Post-Gardasil Syndrome - Page 4

[Marnica]

Handing VIS sheets to parents does not equal informed consent. There are no federal laws governing informed consent when it comes to vaccines. Some states may have them, you'd have to check out each state individually...Only a law (put into effect after the 1986 vaccine injury compensation law) to hand out the sheets - this is the problem because I am of the opinion that the VIS do not provide a parent with enough balanced information to make an informed choice.

 

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

No, I do not think a 12 year old is capable of informed consent.

I think parents are capable of informed consent, even if doctors are scary and work in big buildings. Life is scary and complicated, and vax isn't the only hard decision parents have to educate themselves about. You'd have to live under a rock these days not to know that people are talking about vax, that there is contoversy. If folks put their head in the sand, then what?

You are giving me the same non-answer- parents don't know, parents are intimidated, etc.

Okay, what would informed consent look like to you anywhere, with anyone? What steps need to be taken to make sure parents know the pros and cons of the situation?

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

I don't remember signing anything for my kids' shots, and certainly not one signature for each vaccine given - that would be 5 or 6 for each of the first few WBVs, wouldn't it?  

I'm in Canada, not the US, but I don't remember ever signing a consent for my kids. (DD2 hasn't had any vaxes, but ds1 was fully vaxed - much, much smaller schedule then! - and dd1 and ds2 have both been partially vaxed.) I verbally gave or refused consent, but there was never any paperwork.

ETA: The VIS you guys are talking about. Am I understanding that they're handed out before the vax is given? I'm just trying to get a handle on how things work in the US. I've had those sheets, but they're basically "your child may develop a fever, or spot at the injection site - don't worry about it. If they have blah-blah-blah (I don't recall the specifics, as I haven't taken any of my kids in for....4.5 years or so), or you have any concerns, contact your doctor". But, those sheets are handed out after the shots, and I don't think I every got any that were vaccine specific. They were just a generic "your child just had a vax" thing.

Edited by Storm Bride - 1/18/12 at 1:47pm

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

I have had to sign a form each time for each vaccine. Is this not a standard?

It's not here.  I have never signed for one, but my doctor does talk about the ones we're doing, reasons we are or aren't getting certain ones, and I get the info sheets for each one every time.

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by miriam 

You seem to be here to make fun of a serious subject, ... why?  Vaccine reactions are real and serious. 

Doctors are scary and intimidating. Big buildings come from big money, power and confidence in a system.  

I am sure you know that, but choose instead to make fun of a serious point that involves people's lives. 

Gardasil® How was it studied 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2…

http://www.pharmalot.com/2012/01/what-da…

http://www.scribd.com/doc/76789590/Human…
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2…
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20…

 

I'm really not making fun of the subject. I do believe vaccine reactions are real and can be serious. It's why I've made difficult choices with dh for our second child. That's not what you and I were talking about.

Several posters here have said that the system does not provide parents with enough information for informed consent, and I have asked several times in several ways what that might look like. (I suggested that VIS sheets would let people know what vaccines they were getting for their child, not that handing them out equals informed consent.)

You keep repeating "reasons" why parents don't question doctors...

I gave informed consent and I would love it if everyone could. It is a serious question- what can the system, or somebody outside the system, do to provide parents with the skills and knowledge to make this decision. Both sides of the vax story are out there. How can you make sure parents have them?

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

I'm really not making fun of the subject. I do believe vaccine reactions are real and can be serious. It's why I've made difficult choices with dh for our second child. That's not what you and I were talking about.

Several posters here have said that the system does not provide parents with enough information for informed consent, and I have asked several times in several ways what that might look like. (I suggested that VIS sheets would let people know what vaccines they were getting for their child, not that handing them out equals informed consent.)

You keep repeating "reasons" why parents don't question doctors...

I gave informed consent and I would love it if everyone could. It is a serious question- what can the system, or somebody outside the system, do to provide parents with the skills and knowledge to make this decision. Both sides of the vax story are out there. How can you make sure parents have them?

I believe that part of informed consent is also understanding that vaccines are optional.  Most doctors don't provide that information, and yes, it is a parent's responsibility to educate themselves, but when you have been told repeatedly the typical pro-vax lip service, including that your child NEEDS to be vaccinated or they cannot attend school, then it doesn't really matter what the hypothetical consequences of vaccinating are.  It's an authoritarian, do it or we'll spank you kind of system.  And at the end of the day, it's also a do it or we'll spank you, and then turn our backs when your child has a vaccine injury system - by law no less!

[JavaJunkie]

I have lived in 3 different states, have four children, and have taken those children to 6 separate pediatric practices over the years(from 1997 to the present) for vaccines. I have had to sign for every single vaccine, and have been given the VIS for every single vaccine.

[Imakcerka]

In my experience, in the military.  I didn't sign anything at the clinic.  I took my kids the gave them their shots and a sticker.  Everytime I got a new print out to reflect their current vaccinations.  Nothing else. Nothing signed by me.

[nia82]

Yup, same here, no VIS sheets, no consent forms - this is at 2 different military clinics and 3 different doctor's offices (pediatric, in WY and CA). the base hands out a flyer stressing the importance of vaccines and to give the child TYlenol before and after shots. That's it. The civilians don't even give any sheets, nothing to sign, nada. Same goes for adult vaccines, when I had them in NH and NC, no sheets, no consent forms, no nothing. This was all between 2006 and 2012!

[member234098]

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Edited by member234098 - 5/27/12 at 2:53pm

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by miriam 

More on those poor girls in upstate NY.

http://todayhealth.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/20/10199663-doctor-offers-new-details-on-teen-girls-mystery-illness

Interesting that they brought up "mass hysteria."

http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm

Ergot Poisoning - the cause of the Salem Witch Trials

 

[member234098]

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Edited by member234098 - 5/27/12 at 2:51pm

[ammiga]

I would also say the same about you. On the one hand, you say that VAERS is an unreliable source and shouldn't be taken as fact. You truly minimize the system, even showing how someone can turn into the Incredible Hulk by getting a certain vaccine. Then you tell someone to go and post her experiences there. Why bother? The system is minimized by doctors, and said to be an unreliable source of information. Sure, you might tell people to look there or even report a problem, but then you turn around and say we can't trust what we read there.
 

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

That's why I've written this.  If few people know they can report a reaction, hopefully I've made some aware now that they can.  Yet, you called me cavalier and flippant for telling Taximom that she can report a reaction herself.  I can't win with you, can I?

The vaccine info sheet given has the VAERs information on it.  As for parents not knowing what vaccines their child gets at any one visit, I can't place the blame of that on anyone but the parents.  They sign the consent and at least a my ped's office, it gets written down on a card that I get a copy of.  It's the doctor's responsibility to give the information to the patient- what the patient then does with that information is up to them.

You still haven't told me who doctors will get in trouble with by reporting vaccine reactions.  And what kind of trouble are we talking about here, anyway?

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by miriam 

I know.  That came to my mind too.  I doubt there is much rye flour in that town, though.  Just a guess.

My point is not that we should be looking for ergot poisoning, but that what the magazine held up as an example of mass hysteria WASN'T MASS HYSTERIA. There was something truly chemical--WITHOUT A PSYCHOLOGICAL ORIGIN--going on there.

I believe the same is likely to be true with the girls in NY.

Until we hear convincing evidence that recent vaccines, such as Gardasil and the flu shot, have been ruled out as a common denominator, that would be my first guess.

My second guess would be something similar to ergot poisoning, in something they would have all eaten or drank.

My third guess would be that they were all experimenting with the same drugs.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by ammiga 

I would also say the same about you. On the one hand, you say that VAERS is an unreliable source and shouldn't be taken as fact. You truly minimize the system, even showing how someone can turn into the Incredible Hulk by getting a certain vaccine. Then you tell someone to go and post her experiences there. Why bother? The system is minimized by doctors, and said to be an unreliable source of information. Sure, you might tell people to look there or even report a problem, but then you turn around and say we can't trust what we read there.
 

Not at all.  I have not said that VAERS is an unreliable source, I simply said that things reported to it have not been proven.  Here is the exact exchange:

Originally Posted by momof3loverof1 

I will look it up ,but there have been something to the tune of 197 Gardasil deaths that have been proven and reported to VAERS. Or are you looking for ones who haven't died but had an adverse reaction?

Just because something is in VAERS does not mean it has been proven. It is a passive reporting system- anyone can report anything. One guy reported that a vaccine turned him into the Incredible Hulk- that made it into the database. He writes about it here. neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/14/

The only thing I was stating was that things reported to it are not facts, just reports.  I think VAERS is very valuable.  It is an early warning system.  As a matter of fact, it is how problems with the first rotavirus vaccines were picked up.  However, I while I would recommend that someone report an adverse effect to VAERS, I would not recommend that they look there as a source for information, since it is just raw data.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by ammiga 

I would also say the same about you. On the one hand, you say that VAERS is an unreliable source and shouldn't be taken as fact. You truly minimize the system, even showing how someone can turn into the Incredible Hulk by getting a certain vaccine. Then you tell someone to go and post her experiences there. Why bother? The system is minimized by doctors, and said to be an unreliable source of information. Sure, you might tell people to look there or even report a problem, but then you turn around and say we can't trust what we read there.
 

I have to say, I agree.  

WildKingdom--how is it helpful and supportive to tell me I can report a reaction myself, when doctors like you dismiss any reaction not reported by a doctor?

I've actually been through this with FRIENDS who are doctors, who roll their eyes when I tell them that my child had a seizure reaction to vaccines.  They only stop rolling them when I tell them that both the pediatrician and the neurologist said it was a seizure reaction. Then they sit up and listen.  And these are my FRIENDS, who know me, know I'm well-educated, am extremely unlikely to over-react, and that if anything, I am more likely NOT to call the doctor than to call in unnecessarily.  But their knee-jerk reaction is, if I'm blaming vaccines for ANYTHING, I've got to be desperately grasping at straws.

I'd ask, "what does it take for a doctor to recognize that parents are actually telling the truth about their childrens' vaccine reactions?"  But I already know the answer.  Most of you won't "get it" until it's your own child who is reacting.

I know I didn't "get it" until it was my child.

[WildKingdom]

Taximom- please read my above post.  I think we cross-posted.  Again, I do not dismiss any reaction not reported by a doctor, and I do not see where I've ever said that.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

Several posters here have said that the system does not provide parents with enough information for informed consent, and I have asked several times in several ways what that might look like. 

In my case, I was given a form that ONLY listed soreness, redness, fever, and irritability as possible side effects.  They got around the legal issues by writing it as "side effects include..." which leaves the door open to anything.

I was NOT told that side effects included seizures.

When my child had a seizure reaction, I called in; the nurse told me that vaccines don't cause serious problems, and that I was a hysterical new mom, over-reacting to a "little fussiness."

My experience is not unique. It is actually the norm for parents of the many children who have vaccine reactions.

We not only did NOT have informed consent, but we had to fight to get anyone to admit that our children did have reactions!

[ammiga]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Taximom- please read my above post.  I think we cross-posted.  Again, I do not dismiss any reaction not reported by a doctor, and I do not see where I've ever said that.

So you think people should go there to report reactions, but not to see what reactions are being reported?

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

My experience is not unique. It is actually the norm for parents of the many children who have vaccine reactions.

We not only did NOT have informed consent, but we had to fight to get anyone to admit that our children did have reactions!

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

Several posters here have said that the system does not provide parents with enough information for informed consent, and I have asked several times in several ways what that might look like.

I gave informed consent and I would love it if everyone could. It is a serious question- what can the system, or somebody outside the system, do to provide parents with the skills and knowledge to make this decision. Both sides of the vax story are out there. How can you make sure parents have them?

Okay I'll bite one more time, then I think I'll give up. I have agreed to the point made repeatedly here that parents who give consent for vax are not giving informed consent for various and many reasons, some more valid than others IMHO. 

How would a system (our system) ensure informed consent, especially since just about everyone here thinks the VIS suck even when they are actually handed out.

What are some suggestions for informing parents? What does informed consent look like to you? What would informed consent look like to a doctor who administers vax?

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

Okay I'll bite one more time, then I think I'll give up. I have agreed to the point made repeatedly here that parents who give consent for vax are not giving informed consent for various and many reasons, some more valid than others IMHO. 

How would a system (our system) ensure informed consent, especially since just about everyone here thinks the VIS suck even when they are actually handed out.

What are some suggestions for informing parents? What does informed consent look like to you? What would informed consent look like to a doctor who administers vax?

i think informed consent should look like a packet of info coming from the OB/GYN or pedi of choice as soon as a person knows they are pregnant,and requests such packet of info.   In in should be info regarding the vaxes received in the first year or two.  Then it is up to the parents and puts the responsibility on the parents to make that informed choice for their child.  Some parents are going to still just go with the flow and and have a "whatever the dr says" attitude, regardless of a packet of info for informed consent.