How is one supposed to research and make decisions about vaccinations if the pros and cons cannot be discussed? What exactly is the purpose of this forum, then, and how is it different than the others?
I think that is a brilliant question and one I had myself.
I posted a reminder about this policy in one thread just to prevent it from getting a padlock slapped on it. But I totally see where you're coming from. Maybe take it up with the Mods? There's a Questions and Suggestions forum on MDC, so you might start there.
I hope they clear it up. I like reading the back and forth and it certainly gives me more to look into. I don't think there is anyway you can ever be completely certain about anything honestly. There is so much out there for both sides and it really is important that they're explored. Especially on here.
Actually that's the first thing I wondered too. Bit difficult to talk about your decision without discussing the pros and cons of vaccination - since presumably that's what your informed decision would have been based on! ;)
How can a person make an informed decision without being able to see/debate the pro's n con's of such an important issue? To me, its kinda like picking a president on hearsay without being able to see or hear any evidence on either side.
Yeah, I saw the name of the forum and thought that MDC was finally going to allow rational discussion, but I guess not.
Yeah, I saw the name of the forum and thought that MDC was finally going to allow rational discussion, but I guess not.
There is debate/discussion allowed on the main vaccine page.
The way I look at it is it's not supposed to be pro or anti vaccine people posting just for the heck of it, it's supposed to be moms who are honestly not sure what they're going to do, so if pro-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good. If an anti-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good. But if pro-vaccine mom then responds to anti-vaccine mom, and they go at it, back and forth, that defeats the purpose. The mom who originally posted should be able to take the information from both sides and come to her own conclusion as it relates to her own life. I think it's possible to present both sides to a mom wondering what to do, without it getting into a heated debate.
How can a person make an informed decision without being able to see/debate the pro's n con's of such an important issue? To me, its kinda like picking a president on hearsay without being able to see or hear any evidence on either side.
I guess. I think I understand MDC's intent - sometimes we do get so bogged down in debate (not all of it friendly) that perhaps MDC worries that the loud talking heads (myself included) will overtake the needs of parents faced with making a decision.
And yet I think keeping discussion or disagreement totally out of it is going to be tricky. Even talking about your own experiences are tricky. I could coach everything I say in "I" sentences - such as "I was worried about what the real side effect rate from this vaccine was" and someone else could come on and say " I am not worried because the only valid information comes from CDC and the risks are very small." but that would promote a sort of passive aggressive, underhanded style of communication that might make getting to the meat on the matter really onerous.
It will be interesting to see how this forum plays out.
The way I look at it is it's not supposed to be pro or anti vaccine people posting just for the heck of it, it's supposed to be moms who are honestly not sure what they're going to do, so if pro-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good. If an anti-vaccine mom posts their opinion, good. But if pro-vaccine mom then responds to anti-vaccine mom, and they go at it, back and forth, that defeats the purpose. The mom who originally posted should be able to take the information from both sides and come to her own conclusion as it relates to her own life. I think it's possible to present both sides to a mom wondering what to do, without it getting into a heated debate.
THen why not just have a resource page with two sets of resources, pro and anti, and let people form their own decisions based on the information available. What would really be useful, is having comments on the resources - there is a lot of bad information out there - and a lot of flies in both directions here on MDC and elsewhere but few people are really equipped to understand what the actual studies did, whether it was scientifically sound, and what the conclusions were, if any. If not, it is just the same old, same old that you find in the other forums here. I don't want "opinion", I want to understand the facts and the science behind them.
THen why not just have a resource page with two sets of resources, pro and anti, and let people form their own decisions based on the information available. What would really be useful, is having comments on the resources - there is a lot of bad information out there - and a lot of flies in both directions here on MDC and elsewhere but few people are really equipped to understand what the actual studies did, whether it was scientifically sound, and what the conclusions were, if any. If not, it is just the same old, same old that you find in the other forums here. I don't want "opinion", I want to understand the facts and the science behind them.
It sounds like what you want is a subforum that comes at things from what I would consider a tradition medical/scientific viewpoint (fairly pro-vax). If you want a "I vaccinate" forum you could ask for one. We have a Non-vax forum and I quite like having people I don't have to defend/explain my viewpoint to over and over.
I said it earlier, but I will say it again - I think debate and discussion definitely happen on the main vaccination page - do you disagree? 
My sister's baby died the day after vaccination and I have some in-laws that claim their child is autistic due to vaccines. So, I had to do some quite the research on the issue. The implications of not vaccinating are that you will worry more often about your child getting a deadly disease. You will also be restricted at with international travel and if an outbreak at the school occurs. Here is what I learned.
1- What they put into the vaccines is appalling. If you read the ingredients, you will know right away that this is pure poison. Some of the worst offenders have been mercury (thimerosol), aborted fetus (rubella vaccination), monkey kidney, and formeldehyde (heavy toxin). The list is long for each. If you harrass your doctor, they'll eventually give you the tiny microprint label that comes with the vaccine.
2- Many of the diseases are not that serious and/or do not exist. That means that in many cases, the vaccine is more for convenience than true safety. Like our pediatrician said, "We don't really need a chicken pox vaccine, but it sure is a lot nicer than having to treat the disease." With polio, there hasn't been a case in the US for twenty years and if you do get it, it's less than a mild cold. It just so happens that a tiny percentage of those who get it have very detrimental effects and that's what the vaccine was invented for. People are afraid polio will come back without the vaccine. I have no idea if that is plausible or not.
3- Some of the diseases are pretty serious. For example, meningitis amd HIB. The vaccine protects against bacterial meningitis and bacterial HIB, but not viral. So, statistically you're about 50% covered. There have been real reductions in death from this vaccine in the last 30 years. Whooping cough is making a comeback and a friend of mine had their baby nearly die from it. So, this is a real concern as whooping cough cases have been shooting upwards due to lack of immunization.
I think your chances of problems are small either way you go (vaccinate or not). Dr. Laura claims about 7k kids are harmed each year by vaccinations (a small number). And, the Feds have a national vaccine compensation fund for people hurt by the vaccines. So, they are not harmless. Merck has been sued by large groups many times for the bad effects. Still, they do protect the population and so here is what I ultimately think.
There are too many vaccinations and they start them at too young of an age (especially hepatitis b); especially since it's a sexually transmitted disease. Some vaccinations should be removed, but they generate too much cash and people are so fearful of the disease coming back. Many countries vaccinate much less than the US and have better mortality rates and lower issues in things like autism, gastointestinal issues, and add (all supposed vaccination effects).
I don't know if this helps. I got a lot of information from the CDC website a few years back, but someone told me they took all the negative information off their website now. Benjamin Franklin didn't immunize his son against small pox because he was afraid of the vaccination and his son died from it. It was one of his greatest regrets. And yet, that's anecdotal evidence and doesn't mean much. Still, if nobody has died of the disease for many many years, then it's probably not that scary of a thing and that's how many of these diseases are; and some are not.
Because moms are going to be posting about their life. There are so many factors to consider. This is not one size fits all. And as someone else pointed out their is plenty of regular old debate on the main forum.
THen why not just have a resource page with two sets of resources, pro and anti, and let people form their own decisions based on the information available. What would really be useful, is having comments on the resources - there is a lot of bad information out there - and a lot of flies in both directions here on MDC and elsewhere but few people are really equipped to understand what the actual studies did, whether it was scientifically sound, and what the conclusions were, if any. If not, it is just the same old, same old that you find in the other forums here. I don't want "opinion", I want to understand the facts and the science behind them.
If you harrass your doctor, they'll eventually give you the tiny microprint label that comes with the vaccine.
True--but it's easier to look it up on the internet before you go to the appointment! Print it out and bring it with you, in case they claim that they can't find the package insert, or show you one for a different vaccine. I had to show the nurse where "thimerosal-25 mcg" was listed on a multi-vial vaccine that SHE insisted was thimerosal-free (multi-vial vaccines are always preserved with thimerosal.) And this was in 2004--well after thimerosal was supposedly "taken out" of pediatric vaccines.
What really happened was that the pharmaceutical companies continued to sell and distribute thimerosal-containing vaccines. And pediatricians continued to use them as long as the expiration date had not passed.
You can find the package inserts here: http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm
I think people having a safe place to seek information, without wading into passionate debates, is cool.
I am just not sure what it looks look.
What if some one posts something that is clearly wrong - are we not supposed to be able to comment?
And, of course, what is "clearly wrong " is often subjective….
(while it hasn't worked perfectly, I do think there are few threads on this new subforum that have not veered into polarised arguing)
I just read that there is a resource page of sorts - why not work on making that easier to navigate for newbies? Why create a brand new forum that really doesn't serve much of a purpose?
I think people having a safe place to seek information, without wading into passionate debates, is cool.
I am just not sure what it looks look.
What if some one posts something that is clearly wrong - are we not supposed to be able to comment?
And, of course, what is "clearly wrong " is often subjective….
(while it hasn't worked perfectly, I do think there are few threads on this new subforum that have not veered into polarised arguing)
As someone who lurks on the vax forums, I have to say, I do agree with this. I don't usually post on these boards because responders often become self-righteous and condescending and I can only handle so much. Ultimately, both sides could present compelling, scientific evidence, but without discussion/debate of it, where does that leave the newbies? In allowing debate, you're simply duplicating a forum that already exists. Further, you're dealing with a passionate topic so yes, people are going to voice their opinion(s) when they think a response is "clearly wrong" and ultimately, it is all very subjective. I think it's asking a little too much to have a debate-free forum where both sides co-exist and provide their opinion without responding to individual posters.
I think it would make sense to have an "I choose to vaccinate" board to balance the "selective/delayed", and "I'm not vaccinating" boards. That would then give people who are pro vaccination, but enjoy the Mothering ethos in all other ways a place here to feel at home, without needing to get angry or indignant at misinformation and anecdotes posted elsewhere. Plus newbies wanting to see that side of the argument without it getting heated could then visit there. How would you go about asking Mothering for that?
Karen.
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