Pitbull moved into apartment building - Page 2

[ChristyMarie]

Originally Posted by Just1More 

I agree that it's about the owner, BUT, there are breed differences.  I got a lab mix after having a border collie/gsd mix, and the difference is HUGE.  It's not just those two dogs, either.  I've met quite a few, and breed tendencies absolutly exist.  A golden retriever needs loving and compainionship, but other than drool and jumping, you can mostly ignore all training/walking/etc, and get away with it just fine.  A german shepherd (or any other fighting or working dog) needs constant training, mental stimulation, and exercise.  Slipping on its behavior instruction for even a short time can have disasterous consequences.  Those are very hands on dogs.  They are bred to be.  I mean, that is the reason for different kinds of dogs...they are used for different things.  Having a bull fighting dog cooped up in an apartment is a very bad idea.  Did you know that pit bulls were often called "nanny dogs", and protected the children?  They are very loyal.  But...they still need a lot of attention and training.

Yes, labs, etc, can and do bite, and, I believe they are, actually, statistically the worst.  I suspect that is because they are generally docile, however, and people let their kids all over them.  Or, perhaps, the statistics are skewed because a lot more people own them?   I don't know...I honestly haven't looked into it enough.

My point is that, yes, all dogs are a concern, and it really is how they are handled, but there is a significant aspect to breeding and training.  As such, I would not be happy with a pitbull, gsd, or any other high energy breed.  Even if you have several good meetings with this dog, I would not trust it alone, period.  The daily situation changes so frequently with that type of dog, that they can be "keyed up" from being crated, or whatever, moreso than a calmer breed.  The fact of it living there would be okay.  The shared yard.  Not at all. 

If you are not a dog person, I would suggest that you get a few books on dog mannerisms, and get a feel for what a dog is trying to communicate, and how to appropriately respond.  The Other End of the Leash (Patricia McConnel) and On Talking Terms With Dogs (Turid Rugass) might be good places to start.  For example, when a dog is displaying aggression, looking away and yawning, licking your lips, and relaxing your body posture tells the dog you are not a threat.  Trying to bend down and talk soothingly to it, and reaching out your hand, however, can seem very threatening to a dog.  Facing a dog and telling it to come often will not work, but turning and walking while saying come will.  The reason for this is that the dog firstly understands more clearly what you mean, the second is that if you go quickly at all, the chase instinct is aroused in the dog.  That chase instinct, especially combined with a scared, screaming child, can illicit a prey response. 

Anyway, just a few examples.

Again, I'm not a pit hater, or any other high energy or working dog breed.  I do, however, feel very strongly about the needs of dogs who were bred to work.  I'm not a trainer, but I have done a good deal of reading, and have owned 10 dogs, and been involved with several litters of puppies. 

Statistics to back up your statement please.  Because, frankly, I think you pulled the bolded out of thin air with absolutely no proof beyond your thoughts.  And from the statements you made in this post that are incorrect (especially about goldens and german shepherds) I'm not sure your thoughts on dog breeds are all that accurate.  This thread does not need any more false truths about dogs in it.

If you want to provide the relevant data to back up your statements I will be happy to reconsider my position on the topic.
 

[Maedze]

I do recall reading from a reputable source that labs are the number 1 source of American bites, but it was a while back, and I am not invested enough in this debate to google, LOL.

[Just1More]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

I do recall reading from a reputable source that labs are the number 1 source of American bites, but it was a while back, and I am not invested enough in this debate to google, LOL.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by ChristyMarie 

And from the statements you made in this post that are incorrect (especially about goldens and german shepherds) I'm not sure your thoughts on dog breeds are all that accurate. 

Which?

And, I really don't care to argue.  

However, for summation and clarification, the points I intended to make were as follows:

1. That I agree that the issue is dog ownership.

2. That a lesser energy breed will afford more room for error in responsible dog ownership.  My thoughts about goldens and gsds were, as I said, from my reading and my experience, which I said was limited.  I still firmly believe that a golden is way less work than a gsd, or even more so, a border collie.  Why do they have huge lists about which breed will work best for your family?  Because breeds, in general, have characteristics that tend one way or another.

3. That a dog, no matter the breed, not having its individual needs met, can and will go bonkers.  I cannot believe that a working dog, not exercised and stimulated sufficiently, will not have issues.  I will concede that many of the gsds in America, for example, are not championship dogs, and have muted characteristics.  That does lean toward a broader personality, and less drive, than much of the reading I have done indicates.  The point remains...a dog left to himself will likely get into trouble, and with a working dog, quicker than others.

And, most importantly to the OP:

4. That if you are uncertain of a dog, with an uncertain background, and an uncertain level of responsible ownership, you ought to look into ways of communicating to a dog.  The purpose being to avoid encouraging aggression.  Many of the common ways people respond to dogs actually increase aggression. 

5. That there is no way I would allow said dog near my children without a lot of assurances.  And yes, that goes for all breeds.  But again, a breed with exercise needs unmet, is more of a danger than not.

I'm happy to read anything you have to offer, but I don't intend to come back to debate. :)

[tinuviel_k]

Regardless of breed, if a dog moved into an apartment building without permission from the landlords, and if that dog was disturbing my family with barking and whining I would absolutely report them to the management with a complaint.

[ChristyMarie]

Originally Posted by Just1More 

Ditto.

Which?

And, I really don't care to argue.  

<snip>

I'm happy to read anything you have to offer, but I don't intend to come back to debate. :)

Originally Posted by Maedze 

I do recall reading from a reputable source that labs are the number 1 source of American bites, but it was a while back, and I am not invested enough in this debate to google, LOL.

So you both feel comfortable making factual statements as long as you don't, oh, have to backup those "facts."  Good to know.  Thanks for contributing your opinions to the topic.

Have a good night ladies.  And remember, everything you read on the internet isn't true.  ;)

[JudiAU]

I would immediately call the management if someone moved a pet into my pet-free building. The fact that it was a pit bull would have made me react even faster. Pit bulls may or may not be more vicous than other dogs but in my area they are certainly favored by people who are and those people often choose to train those dogs to be more vicious.

[Maedze]

Now, now, I really don't think that level of rudeness is necessary.  We're all having a nice conversation here.   I'm sure if you're concerned about itt, you're just as capable of using the same google as the rest of us.   
 

Originally Posted by ChristyMarie 

So you both feel comfortable making factual statements as long as you don't, oh, have to backup those "facts."  Good to know.  Thanks for contributing your opinions to the topic.

Have a good night ladies.  And remember, everything you read on the internet isn't true.  ;)

[thursday2]

A quick google search because I've heard the lab statistic before myself:

A CDC study over a 20-year period ending 1998 (so already almost 15 years old) that only looked at fatalities:

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

A highlight from the text about bias:

"First, the human DBRF reported here are like-ly underestimated; prior work suggests the approachwe used identifies only 74% of actual cases.1,2Second,to the extent that attacks by 1 breed are more news-worthy than those by other breeds, our methods mayhave resulted in differential ascertainment of fatalitiesby breed. Third, because identification of a dog’s breedmay be subjective (even experts may disagree on thebreed of a particular dog), DBRF may be differentiallyascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression.Fourth, it is not clear how to count attacks by cross-bred dogs. Ignoring these data underestimates breedinvolvement (29% of attacking dogs were crossbreddogs), whereas including them permits a single dog tobe counted more than once. "

This essentially says what a lot of anti-BSL people argue: people who think pit bulls are dangerous tend to see all dangerous dogs as pitbulls, and therefore report them as such in the case of a bite even when they don't know the breed.  Even breeders sometimes disagree on a breed.  Also, crossbred dogs are often mislabeled or counted twice.  Even the study differentiates purebred Rottweilers, purebred Labradors, and purebred "Pit Bull types," which is obviously going to end up lumping a bunch of similar structured or similar-looking dogs together regardless of actual breed.

The conclusion from the study:

Conclusions—Although fatal attacks on humansappear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-typedogs and Rottweilers), other breeds may bite andcause fatalities at higher rates. Because of difficultiesinherent in determining a dog’s breed with certainty,enforcement of breed-specific ordinances raises con-stitutional and practical issues. Fatal attacks representa small proportion of dog bite injuries to humans and,therefore, should not be the primary factor drivingpublic policy concerning dangerous dogs.

After this study, the CDC stopped tracking breeds in dog bite attacks because 1) the majority of attacks were in the home of the dog owner and not a public health issue 2) breed reporting was too unreliable to be helpful (see bias above) and 3) communities started banning breeds in a panic, which wasn't the point. 

As far as I can find regarding the labrador statistic, it's not a statistic because breeds haven't been tracked in almost 15 years, but the statement is considered a logical conclusion by anti-BSL people because almost 3/4 of dog attacks occur in the home of the owner, and labs or lab mixes are the #1 dog in America.  Therefore it stands to reason that the most populous dog is bound, by sheer numbers, to have more bites under his belt than a less populous dog.  Obviously, one would have to know the exact numbers to prove that true, and those numbers don't exist, but that's where it comes from.

So according to the CDC, as of the '80s and '90s, Rotties and pit-bull types killed more, but other dogs probably bit more - and that, by the way, isn't taking into account, in my opinion, that Rotties and pit-bull types are the two breeds owned by the Bloods and Crips, among other gangs around the country I'm sure, or that they're often used as guard dogs.  These are just fatal dog bites, no other criteria.

So if a pit bull moved in upstairs?  As long as my neighbors weren't gang-bangers I wouldn't be that worried.  I would, however, for peace in the building's sake, advise talking to the neighbor if you don't think pets are allowed before ratting them out to the landlord.  Yes, your lease provides for a no-pet apartment, but THEIR lease may have different criteria, or they may have made arrangements with the landlord since they're fostering, or they may simply appreciate the heads-up and find the dog a new home rather than get evicted.  If I had agreed to foster a dog, even if it was illegal, I'd be super pissed if somebody told on me - yes, they're probably in the wrong, but if it were me, I would make my downstairs neighbor's life a living hell from then on just out of petty spite.  Or I would have before I had kids and realized how AGONIZING it is to have them woken by a barking dog - our neighbors have 2 that NEVER. SHUT. UP.  So I sympathize, but I'd handle it internally first.

[EarthRootsStarSoul]

The problem with shelter dogs or foster dogs is that a lot of the time, you have NO IDEA about the dog's previous history in terms of socialization and training.  And pet owners trying to re-home their pet will lie, lie, lie about their dog's temperament to get someone nice to take them.  I have plenty of experience as a shelter worker.  I LOVE pitbulls and I have one, but shelter dogs are worth being cautious of, to say the least.  Someone didn't want that dog for a reason.  Maybe it's just their life changed and they no longer have time for it, but often it is because of behavior problems that are a direct result of lack of proper training as a puppy. 

I bought my pit as a weanling puppy, pick of the litter.  I chose her for her mild, quiet personality.  I raised her with my kids - she's been around kids of all ages - babies, toddlers, etc.  Every meal she had her first year of life, someone sat with their hands in her food bowl (either me or my kids).  I took her to puppy training classes, my friends houses to play with other dogs and people, and the dog park at least once a week after she had all her shots.  She is almost two years old now, and is a DREAM!  All the training and socializing has paid off in a big way.  She's 'bomb-proof' to screeching wild kids climbing on her, hugging her.  She's friendly to other dogs.  I am her 'mom' or 'security blanket' - if she is unsure of a situation, she looks to me for instructions.  She likes being told what to do.  I've never met another dog who was so eager to please its master.  Several weeks ago she got nipped pretty bad by a greyhound at the dog park.  She ran straight to me and laid down between my legs.  She just wanted to go home.  I can absolutely trust this dog.  She is the result of a great inherent personality and proper training and socialization. 

And there is no 'locking mechanism' in a pitbull's jaws. 

Look up Sharky the pitbull on YouTube.  Another example of a pit with a beautiful personality. 

But in the OP's situation, the problem is tenants having a pet when they are not allowed to.  It's worth reporting to the management. 

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by EarthRootsStarSoul 

I bought my pit as a weanling puppy, pick of the litter.  I chose her for her mild, quiet personality.  I raised her with my kids - she's been around kids of all ages - babies, toddlers, etc.  Every meal she had her first year of life, someone sat with their hands in her food bowl (either me or my kids).  I took her to puppy training classes, my friends houses to play with other dogs and people, and the dog park at least once a week after she had all her shots.  She is almost two years old now, and is a DREAM!  All the training and socializing has paid off in a big way.  She's 'bomb-proof' to screeching wild kids climbing on her, hugging her.  She's friendly to other dogs.  I am her 'mom' or 'security blanket' - if she is unsure of a situation, she looks to me for instructions.  She likes being told what to do.  I've never met another dog who was so eager to please its master.  Several weeks ago she got nipped pretty bad by a greyhound at the dog park.  She ran straight to me and laid down between my legs.  She just wanted to go home.  I can absolutely trust this dog.  She is the result of a great inherent personality and proper training and socialization. 

But still, I cannot tell what type of dog owner you are by looking at your dog. I would not want her to approach me, no matter how sweet she is, because I don't know her and I don't know you. I cannot tell her from any other pit bull just by looking at her. I know other great pit bull owners (IRL, not you) that seem to think that I should inherently trust their dogs, and that I should just trust that a dog is good natured until the dog shows they aren't. I'm not willing to take that chance though, so I do not approach dogs (of ANY breed), and I do not want dogs approaching me or my ds either.

I also don't own dogs, because while I love dogs that I know and can trust (my aunt and uncles German Shepherd being one that I absolutely adore), I don't have the time to spend with them to train them and properly socialize them. And its impossible for me to tell which dogs have been properly socialized just by looking at them, or by looking at their owners.

[EarthRootsStarSoul]

Sounds like you might have had a bad experience.  Fair enough.  There are dangerous dogs in the world.  When my son was less than 2 he was bitten by a 14 pound Pekingese that put a hole all the way through his nose.  I had that dog put to sleep.  It was a shelter dog that could not be rehabilitated.  My son and I harbor no fear of dogs.  I would understand if he did though. 

[AbbyGrant]

I think you are a very kind and patient person for not calling your landlord sooner.  

If I lived in a pet-free building and someone brought in a dog temporary or not and no matter what the breed, I would have reported them, particularly if it was disturbing me and waking up my kids.  

I guess that might make me sound heartless and uncaring and like I hate dogs, none of which is true .  But if someone is going to be fostering dogs, they need to find a building that is not pet-free.  Some people choose pet-free buildings for a reason.  

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by EarthRootsStarSoul 

Sounds like you might have had a bad experience.  Fair enough.  There are dangerous dogs in the world.  When my son was less than 2 he was bitten by a 14 pound Pekingese that put a hole all the way through his nose.  I had that dog put to sleep.  It was a shelter dog that could not be rehabilitated.  My son and I harbor no fear of dogs.  I would understand if he did though. 

I'm not afraid of dogs, I just don't want random ones allowed to approach me and my son, especially pit bulls - they have STRONG POWERFUL jaws that do seerious damage when they bite. And I don't care if their jaws don't lock - when they DO bite, they have to be killed to get them off of someone. I'm not willing to take that risk with my life or my childs. I really hope you don't just think its OK for your dog to approach random people on the street or in the park. I really don't understand why dog owners don't get that people don't always want to be approached by random animals that we know nothing about.

[Maedze]

Responsible pet owners have their dogs on leash unless it is a clearly delineated leash-free place (i.e., your own back yard, a dog park, etc.), and never allow them to 'approach' a human unless the interaction is requested by the human and controlled by the owners.  

Pitt bulls have strong jaws, but again, so do all other large breed dogs.   It is not a unique trait.   

The only serious dog bite I ever got was as a 12 or 13 year old girl when I was riding my bike past a neighbor's house and their dog (I don't recall the breed but it was a purebred small dog), ran up silently by me and sank its teeth through my jeans, skin and into the muscle of my calf as I rode by.    

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

Pitt bulls have strong jaws, but again, so do all other large breed dogs.   It is not a unique trait.   

Their jaws are actually pretty darn unique. I grew up with a Lab/Visla mix, and while he was strong, his jaw was nothing like a pit bulls. He could catch birds and not harm them, and routinely took our socks off without his teeth. A pit bull has a jaw that is large (and they aren't exactly a "large" breed - many breeds are generally bigger than pits) for their size, and they don't let go. I would say that most dogs could be called off by their owners, or removed by someone who would then be able to avoid harm - I really don't think the same is true for pit bulls.

[Maedze]

That is definitely a misconception.   

[Virginia Mom]

Putting the breed of dog aside.....(because we've all been reading heated responses)....you originally mentioned that the neighbor volunteered in a shelter, and brought the dog home---for a temporary situation.........I'd wonder what brought the dog to the shelter to begin with..............it used to be that shelters would 'screen/test dogs' especially certain breeds (again, not mentioning a specific breed) to see if they would respond in a safe manner to kids, adults, and other animals........Was this done? or did you neighbor remove the dog before it was screened? Just curious. I'm a dog owner...and respect everyone else's views........but I'm also a mom.........If the breed of the dog is a big concern to you, check with your local animal control department......some city ordinances do not allow this type of breed in certain city limits/areas. Good Luck.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Maedze 

That is definitely a misconception.   

Sources please? The only sites that say this that I can find are active pit bull advocates - obviously they are going to portray them in the best light possible. Every other site doesn't not say that.

[Imakcerka]

I've never feared a dog.  I've only feared the owners of a dog.  I have a beagle.  Who will attack everyone he doesn't know.  For over 12 years I've had to work with him to calm him down.  I got him at 2 and the damage was done.  Had I realized that this beagle was so mean I would not have brought him home.  He was left in a kennel and never socialized.  I thought he was cute and looked so sweet.  But heck no he was HORRIBLE!  Now that he's older and can't smell or see he's the sweetest dog on this earth.  But until then, had I not been vigilant he could have really hurt someone.  And whose afraid of a beagle...  

I would not care if it was a pit I would only care that they brought the dog to a place with a shared yard.  Granted she said they don't let the dog out in the yard... I would still want to make sure it didn't happen.  By the way I'm afraid of Chows... good owner or not!  

[PoppyMama]

I would be super peeved about the noisy, waking up kid stuff and I would talk to the people about that and how long the dog was staying.  I would also want to know if the dog had been temperament tested and how that went and what work were they doing with the dog to make sure it was socialized to children...in case it ever did get out.

I have two rescue pits who are five years old.  My male I've had since he was 10 months old and my female I've only had for 2 months.  The male had been in a home, was fixed early and knew basic commands.  The female was loose in San Antonio and emaciated nursing her umpteenth litter.  She knew no commands at all and it seems she may have always been a stray or maybe yard dog.  It's possible she was used as a breeding dog by someone who didn't treat her as a pet.  They are both very sweet and people oriented.  My male is used to treats and being handed and has that soft mouth common to bird dogs.  The female bit the crap out of my hand when I was handing out meat the other day.  She doesn't know how to take a treat...so I will be working in that.  The whole line that it's all about the owner doesn't fly for me.  Pits are incredibly resilient and can withstand horrible abuse without losing their love of people.  They are also breed incredibly irresponsibly now and you can have one that everything was right for and they are wired wrong and unfixable.  They are one of the friendlier (to people not other dogs) breeds but if they are people aggressive (unacceptable breed trait and the dog should be put down IMO) or have a strong prey drive and aren't socialized to children they are very dangerous.  Their jaws don't lock but they are very muscular and it may take a break stick (like a broom handle) to get them to let go.  I would NEVER adopt from a breeder and I really think there should not be any breeding for a long time.  There are way too many pits and they are being breed for looks vs temperament now a lot of the time.  A pit should not ever ever weigh 90+ pounds.  

I think all dogs should be temperament tested and landlords should only allow dogs that do well.  It's also important to note that they reach adulthood later than small breeds and can change significantly between 2 and 3.  My male never raised his leg until almost 3 and was great at the dog park until a little after 2.  I would never take him now as he may be dominate aggressive with other dogs.  They become senior sometime 8-10 and can become senile and have behavior changes.  I would give any pit the same cautiousness I have for any animal that could kill me.  Lots of dogs have the ability to kill me and I am cautious of all of them.