Dyslexia?

[JavaFinch]

My son is being evaluated by neuropediatric psych in a couple weeks.  I'm pretty nervous, mainly because I have this fear that they're going to try to pin especially his social issues on homeschooling.  I know it's NOT that because he's been the way he is his entire life and he sticks out as 'different' even within our homeschool group, and THEY'RE all homeschooled, too. 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure he does have some sort of ADD but wasn't really thinking dyslexia was in play but last night somehow I stumbled upon the "Bright Solutions for Dyslexia" site and my son displays or at least in the past has done many of the things.  For example, he didn't say a single word until he was 2.5 but was saying about 100 words by age 3 and took off from there.  He mixed up his left and right for YEARS.  I'm not sure he even has it totally down now (he has to think about it more than it being totally auto - but even if this isn't true (I tried to ask him but of course he denied that he was confused about it) I know for sure he was still confusing it by 9, 10, maybe even 11 (he's 12 now).  He reversed his b's and d's for YEARS - in fact, just yesterday he wrote a P instead of a 9, and then when I told him to fix it, right after that he wrote a 9 for a P!  But while he used to do this a LOT (up until age 8-9 he was still doing it very regularly) he doesn't do it very often anymore, but still once in a while he'll do it.  When he reads he seems like he is 'skimming' is how I've always described it.  I thought it was from him trying too hard to get info (especially on his computer) when his reading wasn't the best, so he would just search for the context/answer instead of thoroughly reading.  He still ties his shoes with 2 loops knotting them together - but then again, when I try to show him another way he says he doesn't want to learn, so maybe he really could do it now.  Reading music has been really hard for him - he's been in piano for 3 years and he's made progress, of course, but it's slow and my husband pretty much holds his hand through all his practices.  His reading still isn't what I'd really call 'fluent' and his writing is sloppy and I can't tell you how many times, over and over, I've told him "Capitalize the first word, period at the end" and he just keeps not doing it.  Also another issue is he won't capitalize I (as in me) ... he'll write i.  I've told him SOOOO many times it needs to be capitalized.  And leaving spaces between words, writing on the line, etc.  He just won't seem to correct it (or can't/has trouble?  I don't know)

The thing that does NOT fit is I feel DS's memory is just fine.  In fact, that's pretty much HOW he's done so well in piano.  He has his own way that we don't even really understand.  Learning his multiplication tables was not hard for him, but ordering numbers from smallest to largest WAS (still is a bit) hard for him.  The lecture I read seemed to talk a lot about memory being an issue, and I'm not seeing that - I'm seeing that as one of his strengths.

I guess I'll find out what they think in a few weeks, but I was just curious if anyone has a child with dylexia and what your experience has been with some of their symptoms that really stuck out and also if doing things like memorizing multiplication tables was hard?

Thanks!

[AAK]

If the dr is any good, homeschooling won't be an issue.  As far as dyslexia goes, there are a LOT of people with it and while many have memory issues, not all of them do.  My dd is dyslexic and her memory tests low, but most people wouldn't think of her as having memory issues.  She also has exceptional memory in certain areas-- she can go to a house 1 time, come back a year later and notice that the owner changed the knobs on the cabinets.  (Really happened, and even better--same kid who noticed the knobs didn't notice that they were painted a different color).  

My best resource has been the yahoo group for dyslexia:  http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/dyslexiasupport2/

Many are parents of 2E kids (twice exceptional -- aspergers with dyslexia as an example).  Many have children who struggle with ADD, or ADHD, various spectrum issues, all severities of dyslexia, Irlen's syndrome, vision issues, etc.  So, you have lots of people to get insight from.  A lot of kids with dyslexia also have ADD, but it doesn't mean that they come as a package.

What prompted you to go for testing?  

Amy

[JavaFinch]

Thanks for the info.

My son has to go each year for MRI and checkup with a neurosurgeon because he has a shunt due to hydrocephalus.  I have 'known' or believed he has some 'issues' that surely would get him at least a diagnosis of ADD but basically since I'm not interested in drugs, I don't think, I have just resisted going.  We went through 6 years of 'early intervention' and I really (no offense to anyone) didn't find it very helpful at all and was glad to be done with them when they kicked us out due to homeschooling (he was taking speech therapy at the school).  After that I just wanted to be free from what they felt he 'should' be doing (since I saw no evidence of their interventions being much, if any, help anyway) and just give him time to develop on his own.  At that point he didn't seem *that* different from his peers.  But now that his peers are getting older and seem to be maturing and he's seeming to not really be, and since his doctor asked if he'd ever been evaluated and said he wanted him to do it, I figured now is time to do it.

[MissBright]

Thank you for the reference to the yahoo group. Even with all my experience I sometimes need a place to talk about a child I'm teaching. Bless you! :)

[SundayCrepes]

One of the moms in our HS group has dyslexia. So does her eldest daughter. Mom worked with daughter to get her to grade level in reading. She chose to homeschool her because she knew how destructive her own schooling experience was. (She was told she was stupid. She's not stupid, she's dyslexic.)

Our daughter has a speech delay. I've wondered if she will be dyslexic. Ain't no way I'm putting her in school. I will do much better by her than the school district would.

Don't know if that helps you, but thought I'd share.

[SundayCrepes]

BTW, I just ordered this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0983151008/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details

According to the table of contents there is info on dyslexia and homeschooling. Haven't read it yet so I don't know what it says.

[PGTlatte]

Hi,

Our son has not been evaluated for dyslexia, but reading and writing has been a terrific struggle; he had major visual processing problems that have been successfully treated through vision therapy with a COVD optometrist, and he has a lot of the memory issues that seem to be common with dyslexia.  He does have a good memory for certain things, like details of things we did or places we went.  But his sequential memory is very low which causes him great difficulty with spelling and math facts, and he has some very obvious signs of poor working memory (he almost forgot his pants today - really).  I know for a fact that without the vision therapy, he still would not be reading and writing, and would absolutely test as dyslexic.  With vision therapy and lots and lots and lots of work with beginning level reading materials and programs, he is almost caught up in reading.  He is still quite behind in writing and we work hard in that area.  He does very well with the concepts and mechanics of math, but those darn facts are a big problem for him.  I am about to start a remedial program with him just to learn the facts, so he can move past this roadblock.  My experience with this is that it takes a lot of patience and a lot of repetition for whatever parts of reading and math are hard for the child, that may seem to go on forever with little progress, and some may need therapy for visual or auditory processing.  You just keep on keeping on with the repetition and the patience and seek out the necessary therapy.  What I would not do is read the books or follow the "experts" about learning to "cope" with dyslexia as a lifetime disability since it "can't be cured".   I decided any therapy that might work is worth a try.  I am really glad that is the approach we chose.  We will continue on this path.

[JavaFinch]

I read about this vision therapy a while back ... maybe I should have investigated that.  Are problems in this area more common with kids who've had eye surgery?  My son had surgery at about 18 months for pretty severe crossing.  The one surgery was all he's needed and his eyes are great now, but he doesn't see 3D very well and his depth perception isn't great.  When he was little, especially, he would tap his foot ahead of him if a wide, painted line was on a parking lot because he thought it might be a step.  He also still takes stairs pretty slow.  His opthalmologist has never brought up vision therapy.

[PGTlatte]

Originally Posted by JavaFinch 

I read about this vision therapy a while back ... maybe I should have investigated that.  Are problems in this area more common with kids who've had eye surgery?  My son had surgery at about 18 months for pretty severe crossing.  The one surgery was all he's needed and his eyes are great now, but he doesn't see 3D very well and his depth perception isn't great.  When he was little, especially, he would tap his foot ahead of him if a wide, painted line was on a parking lot because he thought it might be a step.  He also still takes stairs pretty slow.  His opthalmologist has never brought up vision therapy.

Only developmental optometrists usually know anything about it.  There are optometrists and ophthalmologists who will say it "isn't real" and "doesn't work".  This is because they are ignorant about it.  It is not "do these exercises and throw away your glasses !"   It is physical therapy for the physical components of the eyes, and training for the entire visual system including the eyes and brain and how visual information is processed.  It is to get two eyes working together to make one picture, to do everything eyes are supposed to do without getting fatigued, and to correctly process visual information.  It is not a replacement for a corrective lens.  The best place to look for information about it is here:

http://www.covd.org/Home/AboutVisionLearning/tabid/102/Default.aspx

It is also not a cure-all.  It is for very specific problems of the visual system.  Some people who have symptoms of dyslexia may need therapy for auditory processing or speech language therapy, or other kinds of occupational therapies.  Dyslexia can be a catchall for a grouping of processing issues that need to be addressed separately.  VT won't fix other problems.  But I think anyone who is staring down a possible dyslexia diagnosis should get the visual system checked out and see if there are problems there.  Most of the programs for dyslexia focus on intensive phonics training.  All the phonics in the world would not have helped our son to read because he could not correctly see and process the visual information.

[tankgirl73]

The issues described about handwriting sound a lot like my son.  He *can* write correctly when he decides he wants to.  But usually, he doesn't really care, and when he's on auto-pilot, he doesn't capitalize anything, punctuation can be random, it's astonishingly messy, etc.  But when tested on it, he does know and understand the rules.  

He never had any reading problems, however, and is not dyslexic.  I would throw out the idea that maybe your son is dysgraphic -- writing disability.  I do think my son is mildly dysgraphic.  It is possible to be both dyslexic and dysgraphic, too.

My son also is diagnosed ADHD and Asperger's.  In our case, it was the Asperger's that was the 'ding ding eureka' surprise when we looked into it.  It explains the ways in which he is "different" so perfectly.  If your psychologist is any good they should be looking for all kinds of things like that as well, especially if your son has "social issues" - that's not related to dyslexia and not necessarily associated with ADHD either.  Anyway, my son was 12 when we finally got an official diagnosis.  We had wanted to avoid drugs, tried lots of behavioral and dietary stuff, but he was in bad shape... not just 'fidgety and with some learning differences', he was really quite unable to function.  In our case, anyway, medication has made a world of difference when nothing else did.

Anyway, the main thing I wanted to address was this:  

Quote:

My son is being evaluated by neuropediatric psych in a couple weeks.  I'm pretty nervous, mainly because I have this fear that they're going to try to pin especially his social issues on homeschooling.

I was nervous about that too.  But in fact, the reverse turned out to be true.  She said "that's wonderful, that's really the best thing you could be doing for him."  Kids with ADHD and Asperger's in school have to use so much of their mental energy in order to try to stay focused, and dealing with the complexities of social interactions, that there's very little energy left for learning.  It's really, really, really stressful on them, and that much stress on a daily basis is not conducive to learning, nor to emotional development.  

My son is academically on par... lags in some areas, well ahead in others... but his emotional development is 'behind'.  I noticed when he was 7, I think, when looking at checklists of what childrens' behavior is like at different ages, that he matched up perfectly with a five-year-old, not a 7-year-old.  And year to year, this was consistent -- he behaves about 2 years 'younger' than his physical age.  It's especially fun right now that he's 13, hitting physical adolescence, interested in girls, becoming a teen in so many ways, but still acts like an 11-year-old in most social ways.  It's very awkward trying to interact with his 13 and 14yo friends and peers that way.  

Anyway, the psychologist agreed that school would have been REALLY hard on him and made all the interventions and helps we can give for him, a whole lot more difficult.  With homeschooling we can easily implement any methodology, curriculum, alternative expression (ie narration instead of writing an essay), without needing an IEP or an educational assistant in the classroom or taking him out of the regular class for one period each day for his 'enrichment', etc etc.  :)  

[AussieMom]

I'm the mom of a 14 year old Dyslexic boy - we uncovered his learning difference in Kindergarten, but looking back I noticed it in pre-school.  In fact I say the day he was born I knew he was different - he looked at me in the eyes and held his head up - what newborn does that? Anyway - I've looked at Dyslexia from outside in and inside out and come to the conclusion no two dyslexics are alike - just like any other 'disease' they all have their own symptoms.  So for my son we found he had a gap between reading and speech - pretty hard to avoid not being noticed in a class of 25 or 30.  His comprehension is high, his knowledge of sentence structure is out of the box but get him to read out loud ... very bad, get him to spell not even spell check can help!  Phonics ? forget it

Thankfully we had a fantastic tutor - who herself is dyslexic and has the ability to think outside the box and has played around with many things - we have had the special 'colored' glasses, and PACE tutoring - which I feel has made a huge difference.  I wish there was a fast and easy solution for each of these children, but each child is so different, unfortunately each child and parents journey is different.  Around third grade at our second IEP we were told about accommodations he can have and one recommendation was to have books in Audio format.  This was when I learnt about Learning Ally and books in Audio format.  You may know Learning Ally as RFBD - recording for the blind and Dyslexic.  Now through our involvement with this organization I can say he is far more independent, no more having to read books to him, no more tears because he couldn't cope with the read out loud.  Prior to being a member of Learning Ally I found he was behind in his emotions - let's face it a third grader reading 1st grade books - must have been terrible for his self esteem.  

Having him tested was a wonderful thing - not only did we find out what was going on, we discovered 'tools' like Learning Ally, Dragon etc that will help him in his life going forward but I feel we both learnt that he is what he is and he is different from other kids.  We discovered where he excels and where we have to put in 'tools' or 'support'.  Will it go away? No but I notice that he is learning how to cope with it and is improving in some areas.  Just recently on the SATs he tested at 99% for grammar - wow in 1st grade he felt so bad about himself.  I think the books in audio have allowed him to hear a book and perhaps more than just that but also understand sentence structure.  

Be open to your options consider that for each child each path is different.  I hope this helps and eases your journey 

[Assistive]

Originally Posted by JavaFinch 

My son is being evaluated by neuropediatric psych in a couple weeks.  I'm pretty nervous, mainly because I have this fear that they're going to try to pin especially his social issues on homeschooling.  I know it's NOT that because he's been the way he is his entire life and he sticks out as 'different' even within our homeschool group, and THEY'RE all homeschooled, too. 

Anyway, I'm pretty sure he does have some sort of ADD but wasn't really thinking dyslexia was in play but last night somehow I stumbled upon the "Bright Solutions for Dyslexia" site and my son displays or at least in the past has done many of the things.  For example, he didn't say a single word until he was 2.5 but was saying about 100 words by age 3 and took off from there.  He mixed up his left and right for YEARS.  I'm not sure he even has it totally down now (he has to think about it more than it being totally auto - but even if this isn't true (I tried to ask him but of course he denied that he was confused about it) I know for sure he was still confusing it by 9, 10, maybe even 11 (he's 12 now).  He reversed his b's and d's for YEARS - in fact, just yesterday he wrote a P instead of a 9, and then when I told him to fix it, right after that he wrote a 9 for a P!  But while he used to do this a LOT (up until age 8-9 he was still doing it very regularly) he doesn't do it very often anymore, but still once in a while he'll do it.  When he reads he seems like he is 'skimming' is how I've always described it.  I thought it was from him trying too hard to get info (especially on his computer) when his reading wasn't the best, so he would just search for the context/answer instead of thoroughly reading.  He still ties his shoes with 2 loops knotting them together - but then again, when I try to show him another way he says he doesn't want to learn, so maybe he really could do it now.  Reading music has been really hard for him - he's been in piano for 3 years and he's made progress, of course, but it's slow and my husband pretty much holds his hand through all his practices.  His reading still isn't what I'd really call 'fluent' and his writing is sloppy and I can't tell you how many times, over and over, I've told him "Capitalize the first word, period at the end" and he just keeps not doing it.  Also another issue is he won't capitalize I (as in me) ... he'll write i.  I've told him SOOOO many times it needs to be capitalized.  And leaving spaces between words, writing on the line, etc.  He just won't seem to correct it (or can't/has trouble?  I don't know)

The thing that does NOT fit is I feel DS's memory is just fine.  In fact, that's pretty much HOW he's done so well in piano.  He has his own way that we don't even really understand.  Learning his multiplication tables was not hard for him, but ordering numbers from smallest to largest WAS (still is a bit) hard for him.  The lecture I read seemed to talk a lot about memory being an issue, and I'm not seeing that - I'm seeing that as one of his strengths.

I guess I'll find out what they think in a few weeks, but I was just curious if anyone has a child with dylexia and what your experience has been with some of their symptoms that really stuck out and also if doing things like memorizing multiplication tables was hard?

Thanks!

[Assistive]

In my case, my daughter had a late diagnoses of dyslexia. The public school system did not remediate during the early ears so the window of opportunity had closed. I chose not to homeschool. We hired an advocate when she was in the sixth grade as teachers were hinting to me to take action and God blessed me with some honest staff members and directed me to resources. I trusted the school system to do its job and they failed. I had my child in enrichment programs since she was two as I sensed soemthing was wrong. I,under the advice of a camp advisor, had her tested for central audtory processing disorder, etc.,the evalustors found nothing wrong and no ADHD, Savvy administers, etc. pushed her and other kids like her along with low reading levels. She had been in special education since 2nd grade for reading--learning disability due to reading. They tried some interventions but did not use scienfiific based reading programs nor did they monitor her with infidelity. Most of it had to do with teacher training. It is a long story. I stopped blaming as some of them did their best but did not know or understand why such a bright, well motivated student had issues reading, He had great teachers. i am not going to bash teachers. She is very smart and well mannered. The school district agreed to an independent evaluation in 5th grade and that is how she was diagnosed with dyslexia. The journey began from there. I stopped and became her advocate. I also attended numerous workshops and delved into assistive technology, I also called the State Department of Edcuation in my state and many non profits to get advice. I only needed an advocate for a few months as I became an expert on my child's disability. More, through a lot of training, I learned to effectively collaborate with the school district to better secure that her needs were being met. I had to let go of may anger and blame and learn to collaborate and fully become a knowlegeable member of the PPT team. Believe it or not, many parents need to hire attorneys to secure FAPE for their kids. I did not as I had taken a six week workshops on such. Here are my key points if you have an older child who receives a late diagnoses of dyslexia and has not been remediated.

1. My daughter was also involved in extracurricular activities since she was very young. This helped with self-esteem through the years. Her faith in God and all those extracurriculars and friends helped her as she has high self-esteem. She was taught to strategize with reading which did help.

2. Investigate and use assistive technology, Teenagers are resistant as it makes them stand out. My child used a reading pen at home and still does not want to use AT school but in high school next year she has no choice as content is much harder and she plan to go to college. We a bought apple products and she uses them at home with any apps, etc. she chooses. Apple has dictatio, etc. She did not like Dragon technology. More, she discovered her own AT via her smart phone. The new school district ( we moved) which is great, cannot keep up with the current technology as it changes and teenagers figure it out with apps. Also, most school districts do not fully have a dedicated AT person for such needs. So, you as a parent must work with your child. The AT must be child driven not parent driven as my child and I had two different ideas of the best AT--she wants stuff that does not make her standout. I wanted AT like Kurzeil and she did not. We compromised-- for teenagers it must be child driven. She also knows, more than the AT person or me, what works for her as she keeps updated on AT. She will have a laptop in high school as it is "cool" but refuses it in middle school. In hgh school, many kids have laptops. She figures it out and attends apple worskhops as she knows what works for her. She is on the college track.

2. Supportive help--she receives supportive help and started getting an appropriate rigorous SBRI in sixth grade. She is now in eighth, as she will go into 9th grade, in the fall, does not want any more reading instruction--only supportive help. She is done with the 1-1 instruction, etc. The laborious nature of it has helped but she wants to move beyond it. Teachers agree as she has compensated so well through the years and has quickly grasped the encoding strategies. Yes, , she should keep doing it but is is her choice. She went through a lot with the dyslexia. Actually, those who know her best--her new team of teachers agree. They all agree that supportive help and ACCOMODATIONS are also necessary as she does need extended test time, etc. Sadly, one of the 1-1 teachers at her former school district resented teaching 1-1. I could have pushed for more types of services from the school district under IDEA but we knew what worked for my daughter.

3. Please note that you MUST watch how your child with dyslexia is tracked in the public schools. They still tend to group such kids together with kids with behavioral problems--especially as you get into the higher grades. Insist that your child is placed in the classes based on their ability and not thier disability. Or, you could have a child in a classroom where the teacher is only MANAGING behaviors and giving out worksheets and not teaching, Such does not work for my child. The school district stopped grouping her in higher level classes and she has proven that she can manage the work with support, AT,sheer determination,etc. A parent and child must be assertive about this point depending on the needs of your child. Do not allow your child to be grouped with behavioral kids in a classroom simpley because your child struggles with reading. That is the tendency of public schools. We also use Learning Ally, Bookshare, etc. I do not help with homework unless she ask for it. We had too many homework battles when she was young, at times. So, I step back and let her figure things out. Also, helping with homework too much masks any deficts that need to be addressed. She is very independent. I have cringed at some of her projects in the past but they are her projects and homework--not mine. By allowing her to fail, she actually is learning to succeed. Teachers follow up with projects that require more effort or essays that could be more structured--not me. With older teenagers, they must do it themselves and "own it." Teachers are,at times, better reinforcers than parents. Believe me, I saw a few papers leave this house where I wanted to sit down and correct a few items with her. I did not. Her review with her teachers on the corrections helped her more than me correcting such at home. It is a process.

In my child's case as she is older and has her own transition plan, her IEP is child driven. There is still much work on my end but with her input. The collaboration with teachers is key. I must admit that they have done a great job and sees more than I do and they have given great advice. Also, we moved to a new school district shortly after her dslexia diagnoses from her former school district. It helped and was refreshing, thank God.

We give her support outside the school system. She is very competitive in sports. Instead of summer tutoring, she did some reading and computer reading programs at home. Was it the best scenario? Again, it is child driven based on the needs of the child. She loved her summers at sports camps, competitions, etc, instead of with a tutor 3x or more a week. You have to know what works best with your child. My child is making progress and is happy. She has friends and is not a loner. She is labeled as gifted in the arts. She loves school. She is driven to go to college as she wants less support and such support to only mirror what she will receive in college. She has developed her own transition plan and advocates for herself.

This is child's journey. Each child is unique. I can suggest OG method to one parents and another parent may say that Read 180 was more effective. I can look back and say, any program must be implement with fidelity or it will not work regardless if it s OG, Wlson, Read 180, etc. There is no one size fits all program. Find what works best for your child. Many parents and some educators may argue against some of roads we have recently taken with her. They have valid arguments and some may disagree with them. It is Indiviudal. I have seen too many older teenagers miserable with the many hours per week of pull out to try to remediate them in reading. Some love it. It is child driven based on their diagnoses. Work with teachers when you have an older struggling reader. The wise teachers have helped us a great deal. I had to open my ears to listen.

I can look back and say "it is well." I can look back and say, " my child struggled but made it." I can only tell parents my journey and hope that they can take some parts of it and find hope and use some of the strategies. My child was "left behind" by not being remediated early for reading problems. Guess what, she is doing great. She has to work harder, try harder and give 200% more than her peers in academics. She learned in sports that such is what athletes do and you get past those mental blocks that keep you from pursing excellence. Her faith keeps her strong as her journey has been long and will continue to be long. She does have her down days but knows that she is fine. She is going into high school in the fall. My goodness, the intensity of the last 2 years for my child could have led to despair. Regardless of the situation, good has come out of it, She will always struggle with reading but not with the fact that she is "driven." I am thankful to God for her determination. It helps me to advocate for her,

[LitMom]

I have a dyslexic brother, father, and aunt, and a daughter who has not been diagnosed, but I'm pretty convinced she has it or something in the same field--dysgraphia maybe. Her writing is terrible. Her spelling is slowly improving. Her reading was early, followed by several years with very very little progress, followed by a big leap in the last 2 years and now she reads 1 grade level ahead! Her writing is about a grade level behind meanwhile, but is progressing.

She struggles with right and left, but has gotten some help with that from a reading specialist. (It's a regular school that offers a homeschool supplemental class twice a week). I have trouble with right and left as a grown woman! You just get used to it. A lot of "Turn left. Your other left." when I drive.

Her writing we just work on, along with learning typing, which she's pretty good at. If she were in school, I think the teacher would be saying "Clearly she's bright by her comments in class, but she will only write the bare minimum, and sometimes not even that. That's affecting her grades." She struggled with backwards writing, and even used to make little books for her brother where the pages turned the wrong way, the words were backwards. That's gotten better too in the last year or so.

She has trouble with two digit and greater math, reading them backwards or garbled. She had no trouble memorizing multiplication tables though. Carrying and borrowing is a struggle for her. 

On the memory thing, we've always said that she has a mind like a steel trap. She recalls details from long ago, and memorizes many things very quickly. This is common for my other family members with dyslexia as well. However, she is also absent-minded and will forget stuff behind, lose things easily, and make careless mistakes (She soaked a library book and her whole backpack because she "didn't notice" that her water bottle was completely open before putting it in the bag upside down.) I try to work on attention with this stuff, and systems for her to organize her stuff. If she's seen it completely organized, she can keep it organized. But ask her to organize something and she just can't. (The water bottle I think we're just going to require that she keep it on the outside of the backpack where it can do less damage...)