Unbiased information about vaccine safety/efficacy - Page 3

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Katie8681 

"Most of us are not at all against vaccines in theory.  We are pro-vaccine choice.  We want there to be thorough and stringent studies about the long-term safety and effectiveness of the entire vaccine schedule."

You and others say this, but every time a new study is published that reinforces the idea that vaccines are safe and effective for the overwhelming majority of the population, except for people with allergies to eggs or with certain seizure disorders, the goalposts get moved. Every time, a new hypothesis comes up attempting to link a vaccine/all vaccines to some mystery ailment. Celiac, autism, ADHD, RA, lupus, and I'm sure in time it will be Alzheimers and Parkinsons. Probably the latter two have already been suggested on some website or other. I don't think there is research that could be done that could satisfy this movement, and oh yes, there certainly is a movement. A certain segment of the population has to have the MAN- someone- ANYONE- responsible for their child's illness. Vaccines are convenient because so many children get them. And I wouldn't care except to feel sorry for your kids, except for the fact that it effects the most vulnerable members of society that cannot be vaccinated.

The whole vaccine debate can be boiled down to "first world problems". What luxurious lives we live.

No, there is no study examining long-term effects of the entire vaccine schedule.  

Ignoring the very real risks of vaccinating doesn't do anyone any good, and it is all of our kids who are the guinea pigs.  Vaccines may seem like a scapegoat until you watch your child have a reaction hours after getting vaccinated and not recover for months.  It is arguments like yours that will never carry any weight for parents who have a child with a vaccine reaction because there is no compassion or empathy except for those who can't be vaccinated?  So my kid having had a reaction is too bad, so sad, because it must all be in my head?  Nice.  Very compassionate.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Katie8681 

A certain segment of the population has to have the MAN- someone- ANYONE- responsible for their child's illness. 

This is such hypocrisy because many pro-vax parents like to blame non-vax parents for their child's illness.  Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  I know you believe this is the case, but again, parents are just not this stupid.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

what if someone's Doctor agrees with selective/delayed/non-vaxing? Only YOUR dr. can be valid?

....a blog called momswhovax is going to provide unbiased material and NVIC is deemed a bad source?

this is just going to go around in circles...

And to come back to this point, since when does "science" disregard real-world observations?  Science isn't just vaccine theory and what happens in the lab.  What happens to people who get the medicine is still science.  Anecdotes are not irrelevant to the scientific method.

[tiqa]

I would disagree with that... I think vaccines are one issue that is actually NOT just a first world problem but a whole-world problem.  Didn't some of the most interesting arguments against/for vaccinating arise out of issues in third-world countries?

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by tiqa 

I would disagree with that... I think vaccines are one issue that is actually NOT just a first world problem but a whole-world problem.  Didn't some of the most interesting arguments against/for vaccinating arise out of issues in third-world countries?

This is a good point.

And if it is a first world luxury - so what?  What difference does it make?  I want my children to have optimal health, as any parent does.  I just don't think that vaccines are going to provide them with that.  I should feel guilty for that because I had the privilege of being born in the United States?

[Sweetmilo]

I was PROvaccines until I had children.  I got the flushot every year (every other year I got the flu, but that's neither here nor there) and encouraged everyone I knew to do the same.  When my daughter was born, I was amazed at the amount of stuff they were going to inject into her body.  I asked my pediatrician at the time about delayed vaccines vs not vaccinating vs getting them all at once, and before he would even humor me with a response I was told that their office did not treat children who did not get vaccinated.  I switched pediatricians.  At the new Dr.'s office I asked the same questions and then got into a debate about how dangerous it was to  not vaccinate, only realizing half an hour later that the woman was not even listening to me.  I brought up the varicella vaccine and was then told that thousands of children die a year from chicken pox.  I looked it up.  100 people had died that year according to the CDC, and this doesn't list things like age/health/complications that might have caused the death.  Just a number.  6 pediatricians later I have found someone who was willing to listen to my questions, and answer as best she could.  My daughter is fully vaccinated (except for the varricella vaccine) and my son has not had any vaccines.  She had 2 rather bad reactions from the Dtap vaccine, the first time I noted it and said she is not going to get the second one.  My husband and the pediatrician at the time went behind my back and gave it to her anyway.  the second time she had a reaction was worse than the first (the vaccine site was red and swollen for a WEEK, yes I'm still uber ANGRY ABOUT IT, but I digress)

the point I am trying to make here is this is a very very difficult decision to make as we all know.  Will I get my son vaccinated??? I just don't know.  Both of my kids get sick, they are both very smart kids (of course they are, they are mine   )  Is there unbiased information out there?  Probably not.  I doubt you can find unbiased information on any topic much less one that runs so close to the hearts of our little race as a whole, which is the health of our children and the future of our species.  I find NVIC to be a place that I turn to often.  I was hoping to find a resource in this particular discussion that would run on the other side.  So far, all I have found is anger.  does anyone have any more suggestions?

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Katie8681 

 And I wouldn't care except to feel sorry for your kids, except for the fact that it effects the most vulnerable members of society that cannot be vaccinated.

Sorry for our kids?!?  I would suggest you edit.  I don't think we should bring other people's kids into an argument - it is a low blow.  

The whole vaccine debate can be boiled down to "first world problems". What luxurious lives we live.

Yes, it somewhat can.  I live here, though, so I will look at the context of where I live when I choose what if any vaccines to get.   I do not understand your point - are we supposed to vaccinate because it might be a good idea in parts of Africa? 

Edited by kathymuggle - 2/10/12 at 8:33am

[Taximom5]

Prosciencemum quotes from ScienceAtHome:  

"At this point you have three options.

1. Vaccines are helpful because the interlocking grid of different loyalties, beliefs and backgrounds of the tens of thousands of people involved help to ensure that vaccine research, use, regulation and monitoring is stringently overseen and problems are quickly picked up.

2. Vaccines are harmful and the researchers, regulators and health workers are too incompetent to see the dangers and disasters happening around them, but they can be detected by a simple check of the product insert when you have a vaccination appointment.

3. Vaccines are harmful and it is a conspiracy. The tens of thousands of researchers, health workers, statisticians, ethics boards and especially regulators know that vaccines are evil, but they ignore it or actively cover it up and allow them to continue to maim and kill. They vaccinate their own children and allow them to be poisoned. Somehow this global conspiracy (which is a lot more successful getting people to work together than any attempts at world peace) has kept the secret and fooled us all except for the dedicated few. You probably know several of these evil people who are hurting your children."

Actually, there are many options.  Those 3 options might be the way ScienceAtHome wants everyone else to see it, but they are grossly oversimplified caricatures, and they don't reflect reality.

How about:

Vaccines are a brilliant idea on paper, but are severely problematic due to the following factors:

1) incomplete understanding of the human immune system

2) incomplete knowledge of the effects (both short-term and long-term) of many of the ingredients in vaccines 

3) lack of studies on the cumulative effects of vaccines

4) lack of studies on synergistic effects of various vaccine ingredients

5) lack of independent studies on both safety and efficacy, as most studies are fraught with conflicts of interest that would not be allowed in other industries

6) lack of studies on high-risk subgroups who might be more prone to severe reaction

7) lack of education amongst doctors in recognizing and treating vaccine reactions

8) history of major ethical problems in the industry that produces, studies, markets, and profits from vaccines

9) MAJOR conflicts of interest in the system meant to oversee and monitor the vaccine industry

10) the industry is set up so that profit trumps all.  And we all know it.

Because of 1-10, innocent people have died.  Other innocent people have had their lives, and the lives of their families ruined.

1297 people in the US alone have been compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage.  And they had to go through an extraordinarily adversarial process to get that vaccine damage recognized--but as soon as it was recognized, it was hushed up, and they were cautioned not to talk about it.

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

1297 people in the US alone have been compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage.  And they had to go through an extraordinarily adversarial process to get that vaccine damage recognized--but as soon as it was recognized, it was hushed up, and they were cautioned not to talk about it.

thats true of ANY medical malpractice suit...the issues get recognized, then it gets hushed up, and recipients are told they are sworn to secrecy in regards to the outcome of the lawsuit...this happened to my sisters' father in law, and others i have known who brought a medical malpractice suit against their dr/organization. 

[WildKingdom]

 Originally Posted by Taximom5 

1297 people in the US alone have been compensated for vaccine-induced brain damage.  And they had to go through an extraordinarily adversarial process to get that vaccine damage recognized--but as soon as it was recognized, it was hushed up, and they were cautioned not to talk about it.

Originally Posted by emmy526 

thats true of ANY medical malpractice suit...the issues get recognized, then it gets hushed up, and recipients are told they are sworn to secrecy in regards to the outcome of the lawsuit...this happened to my sisters' father in law, and others i have known who brought a medical malpractice suit against their dr/organization. 

Hmmm...secret, adversarial process, eh?  http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/opinions_decisions_vaccine/Published

I suggest you read the above website.  It has every single vaccine court ruling.  Every single one.  Hardly a secret.  As for being adversarial...how many other courts will pay all the attorney fees, so that anyone, absolutely anyone can bring a case with absolutely no financial consequences?  That's how the vaccine court works. 

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Katie8681 

The whole vaccine debate can be boiled down to "first world problems". What luxurious lives we live.

 I'm sure the Argentine courts will be relieved to hear that they need not worry about GSK's ethics violations in vaccine studies on Argentinian children, since this is a "first world problem."

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1340857/gsk-lab-fined-over-vaccine-tests-that-killed-14-babies

* on a totally off topic side note, I HATE it when people use this argument to tell women they should just go to hospital and follow the rules and not attempt NCB/HB/UC. If I were a woman giving birth in a war/famine ravaged nation, bad living conditions, no clean water, little/no available healthcare, yeah, I would give my right arm to birth in a hospital too. But I'm not, so I shouldn't do what's best for me? apples and oranges.  

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Hmmm...secret, adversarial process, eh?  http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/opinions_decisions_vaccine/Published

I suggest you read the above website.  It has every single vaccine court ruling.  Every single one.  Hardly a secret.  As for being adversarial...how many other courts will pay all the attorney fees, so that anyone, absolutely anyone can bring a case with absolutely no financial consequences?  That's how the vaccine court works. 

Wildkingdom, please stop putting words in my mouth.  I did not say that the process was secret. I said that the process is adversarial, and that families involved who DID receive compensation have come forward to say that they were told not to talk about it; even when there was no official gag order, they were warned that their compensation--which is to pay for lifetime medical care for their injured child---would be jeopardized if they dared to talk about it.  See [PDF]

 

Unanswered Questions from the Vaccine Injury Compensation ...

digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681...pelr

 

 

Parents interviewed--parents who WON in Vaccine Court--state that the whole process was extremely adversarial.  I've also seen a press conference (it's probably available on YouTube) where parents (who won) came forward and spoke about how they were threatened with cessation of their compensation if they spoke about about their child's having been damaged by vaccines.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

This is such hypocrisy because many pro-vax parents like to blame non-vax parents for their child's illness.  Sorry, you can't have it both ways.  I know you believe this is the case, but again, parents are just not this stupid.

This is a cop-out. I would never dream of blaming a non-vaxing parent for my child coming down with some cold, or some random illness. However, I have seen on this very board parents getting all mad because someone didn't want to be around their children after they knowingly exposed their kid to chickenpox. Which is a VPD. My kid is vaxed, so I wouldn't be terribly concerned, but I don't want your purposefully exposed kid coming over and then exposing my kid - because vaxes aren't 100%. Is my kid likely to get it? Maybe not. But  if you knowingly expose my kid without my express permission, yes I will be PISSED. Especially if my kid gets it. I mean, come on. Your expose my kid on purpose (because you intentionally exposed your kid to it), and then expect me to be all A-OK with it? Nope, you don't get to disregard my families dislike for VPDs just because you don't want to quarantine your kids after intentionally exposing them to VPDs.

[MommatoGray]

Honestly I still don't know what I feel, so I have nothing of substance to add....

But I wanted to say:

Imakcerka you are awesome!

[slmommy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

This is a cop-out. I would never dream of blaming a non-vaxing parent for my child coming down with some cold, or some random illness. However, I have seen on this very board parents getting all mad because someone didn't want to be around their children after they knowingly exposed their kid to chickenpox. 

I'm sure you have seen that on these boards. But earlier in this thread (post #35) I brought up an article on blog we were discussing earlier, where the mother specifically blames and states that her 5 week old daughter got pertussis from an unvaccinated child. From the article it appears that she has no way to know that. She simply states that some children in her older DD's class are unvaccinated. She does not say any of them had pertussis. Even if they did, wouldn't it mean probably her vaxed DD transmitted WC to the younger baby?

That is not a cop-out. Anyone who thinks their child had a vax reaction is just blaming the man/system just because they need something to blame (implying it's not a real reaction but some other ailment)... but then anyone whose child does catch a VPD can blame non-vaxers because they need something to blame (implying there is never fault in vax protection, so it MUST be a non-vaxer)? Hypocrisy.
 

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

This is a cop-out. I would never dream of blaming a non-vaxing parent for my child coming down with some cold, or some random illness. However, I have seen on this very board parents getting all mad because someone didn't want to be around their children after they knowingly exposed their kid to chickenpox. Which is a VPD. My kid is vaxed, so I wouldn't be terribly concerned, but I don't want your purposefully exposed kid coming over and then exposing my kid - because vaxes aren't 100%. Is my kid likely to get it? Maybe not. But  if you knowingly expose my kid without my express permission, yes I will be PISSED. Especially if my kid gets it. I mean, come on. Your expose my kid on purpose (because you intentionally exposed your kid to it), and then expect me to be all A-OK with it? Nope, you don't get to disregard my families dislike for VPDs just because you don't want to quarantine your kids after intentionally exposing them to VPDs.

That's completely off-topic.  I don't know many parents who would do that.  I certainly wouldn't.  You can't lump all non-vaxers into this category just because you've seen a few parents on this board talking about it.

[Imakcerka]

The name of this thread seriously needs to be changed.  If the goal is to actually educate anyone to include me, this is an EPIC FAIL. 

I've gone back and forth with vaccines for a very long time myself.  All of my anger is concerning the FLU vaccine.  And as a former Military Member... Anthrax... but that crap was obvious and people were getting court martialed rather than go back for their second dose.  All other vaccines are not suspect to me at this point.  I do find Chicken pox ridiculous... I still have my chicken pox scars.  However I can see the benefits of all the rest. 

So help me find information that will allow me to see the good and the bad of vaccinating/not vaccinating. 

I'm not here to argue and get caught up with petty finger pointing.  I want to know real facts.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

The name of this thread seriously needs to be changed.  If the goal is to actually educate anyone to include me, this is an EPIC FAIL. 

So help me find information that will allow me to see the good and the bad of vaccinating/not vaccinating. 

I'm not here to argue and get caught up with petty finger pointing.  I want to know real facts.

I am not sure there are unbiased sites, period.  You might be asking for something that does not exist.  I would be happy if anyone proved me worng on this.  

Start with the CDC pink book - look at the incidence rate of diseases you are interested in vaxxing for versus the reaction rate of the corresponding vaccine.    There is a good possibility both the incident rate and reaction are low estimates as both diseases and vaccine reactions are under-reported.   Still, they are a place to start. 

If you come to the conclusion (as I did ) that in almost all cases the vaccine reaction rate is higher than the likelihood of anyone getting said disease, you will need to figure out what you think of vaccinating to keep diseases from recurring (i.e.  herd immunity).

specific things to consider:

-whether herd immunity exists as  a factor in keeping diseases at bay, which diseases, and to what degree. 

-ethical considerations:  is it ok for your child to assume a small but very real risk for the benefit of keeping diseases away? 

I think family history plays an account.  

The above is where I would start if I were contemplating whether or not to vax.  

I think issues of trust and what you consider evidence are also important.

That is all I got.  It is not much.  I think both sides of this debate (not just on MDC) have failed at providing information to parents in a non-polarising way.  

Edited by kathymuggle - 2/12/12 at 3:51pm

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

The name of this thread seriously needs to be changed.  If the goal is to actually educate anyone to include me, this is an EPIC FAIL. 

I've gone back and forth with vaccines for a very long time myself.  All of my anger is concerning the FLU vaccine.  And as a former Military Member... Anthrax... but that crap was obvious and people were getting court martialed rather than go back for their second dose.  All other vaccines are not suspect to me at this point.  I do find Chicken pox ridiculous... I still have my chicken pox scars.  However I can see the benefits of all the rest. 

So help me find information that will allow me to see the good and the bad of vaccinating/not vaccinating. 

I'm not here to argue and get caught up with petty finger pointing.  I want to know real facts.

Since I started the thread, I guess I'm the one who has to apologize for the epic fail then.

I really thought I was posting unbiased information about safety/efficacy.  I still think that one can present information from the point of view of someone who was harmed by vaccines, or not protected by vaccines, or both, and that information can be factual and untwisted, but I can see how you can also argue that the point of view of someone harmed or not protected by vaccines is biased.

The thing is, very, very few people who were not harmed themselves (or saw their loved one harmed) seem to believe that harm occurs.

Imakcerka, you are a good example--you are angry about the flu vaccine because you have seen harm come from it, first-hand.  What kind of facts regarding the other shots are you looking for?  Did you get a look at www.14studies.org, or www.nvic.org?  Did those not provide the kind of information you are looking for?

[slmommy]

Imakcerka, 

I don't think we can say there are "unbiased" sources. And even if there were, someone would have a problem and find some way to say it is "biased."

I agree with Kathy about cdc pink book.

I made a thread in this forum with links to the product insert information of various vaccines/brands:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1344764/product-inserts  Sometimes they have some interesting info and lots of references and footnotes to other research, if you are so inclined. They have some interesting info about *known* reactions, and lots of contraindications, both of which sometimes seem to get glossed over.

While considered "biased" I think NVIC has a lot of information and Dr. Sears as well, and Dr. Sears especially for someone starting.