. They are the ones that respect the fact that while I may share a different view, ultimately I am doing what I feel is best for my child.

  I've learned who to share our non-vax status with, friend-wise.  They respect our decision, even if they've done differently, because they're educated enough to know that it was made in our child's best interest and with much thought and research.

Fear and ignorance go hand in hand, which I learned in my family's case.  In hindsight, I shouldn't have told them. 

In most cases, you're going to know ahead of time who's going to have a panicked reaction about your child not being vaxed.  So don't share the info.  It's a non-issue if they don't know.  I have a hard time not being honest, but with my kid in the middle of it, it's become easier to hide the truth from people who cannot possibly handle it.

[bygones75]

Originally Posted by nicolebeth What's most difficult is how the most allegedly liberal people have the most closed minds regarding vaccines.

I've noticed this too, and really don't understand it.  It's seems hypocritical too; my most liberal friends and family HATE corporations and pharmaceutical companies, but are terrified at the thought of someone not vaxing because they don't trust said companies.  It doesn't make sense to me at all. 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by nicolebeth 

Yes, I know that--it's terrible. It means educating our children even more so they're not tripped up at a doctor's appointment. I can envision that happening to my DD, but she's only 9; I'm hopeful she'll be stronger as she gets older. More generally, I'm hopeful that this law will be challenged. If enough parents specifically state, ahead of time, that their child is NOT to receive certain vaccines, I'm guessing that would trump the law (after all, the law allows the minors to consent--but doesn't say what would happen if the parents had preemptively stepped in here--would they take the parent to Court?). I would send an affidavit/declaration with my child (and probably would not let them be seen alone).

1)  My second baby was vaxed at 4 hours old, without my permission, knowledge, and against my written (and pediatrician-signed) instructions.  Instructions mean nothing.

2) Clinics and school nurses will be able to give these vaccines, again, without parental knowledge.  I've already talked to parents whose daughters were instructed by school nurses to get their "anti-cancer" vaccine (Gardasil).

[nicolebeth]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

1)  My second baby was vaxed at 4 hours old, without my permission, knowledge, and against my written (and pediatrician-signed) instructions.  Instructions mean nothing.

2) Clinics and school nurses will be able to give these vaccines, again, without parental knowledge.  I've already talked to parents whose daughters were instructed by school nurses to get their "anti-cancer" vaccine (Gardasil).

That's terrible. We heard stories like yours, which is why with #2 and #3, we never left them. We were the first people the nurses had seen who went for the heel sticks. (#1 had the Hep B shot; we didn't know better then.) We also noticed you could "decline the shot" or "refuse the shot"--we commented to one of the nurses about this--she said some people will vaccinate at their pediatrician's office and some will never do it. We chose decline; no need for an argument.

Ah, I didn't realize it wasn't just doctor's offices where kids didn't need parental consent. Even worse to have that happen at school with all of the peer pressure. Forgetting the efficacy and/or potential dangerousness of vaccines, I don't think schools are the place for them--how is that a sterile environment?

[nicolebeth]

Originally Posted by Igraine 

How can that be possible!? I am concerned too about the things going in in Vermont that may ban the philosophical exemption for vaccines. So much is going on that I am having a hard time keeping track. My physician, who has been very flexible with our family, closed his practice and combined with another one. I am worried about how my children's vaccine status will be interpreted. Lots to think about.

VT might ban the philosophical exemption? Aside from the picturesqueness of Burlington, that was one of the reasons why VT remains this mythical, idyllic place to live (in my mind).

[kathymuggle]

1.  do not tell people in real life.  Stop if you have started 

2.  do not engage in arguments online if it is bad for your mental health

3.  To the best of your abilities, surround yourself with open-minded people

4.  Know this will pass.  Vax talk is largely the domain of certain age groups, when you are not in that group, the topic rarely comes up.

[sassyfirechick]

I thought I got a lot of slack when I stopped vaxing my dogs because of horrible reactions, but it's nothing compared to what my "friends" say when I mention delaying  vax for my daughter or not doing them at all.  Unfortunately our group of friends consists largely of nurses, emt's, and other conventional medical fields that shun outside beliefs.  I'm learning to just not say anything although there are times I can't help myself arguing to defend my decisions...my MIL is one of the worst accusers even though my husband stands right by me.  Also have one friend (ER nurse) who even if I don't bring up the topic, will do so herself just to chastize me, it's great considering we are the godparents to her youngest and never talk badly about the decisions they make with their 4 children (mcdonald's on a daily basis, a 10yr old on laxatives since he was 1...).  Thank god my parents are open minded and my husband, although slow, is coming around to my decisions.

[Nillarilla]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I just have to choose who to have the conversations with. I know that as a mother I am influential to a lot of other mother's with my choices. Selectively/delayed/not vaxing is a huge parenting choice that I wish I did not have to hide. I am a nurse and I make different choices than many of my coworkers and friends and they do often directly ask me what I do. These are not usually the people that I feel the hostility from. It's my doctor, the school nurse, some of the other mother's online. I just feel a little ticked that some mother's can post angry/hostile posts about other parents choices without being informed/educated about it and lead others astray. But I guess I just need to let go and realize it's not my responsibility to educate them. Taximom your post was very helpful thank you! I often have trouble articulating my reasons effectively.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Nillarilla 

 Taximom your post was very helpful thank you! I often have trouble articulating my reasons effectively.

You're welcome!  I have a much easier time articulating them on paper (or computer screen) rather than talking about them.  

[Asiago]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

 most of the vaccines are adjuvanted with aluminum, which has just as many links to autoimmune disorders, neurological damage, etc. as mercury.  Did you see today's posted article about Aluminum as an adjuvant in Crohn's disease in this forum?

Aluminum may also be an issue in feline vaccines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1394143