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Charting to Avoid/Fertility Awareness February - Page 2

post #21 of 71


Speaking of the P+4... I'm still a little confused about that.  In TCOYF it's 4 days of no wet "sensation", right? I need to double check my book. What is CCL's definition of dryup? I noticed with my cycles so far that I had a bit of dry up, but still got some creamy in my LP. I'm not terribly concerned about that but if I were being very strict with the rules I doubt I would have sex very often 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

Butterflymomma, oh yes, I forgot to mention how to treat your temp drop with the rules.  TCOYF takes a more conservative approach and has you restart your temp count after your temp goes back up.  According to CCL, if your temp drops for just one day, you would assume that you could potentially be fertile on that one day, but as soon as your temp jumps back up, and you have 3 (non-consecutive) days of temp rise cross-checked with P+4, you're good to go.

 

JenRN, a slow temp rise can indicate low progesterone, but the fact that it happens once really doesn't mean anything unless it becomes a pattern.


 

 

post #22 of 71

NFPI and CCL generally categorize CM into "more-fertile type" (designated on the chart with a circle with a "+" in it) and "less-fertile type" (designated on the chart with a circle with a "-" in it) mucus, and "Peak day" is defined as the last day of "more-fertile type" CM.  "More-fertile type" would be any combination of "clear," "stretchy," or "slippery."  In some cases, "tacky" would be considered as "more-fertile," and CCL has attempted to clarify this by saying, "Focus on the change."  In most cases, there is a significant change around ovulation from what came before, and while different women have different qualities to their "more-fertile" and "less-fertile" CM, most women who can get to know their cycles can get so that they can see a significant change and establish a "peak day."  The Creighton Model has the most advanced methods of establishing this peak day, even when some CM continues during the LP.  I really like having the temperature sign because it is a great way to cross-check.  If I see a temp rise, I'm not that concerned if I see some CM return.  If I don't see a temp rise, I know I'm still looking for a different peak day.

post #23 of 71

Oh crap!  Here I thought I was safe because of the 3 day rule. Hubby and I had unprotected relations the day after my temp dip. Shoot! Well I guess I am in the 2ww then. How likely do you think it is that I actually O'd later than TCOYF pinpointed? Ugghh, maybe I am not getting the hang of this charting thingy JMJ..lol.

 

Looking back at my chart, I think I should have looked at it a little closer.  TCOYF used the rule of thumb on a semi-high temp. If I factor that one in there I didn't have three days of higher temps before the dip. Plus the week of O was very stressful/sleep deprived for me. My hubby was out of town and the family was sick, myself included. I didn't get 2 hours straight sleep the entire time he was gone. Normally though lack of sleep does not interfere with my temps. I have a lot of trouble sleeping, so I thought my body was just adjusting to it.

 

I do have a kinda yucky CM question. Is it possible for sticky CM to stretch? Does having a head cold cause you to have extra stretchy cm? It was either 2or 3DPO (TCOYF calculations) when I noticed a very stretchy (I am talking hanging from the tp at least 3 inches) piece of CM. When I ran it between my fingers it kind of gummed up and got sticky. Would that be considered sticky or EW? Sorry for the TMI, just wondering.

 

ETA: I wanted to add that I was having TCOYF calculate using temp only. When I changed to temp+CM, it pinpoints my O day on CD21 right before my temp shift into the 98s (which is where I usually am after O). CD 21 is the day that we had unprotected relations, so I am definitely in the 2WW. Great.


Edited by buterflymomma - 2/14/12 at 8:24am
post #24 of 71

I'll start with your CM question first.  That is stretchy, which is always a more-fertile type mucus.  Was it clear, cloudy, white, or yellow-tinted?  Yellow-tinted can be less-fertile, but what you're describing sounds pretty darn fertile to me.  I would mark that day as Peak day.  So, P= CD 19 or 20?

 

With the temps, I'm not so concerned about TCOYF taking out the temp on CD 12 because even if you add it back in, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference.  CCL and NFPI do not use the cover line technique.  They just look for temperatures that are higher than the temperatures that come before.  NFPI has a method of determining the strength of a temperature rise.  You have a temperature rise beginning on CD 18.  According to NFPI, it is an "overall thermal shift" (all 3 temps are at least .1F above Low Temperature Line (highest of pre-shift 6), at least one temp is .4F above LTL) without shaving the temp on CD 12, or if you shave the temp on CD 12, it is a "strong thermal shift" (all 3 temps are at least .2F above LTL, third temp is at least .4F above LTL).  An overall thermal shift requires 4 days of drying up past peak day (rule B).  A strong thermal shift only requires 3 (rule R).

 

So, from the information you provided me, it is possible that you could have been within those rules if your Peak day was CD 19 and you waited until the evening to have relations with your DH.  In that case, you would have reached your third day of strong thermal shift on CD 20, assumed fertility on the day of temp drop, and then assumed infertility when your temp jumped back up on CD 22.  Additionally, if P=CD 19, P+3 would be CD 22, so your infertile phase would begin (according to rule R with shaving) the evening of CD 22.  If, however, your peak day was on CD 20, you would have had to wait until the evening of CD 23.

 

That said, when we're looking at statistics, your chances of conceiving do go up for every day you cut short, but given the information that is there, I would think that it would still be pretty unlikely that you would be pregnant, even if you weren't totally within the rules.  The temp jump on CD 22 really looks like ovulation was in the past, and the egg can only live 12-24 hours, and it can take that long for sperm to get there, so when you're TTC, you really want to aim intercourse for before ovulation.  It's possible but much more difficult to get pregnant after ovulation.

post #25 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by buterflymomma View Post

 

I do have a kinda yucky CM question. Is it possible for sticky CM to stretch? Does having a head cold cause you to have extra stretchy cm? It was either 2or 3DPO (TCOYF calculations) when I noticed a very stretchy (I am talking hanging from the tp at least 3 inches) piece of CM. When I ran it between my fingers it kind of gummed up and got sticky. Would that be considered sticky or EW? Sorry for the TMI, just wondering.

 



This is what seminal residue looks like for me.  I don't know if this is what it looks like for everyone, because I'm in the category of women who retain seminal fluid for one or two days while breastfeeding, even when I use the Creighton protocol to eleminate SR after intercourse.  It's lubricative, very stretchy, but with a gluey/gummy quality, especially when handled.  Frequently it has a yellowish tint to it, and can be clear and cloudy.  It shows up about 12-36 hours after intercourse.  It's almost always distinctive enough that I could never confuse it with real CF, but on occasion I judge it on its merits just to be safe.

 

Out of curiosity, how do non-Creighton people deal w/SR? 

 

post #26 of 71

JMJ~ Thank you for explaining a bit more in detail. It is still a bit confusing to me, but makes me feel a bit better. I only have about 3-4 days to wait until AF is due to arrive. My LPs have been so short since the m/c, even if I were to get pregnant I don't think I would be able to sustain it. I am hoping that O was really on CD17 because that means my LP is lengthening. However with the cm I had on Thursday, peak day would be CD20. So, what I am reading is that since we had relations on CD21, there is a small possibility of pregnancy, but not much? Would that mean that O day is CD21 like TCOYF changed it to? I am sorry to ask again. I am just so confused. I thought that I was getting it under control and then bam. This happens.

 

Also, do you think being sick last week messed with my temps? Made them higher than they should have been? The days that my temps were higher, I was getting very broken sleep/had a head cold.I was up and down with the kids and got maybe 4-5 hours sleep total each night and only 1-1.5 hours at a time.

post #27 of 71

Mt. gooseberry~ Hubby was out of town, so I am certain it wasn't left over SR. Plus we used protection before he left because I was still in my fertile phase. However, that is good information to have. It may help when we are actively TTC to differentiate CM from SR.

 

For me( I use FAM) I just log it as semen obscured if I am not sure. I have learned a way of testing it though. SR will absorb into the tp fairly quickly, while CM will stay op top and kind of glisten. Also CM will ball up and sink the the bottom of a glass of water, SR will not. Those are two things that I use to try and differentiate the two.

post #28 of 71

Mt_gooseberry, in most methods, whatever is observed the day after intercourse is assumed to be SR.  It is assumed to be a potentially fertile day if there is anything observed or a dry and infertile day if nothing is observed.  The next day, observations are made as they normally would be, and any secretions are assumed to be mucus.  Most women develop an awareness of their own husbands SR (which varies from man to man and changes as his diet changes) and how it interacts with their bodies (which can change at different points in a woman's cycle or in pregnancy/breastfeeding).

 

Butterflymomma, did you have relations on CD 21 or 22?  Your first post said on the day after your temp dip (CD 22), and in then later you said CD 21.  You cannot pinpoint the exact day of ovulation from charting data alone.  This is something that TCOYF does not do a good job of explaining.  It's a probability game.  Yes, the probability is highest that you would ovulate on the day before your temperature rises, but that's not always the case.  It's more likely that you ovulated if your temp spikes way up and less likely that you ovulated yet if you experience a slow rise (like what you experienced initially on CD 18).  It is actually not that uncommon When you determine Peak day, you can be almost certain that you ovulate either on Peak day or up to 3 days before or after.  This is why CM-only rules work so well using the P+4 rule.  It is NOT, as TCOYF would imply, just that it takes 4 days of drying up and/or 3 days of temperature rise to make sure that you're actually drying up or that your temperature is really rising (though by 3 or 4 days into it, you've got a pretty good idea what's going on).  It's that you could actually ovulate and get pregnant on your second day of temp rise or on your 3rd day post-peak.  Cross-checking signs gives you a better idea of when things actually happened.  This is the basis for NFPI's rules that allow you to use fewer days of drying up if your thermal shift is stronger.

 

Looking at your chart, if your sleep was really that bad, it may have affected your temps, and I would mark those days as "potentially disturbed."  On my paper chart, I put a ? in the disturbed section and then play it conservatively... or not as the case may be.  It is interesting, though, as you previously noted, that you do seem to have a dip a few days into your LP, so the dip on CD 21 could be just that.  It could also be an ovulation dip.  I do think that it is reasonably likely that you ovulated on CD 21 since your previous temps were potentially disturbed, that was P+1, and there was a huge temperature spike the next day.  However, it is not that you need to wait 3 or 4 days after ovulation to be safe.  It is that you need to be sure you ovulated to be safe.  If you ovulated on CD 21, the egg is only viable for 12-24 hours, and it takes the sperm some time (often up to 24 hours) to get there.  Therefore, you're really not likely to conceive the day after you ovulate, especially if you wait until the evening.

post #29 of 71

JMJ~ Once again you are a wealth of information.bow2.gif Thanks so much!

 

I actually meant we had relations the day of my temp shift CD21 not CD22. Sorry for the confusion (I am rather confused myself. ) So, I think I inadvertently put myself in the 2ww. I guess we will know soon enough. I usually have a 28-30 day cycle, so only have a few more days to wait.

post #30 of 71
Hi. New.
I have 2 kids. My daughter was born in 2006 and my son in 2010. The last time I had my period was 2005. I got pregnant with my son without having a period. My period finally returned oct. 2011 and has been fairly consistent.
I am a single mom and it's hard but I love it. I have been doing soul searching and a lot of thinking about life and decided that I would start charting and when I learned enough about my cycles/fertility days that I would try for a third. This time though I will be going through the local sperm bank.
I'm not going to mess with a baby daddy...
This charting stuff is proving to be difficult for me. I usually have to go pee around 2-3am so I've been doing the basal digital thermometer.
After talking to one of the counselors, I need to start doing vitamins and stuff to prepare my body. I am still nursing my son who just turned 2.
So other than inseminating myself with donated sperm, I've had hard pregnancies. Both born by emergency c/s and at 32 weeks....crazy to want another in the future?
Here is my chart. I just started this month. Not sure I'm even doing it right. http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/d323c
post #31 of 71

Welcome OneWithTwo! I know the ladies on this forum have helped me a lot with weird charting stuff since my cycles came back after DD. It can be confusing at first - especially when breastfeeding. For me, cervical mucus is the hardest part - mine can be hard to determine sometimes (and I'm a L&D nurse so I feel like I should know this stuff, LOL). Just be sure to temp consistently at the same time, and eventually you should start to recognize a pattern.

 

AFM, this cycle is throwing me for a loop:

 

Here is a link to my chart (Cycle 5) http://www.tcoyf.com/forum/chart.asp?id=jvf1014. I think I fixed it so everyone can see it, but if not let me know.

 

I had a slow temp rise this month, and depending on if I allow the "Rule of Thumb" option or not, I O'd either CD27 or 28 (normal the past few cycles is 21/22).

 

Today is 17dpo, when my longest LP has been 13dpo. Still no sign of spotting/cramping like I normally have before AF. My temp did take a big dip below the coverline this morning (possibly disturbed sleep, I worked last night it wasn't quite 3 full hours of sleep before I took it). I couldn't help myself and took an early pregnancy test anyway: it was the biggest, fattest negative ever.

 

So... I know things can vary a day or two in your luteal phase, but 3/4(+) days seems excessive to me. Any clue (besides pregnancy) on what could cause such a huge jump? I've never had a cyst, to my knowledge anyway, but I don't have any pain or anything like that that would make me think I had one. I did start Metformin again this cycle (around CD23, one week of 500mg then 1000mg daily).  I know it can help in regulating cycles for women that are insulin resistant, but it seems unlikely it would cause this big of a jump this fast.

 

Thoughts??

 

 

post #32 of 71

That is really strange, JenRN.  I don't know enough about the medication you're on to know how it could affect your chart, but any time you're on medication, especially if it's supposed to affect your hormones, I'd be wary of what its affects might be on your cycle.  Perhaps the medication made it look like you ovulated when you didn't, or the slow temp rise could be an indication that ovulation happened a couple days into your temp rise.  The temp drop today could indicate AF is on her way, but if she doesn't show up in the next day or 2 of temps returning to the pre-shift range, it could be that you didn't ovulate yet.

post #33 of 71

Does anyone know of a book that can be purchased that has maybe a year of charts in it for filling in? I know, I could print up a year's worth and bind them myself or something but I need something more organized than the slip of paper on my dishwasher that has the last few months scribble notes on it and I'd happily pay a few $ for something tidy and bound that I could keep by my bed and look back to month to month.  I don't want to chart online and I don't want to have to buy a whole book about FP just to get the charts.  Something like a day planner sized thing would be perfect.

Thanks!

post #34 of 71

Welp, my temps remain above the coverline. Still no AF or sign of her. Part of me thinks that maybe I didn't ovulate until CD37, when I had one instance of EWCM and my temps rose higher (making me 10dpo instead of 18-19).

 

But if that's the case, why would my temps have rose that far before ovulation? And if I haven't even ovulated yet, why would my temps have risen so high? I'm not sick. I've taken Metformin before while charting, and it never affected my temperature, so I doubt it's that (especially since I'm taking a lower dosage now than before).

 

Hmm, the mysteries of the human body. I'll definitely have protected sex the rest of this crazy cycle, and probably take another pregnancy test in a few days just in case. Crazy.

post #35 of 71
JenRN- do you like TCOYF better than FF for charting? I have only ever known about FertilityFriend. FF costs more for a premium membership and the free membership is so limited.
post #36 of 71

OneWithTwo - Overall, I do like the TCOYF software. I got the software free with the book (this was 3 or 4 years ago, not sure if they still do that). I never used FF until we bought a new computer and I decided to start charting again after DD was about 14 months old. I tried the FF free charting and didn't care for it - mostly because it wasn't what I was used to. So I paid for the TCOYF software again. You can chart on their website for free (with ads) or premium membership is like $1.50/month, but I was afraid that if the icon wasn't on my desktop I would forget to update everyday.

 

AKFamily- I'm not sure if a book like that exists or not, but it might be cheaper to just copy/make your own charts and have them bound at a Kinkos or something?? I've never paper charted, but I think if I did I would definitely need a book or something to keep it all organized.

 

I decided that I O'd somewhere in the CD36/37 range, making me 10-11dpo today. It's been an odd cycle for sure, now I'm just hoping all that nakie BD after I thought I O'd the first time won't amount to anything. I still go back and forth about wanting to start TTC again, but DH is definitely no where close to ready for another. Our brief foray into "unprotected sex after confirmed O" has ended until I figure out where I went wrong this time - I thought I knew this stuff, but obviously not.

 

 

 

 

post #37 of 71


I took a look at your chart, Jen, and I agree that must have thrown you for a loop.  The temp rise was quite weak, but it did meet the rules for the most part for a temp shift. Have you considered using cheap OPK's to help pinpoint ovulation? I use cheap ones I got off Amazon.com and I find they help me feel a little more secure about my O day, with all other signs lining up too of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JenRN View Post

OneWithTwo - Overall, I do like the TCOYF software. I got the software free with the book (this was 3 or 4 years ago, not sure if they still do that). I never used FF until we bought a new computer and I decided to start charting again after DD was about 14 months old. I tried the FF free charting and didn't care for it - mostly because it wasn't what I was used to. So I paid for the TCOYF software again. You can chart on their website for free (with ads) or premium membership is like $1.50/month, but I was afraid that if the icon wasn't on my desktop I would forget to update everyday.

 

AKFamily- I'm not sure if a book like that exists or not, but it might be cheaper to just copy/make your own charts and have them bound at a Kinkos or something?? I've never paper charted, but I think if I did I would definitely need a book or something to keep it all organized.

 

I decided that I O'd somewhere in the CD36/37 range, making me 10-11dpo today. It's been an odd cycle for sure, now I'm just hoping all that nakie BD after I thought I O'd the first time won't amount to anything. I still go back and forth about wanting to start TTC again, but DH is definitely no where close to ready for another. Our brief foray into "unprotected sex after confirmed O" has ended until I figure out where I went wrong this time - I thought I knew this stuff, but obviously not.

 

 

 

 



 

post #38 of 71

I must say, it's at least comforting to have other experienced NFP users confused by my chart! Makes me feel less like a dingus. orngbiggrin.gif

 

I have a ClearBlue Easy Fertility Monitor from when I was trying to conceive DD. I loaned it out to a friend, but I did find a box of monitor sticks the other day I had forgotten to give her. Maybe I'll try those out. Anything to make things more clear from this point on! I'm also hoping that by working on my insulin resistance with medication (hence the Metformin) and diet/exercise, that my chart will start to get "prettier" and easier to interpret.

 

AKfamily - I was thinking about your question, and found a workbook on Amazon called "Honoring Our Cycles" by Katie Singer. It's not too expensive, and has good reviews. The first reviewer mentions that the specific reason she purchased the book was so she wouldn't have to print off charts and bind them herself.

post #39 of 71

AKfamily, the only place I know that sells sympto-thermal charts is the Couple to Couple League.  However, their charting method is a little different than TCOYF.

 

JenRN, I'm still puzzling over your chart as well.  Speaking of different rules, you fit the rules for TCOYF (at least until your CM came back), but the rules for CCL and NFPI require a .4 F temperature rise (defined as the high temperature level).  It's safest to wait until you have 3 days at the HTL, but if all the other signs are adding up, you can assume infertility when you at least reach the HTL, which you don't get with a valid temp until CD 33, 6 days into your temp rise as you have it currently marked.  This could be a sign that you ovulated a few days into your temp rise, but you'd think you'd have a period or a positive pregnancy test by now, and the temps after don't really stay at or above the "HTL" either.

 

Another thing to note is that your cover line seems to be pretty consistent at 97.8 in your previous cycles.  It's not common for a cover line to move very much at all, usually not more than about .1 or .2 F between cycles.  If we're looking for a CL at about 97.8, CD 36-37 seems like a pretty good guess as to when you ovulated, given temperature rise and peak day.  I think it's a very good chance, but I'm still somewhat skeptical given that you don't have a very good temperature rise there either.  You're really looking for most of your post-O temperatures to be at or above 98.1, and you just don't see that.

 

On top of that, your CM doesn't stay away.  Other possible ovulation dates to consider are CD 41 or CD 44, but there are reasons those don't make sense either.  It's not common to have such high temperatures before ovulation, and why isn't your temperature staying up when you have such a great history of it rising quickly and staying up?

 

One last theory to consider is that you may not have ovulated yet.  Up and down temperatures can be a sign of not ovulating yet, and so can mucus patches.  It seems strange that your cycle would go so out of whack when you've had such nice cycles recently, but it's a possibility to consider.

 

Sorry, no answers, just more ideas.  Of course you have to assume that any of these possibilities could be true, so you're being conservative about assuming fertility until you've proven otherwise.  I hope things get figured out soon.

post #40 of 71

JMJ- That's good to know about the required 0.4 temp rise, TCOYF just says that it's usually at least 0.2 degrees. I'll definitely keep that in mind for next time. I thought the small temp rise where TCOYF thought I O'd was too slight, but then I read about slow thermal shifts and just thought it was that. I should have just went with my guy instead of trusting the software. irked.gif

 

I'm still not entirely conviced I O'd on CD36-37, but I was tired of looking at the stupid "pregnant" chickie symbol on my chart so I just overrode the earlier calculation. So confusing! I appreciate the different theories. I think I need to read up on some other Natural Family Planning methods, since my cycles don't seem regular/ideal enough for TCOYF. Any suggestions??

 

 

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