Grandparent rights on visitations of grandchildren.

[dabdoub]

I have taken my x-daughter in law to court to get visitations right for my grandson. This was done in 2009 and rights were given in 2/2010. My son is in prison and will get out for probably another 2years or so. She did not let me see or spend time with my grandson, so i took her to court for visitations. It was me & her mother wanting visitation rights. When i took her to court she was 19years old and pregnant.She is hooked up with this young insecure boyfriend that controls her life. She is young 23 years old and has already 3 other children from this guy, she is not married, just living together at his mothers home. They are always getting a home but for 3 years have lived with his mother. We had a court trial because she did not want us to have visitation rights. The judge ordered visitation rights 4 times a year. Every three months for a weekend, and her mother the same. we have been doing this and it is not working. First the time inbetween visits is too long and when we do get visits they are too short,for the weekend. Thats not the worst of it. Whats worse is when its time for him to go, he does not want to go home, and i feel like Im giving him to the wolves. He is 6years old and loves his grandparents. He detests the boyfriend. Anything we do or confront them with is always a fight and my grandchild pays for it. I have tried talking to them and nothing works, the boyfriend is so afraid of letting us have him its distrubing. She is so controlled and i assume afraid of him does nothing. I've come to an end and thinking of going back to court and trying to get more time. This weekend i had him and it was the last straw. His great grandmother gave him a box of bugs for Christmas because we are not allowed to have him for holidays, breaks, vacations etc. except above. Anyway my husband was trying to be respectful and told him his great grandmother had given him this box of bugs and he had not had time to play with him and if he could take them home. The boyfriend starts saying no, that what we get him stays at our house and what they get him is at there house. This starts an argument back and forth and my poor grandson in the middle again does not get to take his box of bugs home to play with. How childish is this. How threatened does he feel that this is a major event, for him to take home a present. Everything we buy and give him is 3 months away for my poor grandson. I wish we could just all get along. if there is anyone who has been through this and can help on what to do, please share. Also anyone who has gone to court and has an angel on how to get visitations on a more regular basis etc. i hope a little history and information on her circumstances can help shed a little light on my fraustrations and limited rights. Any one who had won a case on grandparent right that had better luck on visitation then me. Frustrated with no Direction.

[Polliwog]

That actually sounds like a lot of time. My kids don't see their birth parents nearly that much nor do they see their grandparents (mom/stepfather and dad/stepmother) even close to that. I understand that you would like more time with your grandson but as a parent,that's a lot of time to be away from my children. I'd just focus on the time that you do have with him.

[CrazyCatLady]

If you think the kids are in actual danger or in an abusive living environment, then you need to contact CPS or fight for guardianship of them.  Otherwise it sounds like you have it pretty good to me.  And you and the other grandmother are getting way more time than I would be comfortable with as a mother.  I personally think you need to enjoy the time you are getting and back off otherwise.  They are not your children and their mother deserves the right to make decisions about who they see and when (again, unless you think there is a darn good reason why she shouldn't have that right.  And you not being happy, is not a good reason).

[rubidoux]

I feel terrible for you because you sound so sad and heartbroken, but I think the previous posters are right.  I would love for my children's g'parents to all be around more and be a bigger part of their lives, but we live on opposite coasts.  My husbands parents have probably averaged twice a year for a weekend each time (so we're all together for 2 to 3 days) and my mother for about a week once a year and sometimes less.    If we lived close together we'd see them more, but I would never leave them for four weekends a year (certainly not eight spread between the g'parents).  I doubt I'd let them ever spend a whole weekend away.

Do you have a good relationship with your DIL's mother?  Maybe one way to feel like you've got more open contact with you grandson would be for the two of you to agree to share your time a bit.  Like, maybe every weekend that one of you has him, you'll have the other set of grandparents over for a meal.  That way you'd be seeing him every six weeks.  

Also, do you know what your son's planning in terms of custody and what the odds of him getting some rights would be?  Maybe your money would be better spent putting it into a lawyer for him, if you believe that your g'son is in a bad situation with his mother and her boyfriend.  Of course, if you're afraid that there's actual abuse going on, that would be different.  

In general, I have to say that I'm not really supportive of grandparent's "rights" to visitation with their grandchildren.  The parents are the ones who should be making all of the decisions regarding their children's welfare.  In this case, DIL apparently didn't want her own mother to have time with her children.  She may have had very good reason for that.  I'm assuming that, if her mother raised her, she would have very good reason to know what her mother would be like with her children and it may have been that she had very good reason to sever that relationship.  Why would a court be in a better position to make those decisions than she is? Could it be that some of the tension between you all, that you are assuming comes from the new boyfriend is more about the court-ordered arrangement?  It does kind of make you guys adversaries.   

[Mummoth]

I'm on the opposite side of this, my XH's parents took me to court for access to my kids.

In our case, they hadn't seen the kids in over a year when they decided to send the kids a card in in the mail, saying they'd be picking them up at 10AM on Easter Sunday and keeping them until dusk... not a word to me, asking if it's okay. I suggested that the first few visits be at a park near my house because DD had separation anxiety and didn't know them well... but they kept trying to bypass me and make plans directly with the kids, and when I insisted that they deal with me, they would still try and take the kids instead of agreeing to meet with them. They started trying to manipulate the kids into wanting to go with them, eg; they gave the kids each a bike at the beginning of a visit as though they were  gifts and then took them back away at the end and said "We're going to keep them at our place, you can come and ride them there." It was put right in the court order that anything they give the kids during visits belongs to the kids and they can take it with them.

By the time I knew DD would be comfortable going on a visit with them alone, they had ben so disrespectful of my wishes that I was afraid they wouldn't bring the kids back when they said they would, or that they'd allow XH to see them at a visit. The latter could be an issue with your family... if there is some reason why your DIL wouldn't want him around the kids, she could be afraid of letting you have the kids more because in the future it might mean access for him. If there's any chance that she is concerned for the kids safety or well-being around their dad, you need to make sure you respect that. My DD used to come home from a visit with them and tell me "Daddy is nice now." in an accusatory way... I never told him he wasn't! But that would make her want to e-mail him, which I'd help her do... and then he didn't answer her. It hurt her to build up false hope only to have it squashed time and again. That didn't make it into a court order but they got a stern warning from the judge not to try and influence the kids with regard to their father. 

Is there a reason why the visits are 3 months apart? Do you live far away from them? When we went to court, I suggested once a month for 6 hours for visits and the judge agreed that was reasonable and made a consent order. I've let the grandparents know they can take the kids out for supper/for a few hours during the week once in a while but they've never done it. If you do go back to court to see the kids more often, you might need to ask for shorter visits, at least some of the time... every month, alternating between a day/8ish hour visit and an overnight, maybe? It's going to be less than what you want... I think that's something you have in common with the majority of grandparents, whether there;s reason to bring court into it or not!

One thing you need to try and understand is, your grandson probably has other family members, gets invited to his friends houses, maybe they go to church or have swimming lessons or some other extra curricular on weekends, and they also need to do things as a family, and have down-time... weekend time is precious and can get gobbled up so fast! With my kids it started out that they were seeing their grandparents twice a month for 4 hours, and they missed out on seeing my family a lot of the time. Time with grandparents is important, but so are all those other things... it's hard to find the right balance.

Also, what about phone access? Originally we had it set up that the kids call them every Wednesday at 4PM, but they complained that sometimes the call was late, and that sometimes there was too much background noise... we could do no right... it wasn't okay to wait until we were home and it was quiet, and it wasn't okay to call on time but when we were still out and it might be a little noisy where we were.... so it got changed to the kids having 'unfettered access' (they decide when/if they want to call, whenever)

What do you think would happen if you mailed a small gift to him on holidays? Then something like his box of bugs would be at his house for him to play with and he'd know you were thinking of him on the holidays. It sounds like this probably wouldn't work but if they get returned to sender, you'd have proof of their pettiness in that area. That would look like you weren't respecting their wishes, though. Have they ever put in writing that you can't give your grandson gifts?

Try to think of it less as your rights and more as your grandson's rights... like, he has the right to access to you not the other way around. That way it's easier to be sure you're acting in his best interest... if you put your rights before him, you could wind up being a jerk. Here's some examples:

I had agreed a few weeks in advance that they could see the kids on a Sunday. A week before the visit, DS got invited to a birthday party for that day and was excited to go. I emailed to reschedule and their response was about their rights. I answered back saying that I'm sure they don't expect their grandson to sacrifice his social life for them, and they backed down. I don't make plans for the kids with them until it's a week or less away now (oh yeah, being flexible is good!)

I had to cancel a visit the night before it was supposed to happen because DD got a concussion. This was the ONLY time I've canceled a visit in 4 years. ExMIL's response was "We have hospitals out here" I had to point out that DD wouldn't be herself after being woken up every two hours all night and even though they're capable of watching out for signs that she needs to go back to hospital, kids want their mom/the comforts of home when they're seriously injured or sick. It made it so they didn't see the kids that month, but they had 2 visits the following month.

Both times, they were thinking about their rights and not what their grandchildren might be thinking or feeling. the second time, I was technically breaking our order... but what judge would seriously take issue with what I did?

Is the other grandma having these kind of problems with them? If the mother takes issue with everyone who tries to have a relationship with her kid, that doesn't look good on her. I was asked in court if I kept my kids from any of their other relatives and I think it helped show that they were the ones who weren't willing to cooperate.

 I hoe there's something in this word brick that you find helpful!

[serenbat]

we have sort of the same situation (minus the legal part) - our DS only sees my DH's mother about 4 times a year - partly it because of religion (on their part) and a mix of how my DH was raised 

I can certainly see this type of thing playing into how willing the OP's DIL could be towards her. Because the father is in jail, she may very well not want that influence and the issues that raises around the child at this point. Some people didn't do a good job raising their own children but think they deserve the right to aid in raising their grandchildren - I am one that does not feel they deserve the chance to screw up two generations.

The boyfriend starts saying no, that what we get him stays at our house and what they get him is at there house. 

What also stood out to me in the OP's post was that the DIL has other children-I think often grandparents mistake their "rights" and over look greatly the effects of pushing them has on the others in the family- about a sending a gift or giving - don't forget there are others children and treat them as if they are all your grandchildren - I'm sure not doing so is adding to the issues in this case. IF anything is being done (as far as a gift)- go out of your way and get for ALL here- make an effort and understand how this came across and why the boyfriend was upset- I certainly understand this and would be very up set as well.

[Polliwog]

What also stood out to me in the OP's post was that the DIL has other children-I think often grandparents mistake their "rights" and over look greatly the effects of pushing them has on the others in the family- about a sending a gift or giving - don't forget there are others children and treat them as if they are all your grandchildren - I'm sure not doing so is adding to the issues in this case. IF anything is being done (as far as a gift)- go out of your way and get for ALL here- make an effort and understand how this came across and why the boyfriend was upset- I certainly understand this and would be very up set as well.

This is a really good point. We have to deal with this when my kids have visits with their birth parents. DS's birth mother and grandmother have fully accepted DD as part of their extended family. If it's a gift-giving occasion, DD is no different than any of the other kids. We're still figuring out the relationshop we're going to have with DD's birth father. When we had our first visit back in November, he gave DD a two-wheeler (with training wheels.) The rule in our house is that when you are able to ride a two-wheeler independently (we don't use training wheels) you will get one. DD was given her new bike SEVEN DAYS after DS learned to ride a two-wheeler. That was quite frustrating for everyone. DS was mad because he didn't think that DD was following the "rules" since she had never even tried a big two-wheeler with pedals and I was frustrated that I didn't know that there was going to be a BIG gift given.
 

[serenbat]

ALSO - you (OP) should really go out of your comfort zone even more- on Mother's Day - send her flowers and at the holidays (this doesn't come across as a wealthy family) get a gift card for a local grocery store and give it to the boyfriend here - IF you really care about the child - show the MOTHER respect- she had the child not you

set a bigger example of what a parent (in your case grandparent) should be- this is a "whole family" (like it or not) and treat them with respect- start to show it

I do not favor grandparents right (for the reason mentioned prior) and I think "GRAND"-parents tend to thing grandly of themselves often and forget they are NOT the reason for the grandchildren, it's their child that had the sex- the grandchild is just the byproduct and you should not expect that you should get everything you want and disregard the parents rights - they should be first (unless there clearly is a reason to call CPS)- back off- you had your right to parent now respect others right to parent

[serenbat]

If it's a gift-giving occasion, DD is no different than any of the other kids. 

exactly! 

[tooraloora]

Wow. I can't imagine my 7 year old being away from me so often, especially not for entire weekends at a time with people I don't trust. That must be really tough for the mother, especially knowing that as a parent, she doesn't even have the right to say who her child can visit, when, or for how long. I can't imagine adding more demands on top of all that will make any of this better. Maybe it's time to accept that the mother is this child's parent (not you) and let her do her job. You had your chance to raise a child. Now it's her turn. I bet things would calm down a good bit if you backed off, stopped thinking so much about your own desires, and started thinking more about how this whole mess is affecting the other people involved (yes, mama included). I imagine it would take a lot of stress off everyone if the arguing stopped. I know, I know, it's all them, but think about it. When you guys asked about sending that gift home, and you were told no, it could have been dropped right then and there. If you feel so terrible about your grandson being stuck in the middle of arguments, stop arguing. It takes two. Trying to push them into doing things your way is just going to make things worse. Every time you argue with them about the decisions they are making as parents, you are showing them just how little you respect them. How would that make anything better for anyone?

[queenjane]

We do not have "Grandparents Rights" in my state. I think there is too much potential for abuse.

If you feel like your grandson is being abused or neglected, act on that by notifying the authorities.

I cannot image being a mom who was sued for visitation by my ex's mother (my ex who is now in PRISON?!) and feeling ok with it. Of course its not going to go well. I understand missing your grandchild and wanting a relationship.

[rubidoux]

I keep thinking about this thread...  I don't know if it's more about my own kids and how horrified I'd be to have a judge give visitation when I was against it or if it's the way I felt about my own grandparents (FEAR!) that makes it bother me.  My grandparents were horrible.  My grandfather actually kidnapped me once.  I was 7 and my mother had sent me down to Memphis to visit him (she was in upstate NY).  I was there for weeks and counting down the days, missing my mother like crazy and not enjoying my g'father or his family.  (Every picture that was taken of me that summer was either in the bath or with a towel wrapped around me.  He's a little OCD and requires three baths a day.  Gah!)  And then the day he was supposed to send me back he sat me down and told me I was staying because my mother was turning me into a communist.  His evidence was that when my uncle told me that he had fought in Viet Nam, I said, apparently horrified, "you mean you killed people?"  (I think that might be in the top two or three things I feel most guilty about in my life.  I really loved my uncle and hate that it was hurtful.)  And I wanted to play with the black kids who lived next door, which is totally unacceptable in his world.  Of course my mother (26 year old single mom barely able to cover the bills at that point) took off time from work and drove down to get me.  But omg, if there had been g'parents' rights then I'm sure he would've gotten custody.  

Anyway, OP, if you're still reading...  I do hope that you're able to have a nice relationship with your g'son and his mother.  And I guess the best outcome I can see here is that your son gets out of prison and really manages to be an involved committed father.  Then he can choose to have you spending time with your g'son.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I do not favor grandparents right (for the reason mentioned prior) and I think "GRAND"-parents tend to thing grandly of themselves often and forget they are NOT the reason for the grandchildren, it's their child that had the sex- the grandchild is just the byproduct and you should not expect that you should get everything you want and disregard the parents rights - they should be first (unless there clearly is a reason to call CPS)- back off- you had your right to parent now respect others right to parent

I agree. Unless you think your grandchild is being abused in some way.. back off.

[Melaniee]

Everyone else had such good advice, I just wanted to send that perhaps asking for a shorter evening 'meal out' type of visit in-between seems fair. Three months between seeing you is a lot and I understand how much it must pain you; but everyone is right that is a lot for him to be away from his mother at such a young age, I think you got a good deal. My children do not stay the night away from us at their grandparents, and we have a good relationship.   So an occasional, scheduled, evening out seems nice. And ITA, remembering the other kids seems like a nice gesture. Perhaps you give them all something small next time instead of one bigger thing to him that isn't allowed to come home.  Just tread lightly so it doesn't seem like 'showing off,' (not that I would think that, but if boyfriend is really poor he sounds like the type that might come off with stuff like that).  I can only imagine how you must feel about her, for her and her boyfriend. But you get more bees with honey than vinegar.

[OkiMom]

Grandparents "rights" very from state to state. Where I use to live (Florida) my in-laws looked into it and found they had to have an established caretaker relationship with the child AND the parent who was not their child (in this case me) would have to be actively keeping the child away from them in order for the courts to entertain "visitation rights" for the grandparents. So in their situation they could apply for grandparents "rights" for their oldest granddaughter since they practically raised her until she was 6 and have documented proof of that and of the fact the father tries to keep the girl away from them. However, they couldn't apply for visitation of my children since they have never had a caretaker role for more than a couple of hours and never all 3 at the same time. So, they don't fulfill that requirement of the law and thus can't apply for visitation even if I told them they could never see the children again (I wouldn't but I could if I so desired).

In California, where my father lives, grandparent visitation will only be granted when its considered in the emotional best for the children. So pretty much they have to have an established relationship with the grandparent and the judge has to rule that it would hurt the child not to see that grandparent. Thus, my father (who has only seen my oldest 3 times, my middle once and my youngest never) could not apply since there is no emotional attachment to him on my children's part.

Honestly Im not a supporter of grandparents rights in 99% of the situations. I would get downright peeved if my in-laws or father tried to take me to court and "force" me to let them see my children.

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I do not favor grandparents right (for the reason mentioned prior) and I think "GRAND"-parents tend to thing grandly of themselves often and forget they are NOT the reason for the grandchildren, it's their child that had the sex- the grandchild is just the byproduct and you should not expect that you should get everything you want and disregard the parents rights - they should be first (unless there clearly is a reason to call CPS)- back off- you had your right to parent now respect others right to parent

ITA.
And as someone who has an abusive mother who has threatened to take me to court to get visitation of my child, I really detest the idea that someone could mandate that I allow my children to see someone I dont want them to see. I have no proof that she is abusive, and she can make herself look really good.

Personally, Im shocked that the OP gets that much visitation.

[meemee]

this thread is so sad for me. and my circumstances.

i am not trying to offer any advice here - but its just a comment on life. 

i have tried to ignore this thread but it always is there at the back of my mind. 

one of the comments here really stood out for me.  I am one that does not feel they deserve the chance to screw up two generations

this is such an unfair comment without knowing any details. if my dd goes to prison i screwed up? is that the immediate conclusion.

a weekend every 3 months is 'raising' a gchild?

this brings up so much for me mainly because i have not seen anyone reply to the 'other side' of rights. gparents rights.

i guess we are a result of our own experience.

my dd has awesome gparents. and i made it a point that she continued to see them even though her dad and i split up. it would be such a huge loss for my dd if i didnt.

it pains me that we have come to this in society that grandparents rights on this has become a legal issue.

in my family i feel gparents are part of our family. heck even my very close friends. my dd shares a relationship with them. she needs them as much as they need her. not just gparents but friends too. but i'll keep it to gparents.

i can understand where the pp come from. i am fortunate to have a close knit family. unfortunately dd's paternal gparent and stepgrandparents have passed. she only has two now - both far away so she rarely sees them. but she misses them so. if they are sick she is so upset.

so for me its so hard to imagine that a splitting up of parents involves friends and family too.

i have a couple of friends who are actually going through this very thing (i think a mom posted about this very thing somewhere here where she was the gparent). i see messed up moms refusing to let 'good' gparents have any visitation.

what matters is the child. what matters is the relationship between the gparent and the child. one of my step inlaws wasnt very kind to me but i never doubted her love for my dd and i didnt allow what came up between us affect that relationship.

my whole point of this post is not telling others what to do or feel.

its just an expression of sadness of the society that we have become. mainly coz i cant imagine life without gparents - for me or my dd.  

[serenbat]

one of the comments here really stood out for me.  I am one that does not feel they deserve the chance to screw up two generations

I'm sorry but I think you misinterpreted my point entirely- what I was referring to was my DH and the things that he has gone through as a result of how he was parented and HOW I would not like to see his mother repeat that on our child (he also feels the same way)- I do know substantial harm can come from bad parenting

I have seen grandparents do bad parenting of grandchildren----the word is "parenting" that is far different from having a "grandparent relationship" with a child

If a parent has cause their child harm they could very easily do so to a g-child and having unsupervised visit -IMO would not be good-plain and simple

I simply (in the OP's case) feel that there is really NO relationship between her and the mother and there is no good constructive relationship to have with a grandchild when you can not even have a relationship with the parent that bore the child and who the child is partly made of- if you don't like one of the parents- how do you like the child who is made up of this person? that is the part that gets me--you speak so ill of the parent (as the OP did) but love the g-child and can't see the child is part of that parent?

to me that is sooooooooo unhealthy and that does not foster a healthy relationship with the child

if you screw up the parent what entitles you to do it again?

what really gets me is the young age and unsupervised weekend visits! at that age they should just be having "social visits" with the WHOLE family, not taking the child away -IMO and NO over nights at all

and the OP shows no respect for the mother

again-one of the comments here really stood out for me.  I am one that does not feel they deserve the chance to screw up two generations

I think we are talking two different things here

ETA - and yes, there are time that when you see how a person was parented (in the case of being in jail) and the grandparents parent the grandchild, they end up also in jail, does it happen ALL the time? -no, but there are times it does---from personal experience I have seen bad grand-parenting done - this has been full time grand-parenting and it's a shame the grandchild experiences the same as the parent did-  it's not right

having a "healthy" grandparent relationship is good if you can have it- not always is this the case- 

the OP's words really stuck out to me how she spoke about the child's mother 

Edited by serenbat - 2/11/12 at 5:44pm

[rubidoux]

meemee,  

I don't understand why you're taking this personally.  It sounds to me like your DD's g'parents are good to her and for her.  They are not the sort of g'parents we are all talking about.

You know, anyone can become a g'parent and not all g'parents are warm and fuzzy.  My own were pretty difficult and if I had been in my mother's shoes there is no way I would have allowed my child to spend time alone with either of them.  When I was 15, I stopped talking to my g'mother for ten years because she threatened to come "bash my head in" because she thought I wasn't being well behaved.  I was pretty sure she wasn't going to actually jump on a plane and come bash my head in, but she was pretty crazy and pretty violent and I thought it was possible.  My mother really should not have allowed her or my crazy g'father (the one who had briefly kidnapped me a few years earlier) to have so much access to me.  

My g'mother died before my oldest was born, but my g'father is still living.  There is a piece of me that wishes my kids could know him.  I think it's more about knowing our history and where they came from than anything else, though.  I don't wish that they had a relationship with him and I am happy that I'm in a position to protect them from how harsh he can be.  I clearly remember one time at his house, when I was 5-ish, that he was horrified that his g'daughter would be afraid of dogs, so he locked me in the back yard for like an hour with his (at the time, to me) big scary dog.  I would *never* allow my kids to be alone with him.  They have never met him and they never will.

So yes, it would be terribly sad if there were wonderful loving g'parents not allowed to see their g'children, but the g'parents are not always wonderful and loving and the people who should be making decisions about it are the parents.

eta:  I just wanted to say that I agree with serenbat's position that the g'parents who screwed up their own children should not necessarily have a chance to do the same to the g'children.  And if the parent was abused in some way by the g'parent, isn't it the parent's responsibility to make sure that their child is not also allowed to be similarly abused?  And there is nobody in a better position to know how that g'parent is likely to treat children in their charge than the child they raised.  

This is not about being mean to g'parents.  It's about making good decisions for our own children.

[meemee]

rubidoux - why am i taking this personally. 

because all my life i tend to take things personally. or at least apply it personally. in a philosphical sense. to paraphrase in short.

what was it - a hundred or two hundred years ago gparents were included as the immediate family. in some cultures they are actually called mom and dad too. 

what pains me is that this is what we have come to today? relations were hard even then but we found ways of working it out or moving away. there was more of a community feel which i feel isnt there any more. growing up i knew my mom and gma didnt get along (not super bad as in your case serenbeth) but they still tried. 

serenbat - yes i do understand where you are coming from and yes i totally agree with the tone of the person writing towards her DIL, but you outright accused her of not being a good parent. and yes of course there are enough messed up families that lead to messed up kids. but you cant make that accusation to a first time visitor without knowing any history - nothing. i absolutely agree with you that this is a sad, sad situation. how can one have a meaningful relationship with the gkids if that is her attitude towards her DIL. plus in situations like this with so much hurt feelings flying around i like to give the benefit of the doubt. 

however its not just this issue - but many, many issues here that i read about. that today relationships can be so bad.