I am trying to decide whether to circumcise

[LaneyMeyer]

So, I am new to Mothering but I'm pregnant and am having a boy. I'm trying to decide whether or not to circumcise. We're not religious, but I want him to look like his father, who is circumcised. I have done a lot of reading on the internet and am pretty convinced that there's no medical reason to circumcise. In fact, I found a blog post on this that I wanted to share. She says that there's really no evidence to support circumcising.

http://www.squintmom.com/?p=442

The thing is, though, I don't know if I believe that circumcision is really harmful. It just doesn't seem like with most of the men in the US walking around circumcised and they're not complaining (it seems like it's women who freak out about it more than men), is it really a problem?

[mamaofthree]

if there is no medical reason to do a cosmetic surgery on your infant just a day old, why would you? if later when he is big he wants to get cic'd that would be his choice, but to do it to an infant who has no say and has nothing the matter with him... why? so he looks like someone else? will you clip his ears if they look different? or some other drastic un-nneeded procedure so he looks like everyone else?

[hlg1212]

Honestly, I do think that a lot of men are in denial about the complications that they do have or are not even aware that they are complications of their circumcision.  My DH is circumcised, but my 3 sons are not, and over the past few years, my DH has become increasingly aware of his scar from the circumcision and some areas where he has less sensitivity.  He has come to think of circumcision as being harmful even though he does not like to think about his penis that way.  I think it is difficult for men to come to grips with that.  Anyway, he is really thankful that he does not have any major complications (adhesions, skin bridges, painful erections, hairy shaft, ED, etc.) because they are quite common.  He is also really happy that our sons will never have to wonder what they are missing like he does.

[JBaxter]

Part of my son's are circ'd part are not.  I'm chiming with the Intact boys are easier.   When we made the decision  to keep Jack intact I asked my DH when the last time he saw his father naked.  He had no clue so the "look like dad thing" has no bearing here.  Less than half the boys in the US are being circ'd and world wide 80-90% of men are intact.   Circing  is cosmetic and IMO as a mom of both TOTALLY unnecessary done to a newborn.  I regret letting them cut my oldest 3 after researching the WHY's of circing.  Jack is 3 and retracts has had ZERO issues. The way I look it is if he has the burning desire to remove his fore skin  he can choose to do it and I'll support him.   I have done a 180 in my parenting views.  He was born with it for a reason and who am I to make a decission to remove a part of his little body.   One of the OB's in the practice I now go to refuses to do circs he said they are cruel and unnecssary (THAT coming from a DR.)

[philomom]

Here's two that I like and sum up how we came to our decision.

http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/how-male-circumcision-impacts-your-love.html

Once you really know...... there's no way you'd do this to your sons!

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by LaneyMeyer 

So, I am new to Mothering but I'm pregnant and am having a boy. I'm trying to decide whether or not to circumcise...

I want him to look like his father, who is circumcised.

...pretty convinced that there's no medical reason to circumcise...

The thing is, though, I don't know if I believe that circumcision is really harmful. It just doesn't seem like with most of the men in the US walking around circumcised and they're not complaining (it seems like it's women who freak out about it more than men), is it really a problem?

Good for you to research this decision carefully.  Let me offer some thoughts on the points you have brought up.

Why do you want him to look like his father?  How far are you willing to go to do that?  His father will be taller, hairier, etc.  Which of those will you try to do?  Will you insist that his father shave his face and pubic area, for instance?

I was circumcised, I kept my two son's intact.  It did not cause any problems whatsoever. 

I was circumcised and my two younger brothers were not.  No problems whatsoever.

If there is no medical reason to circumcise, and you, as a parent are supposed to be acting in the best interest of your son, what would the rational be to have him circumcised?  What would be worth the pain and suffering?

Men who are circumcised as infants simply have no idea what they are missing.  Nor do their wives.  So yes, everything seems fine to them.  I was in that same boat.  circumcised and you could not have convinced me that having a foreskin would add much.  Sex felt amazingly good, best feeling possible.

Now I am mostly restored.  I have had sex as a circumcised man and as an intact man.  My wife has had sex with me circumcsied and intact.  There is no comparison.  Sex with a foreskin is so much better for both of us that it is amazing.  And she was a doubting thomas.  Now she is a strong supporter that is  appalled anyone would RIC.

PM me if you want to have specifics of what has changed and how it feels, they don't seem to like things getting too graphic here.

regards

[mamasgirls]

My biggest thing is that he is not going to look like his dad anyway.  Penises don't look the same anyway- but a child and an adult, whether circ'd or intact, look nothing alike.  Size, hair, etc.  So if looking like his dad means when your son is an adult- well, I think you could ask any adult when the last time they compared penises with their father- and I think you would not find many (if any) that do.  My DH has no idea if his dad is circ'd or intact.  My father did not learn his father was intact until recently.  I think we put more emotion in to this decision that needs to be there.  Your husband went through a cosmetic surgical procedure at a time that most baby boy's in the US had the procedure.  So now your son needs a cosmetic sugical procedure just because your husband did?  I don't understand why, if the topic came up, you could not explain to your son that when daddy was a baby he had part of his penis cut off, but now we have learned and know more and did not feel it was necessary to also cut off part of yours.   I don't get the "family tradition" thing.  I realize most babies in the 60's, 70's and 80's had it done, but is not the case any more.   There are SO complications that can happen.   Your son will be born perfect.  There is no need to alter him during the first hours or weeks of his life.  It is your son's penis, not yours or your husbands.  Let him decide if he would like his foreskin or not :)

Edited by mamasgirls - 2/1/12 at 7:23pm

[jocelyndale]

The Whole Network has compiled a number of published studies which detail issues with circumcision and circumcision studies:

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2012/01/medical-research-studies-on-circumcision.html

While TWN is biased in favor of intact genitals, the empirical research has been published in a variety of journals.

I encourage my cut husband to love his body as it is.  But we also recognize the problems which exist as a result of his neonatal circumcision.  There are many complications to circumcision and they don't all show up immediately.  It's hard to talk about these things in a public forum because it's not *my* privacy at issue.  I've talked to lots of mom friends frankly about sex and I think there are probably a lot more long-term side effects of circumcision than the powers that be are willing to acknowledge.

Leaving our son intact and whole was a no brainer for us.  There's no harm in an intact foreskin.  And the thought of doing our best to be gentle attached parents really doesn't allow for the initial trauma of foreskin removal.

[nd_deadhead]

Welcome, Laney! Like the others, I'm glad you're thinking about this now.

Because circumcision is so prevalent in the US, people have a tendency to think "Why not circumcise?", whgen the more logical question is "Why should we?"

You've already answered that question for yourself - there is no valid medical reason to do it. If you dig a little deeper, you will learn that circumcision - like any operation - has risks. Some sources, like the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) downplay the risks - and still come to the conclusion that the benefits do not outweigh the risks.

Is circumcision harmful? Well, we all know men who don't seem to have any problems. But does that mean there is no harm done? My MIL lost the end of her pinky finger when she was in her 50's (my DH remembers the accident). She doesn't experience "phantom pain", and since she no longer plays the piano, she gets along just fine without it - and it's one less fingernail she has to trim. Does that mean that her pinky finger was worthless, or that she didn't suffer harm? Those of us that have all our fingers sure wouldn't willingly give one up! Just because a lot of men "get along just fine" wothout their foreskin, doesn't mean that they haven't been harmed - just like my MIL and her finger.

So how often do you talk to men about their penises? We've had posts from a number of people here who are themselves, or their DH is unhappy about being circumcised, and some men suffer serious complications. I once knew a woman on-line whose hubby could barely maintain an erection, because he had so much foreskin removed that an erection caused him pain and bleeding. They were lucky to be able to conceive one child, and were unable to conceive another, because of his circumcision complications. Many doctors today tend to err on the side of removing less foreskin rather than more, because of the prevelance of such problems. Obviously this doesn't happen to everyone - but how many have to suffer for it to count? What if it's your son, or your husband? It's one thing to deal with complications from an operation that you need to save or significantly improve your life - it's quite another to have lifelong complecations from an unnecessary operation.

"To look like Daddy" is a pretty silly reason to perform surgery on an infant. Would you sign your infant daughter up for a boob job, or labiplasty, so she "looks like Mom"? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But that's exactly what is suggested by circumcising an infant to "look like Dad". If a man wants his genitals to look like his young son's, all he has to do is shave his pubic hair and pack ice in his shorts. My twin sons are 17, and when they were little, they were far more interested in differences in size and hair than they were in whether DH had a foreskin or not.

Here's another way to look at it: My DH has brown eyes, salt-and-pepper hair, and a mustache. Our sons have blue eyes, blond hair, and their attempts at facial hair are pretty pitiful (so far). They hardly look alike at all, in ways that are obvious to anyone looking. Yet the boys have fantastic relationships with their Dad - whether they look alike or not. Why in the world would "matching" penises be important to them?

Best wishes to you on a comfortable pregnancy and a healthy baby! Please don't hesitate to ask any questions you can think of.

[hakunangovi]

nd_deadhead,  I really like your answer.  I, too have never understood the "look like Dad" bit - Are they planning to sit around watching sports with their penises hanging out?

[Erin77]

I always think that argument is funny, too, as if we're going to have our family pictures taken nude so people could be like, "OMG, their penises look different!" Ha! Like I wouldn't look different from a baby daughter who hasn't grown breasts!

[midwifetobe85]

Hi Laney,

I think it's great that you're really researching the issue and trying to make an informed decision. I'll be graduating with my bachelor of science in nursing in a few months and will be starting a masters in midwifery program in the fall. As a student nurse, I've been present a number of circumcisions, even participating (i.e. giving baby pacifier with sugar water, setting up for the physician, etc). I think if more parents could witness circumcision before making the decision, very few would choose to do it. All four of the baby's limbs are strapped down to a plastic board, which in my experience seems to be upsetting experience in and of itself, as the babies often start crying at this point. Horrifyingly, only about half of all physicians use any kind anesthesia. Even when they do use a local anesthetic I'm quite certain that getting the injection into their penis is very painful as the babies almost always scream when it is happening. During the actual circumcision, which involves placing a clamp around the penis, inserting a tool under the foreskin to force it away from the penis and then crushing/pulling the foreskin away - the babies scream so loudly and forcefully they turn purple - and this goes for the babies who received the anesthetic too. This makes sense because the foreskin contains tens of thousands of nerve endings - they feel everything. The procedure is not very fast either - often taking up to a half an hour. The babies usually look like they're in shock once they stop crying. The nurses also don't bring the baby back to the parents until he's wrapped up again and isn't crying. This, I feel, is a terrible practice because it masks how horribly traumatic it is for the infant. 

As a witness of circumcision I feel that I have a responsibility to parents to inform them of the barbaric nature of the practice. If you are still considering it, I encourage you to search the internet for graphic videos of circumcision so that you can see what it really involves. Also, if you want more information explaining why it is neither a medically indicated, nor a benign procedure take a look at http://www.intactamerica.org/. 

Thanks and best of luck with the rest of your pregnancy and your birth! 

[TrumpetMom]

I met a mom recently who has two circ'd boys and one intact. The second was horrible: he hemorraged. And they wouldn't let her nurse or see him for nearly four hours. There are risks to the procedure and children do sometimes bleed a lot. They even die sometimes. Scares the schiznit out of me to think of some of my friends whose boys are circ'd and how they could have lost their kid because of an unnecessary procedure.

Still, it's your decision. Best of luck in your research. Go by your heart, not what others tell you to do.

[A&A]

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

[MichelleZB]

Why does his penis have to match his dad's? Planning on taking cute father/son pantsless photos?

[To-Fu]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

Why does his penis have to match his dad's? Planning on taking cute father/son pantsless photos?

I definitely see your point here, but I think there are probably more effective and less snarky ways to say it (as others have done upthread).

Anyway!  Laney, I'm so glad you're here and questioning.  It's great that you're being thoughtful and trying to figure out what's best for your baby boy.

I like to look at it as an issue of consent.  I wouldn't perform any other unnecessary cosmetic surgery on my child without her/his consent.  I wouldn't allow an equivalent surgery to remove or shorten my daughter's labia.  I wouldn't do these things for a simple reason:  my kid's body, my kid's choice.  

We can't really assume that our kids will care that their external sex organs resemble their parents'.  In fact, I think it's unlikely that they would.  It's certainly not something I have ever heard in my life from other women--and no adult man that I have known or overheard has ever expressed regret or delight at his genitals looking like his father's.  I think when we make that argument, we're projecting and guessing about things that may not be important at all to our kids, and at an enormous cost. 

If, as you say, there is no good reason to do it--literally, there is no medical reason for it at all--then why do it?  Why not just let your son decide what he wants to do with his body, since it's his?  This way you go down the path of "least harm" and you show you respect his body integrity. :)

This site might help you decide:  http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/
 

And this quote from here specifically addresses the common worry of your son looking genitally different from his father:

Myth: "A boy should look like his father. If a boy and his father are different, it would be awkward."

Fact: Keep in mind that the father needn't have been circumcised in the first place. Still, a circumcised father may be concerned that his son will feel uncomfortable being "different" from his dad if he is not circumcised. Don't worry. Many circumcised fathers are raising intact sons without any feelings of awkwardness in father or son. If a boy ever notices and asks why his father is different, the reason is easily explained. A father should teach his son to appreciate and feel good about his own body. Good parenting is an excellent alternative to amputation. Besides, if the father had lost a finger in an accident earlier in his life, would he want to have his son's finger removed to match?

 

Ronald Goldman, Ph.D., author of Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma wrote a letter to the spokesman of the American Academy of Pediatrics on this very subject.

Anyway, even if both father and son have part of their foreskin removed, that doesn't really guarantee their penises will look alike, or that your son will care, right?  Why is it so important that their penises look alike--important enough to have unnecessary cosmetic surgery to make it happen--and not any other body part?  Why is a penis resemblance so important?  It would be unconscionable to cut off part of a baby girl's labia at birth so she resembles her mother, right?  So why would the foreskin be any different?  And why stop with genital resemblance?  I think if you look at it that way, the but-I-want-him-to-look-like-his-father idea will seem as strange as it is.

And here are 10 good reasons not to circumcise:  http://www.intactamerica.org/resources/decision

Best of luck!  I hope you'll come back and let us know how things progress. 

[BananaBreadGirl]

My mom and my grandma both are breast-less (due to real medical problems...cancer). I could certainly survive and be healthy without my breasts. But I'm glad that no-one removed mine at birth to try to make me look like someone else, or to try to avoid medical problems (and I might add that breast cancer is a lot more likely and dangerous than any problems I've ever heard of with the foreskin). Sometimes it's helpful to think of how we make decisions about other body parts...

[rnra]

midwifetobe85:  You and are are following similar education paths.  I have participated as an assistant with hundreds (if not thousands) of circumcisions of newborns in the past year as a part of my job.  I am not pro-circ by any means.  However, I wanted to say that what you have described and what I have observed are quite different.  

Where I work, only the legs are strapped down.  The arms are bundled with a blanket so that they are swaddled.  Lidocaine is used for anesthesia/numbing 100% of the time.  If one of our doctors did circumcision without the lidocaine, they would be fired.  While the circumcision occurs, each baby is given a pacifier (or a gloved finger if the parents don't want a pacifier) and sugar water to encourage sucking and endorphin release.  Very few of them cry--maybe 5-10% of them make more than a peep or two.  Honestly.  Most of them are content to just suck away on the pacifier.  I have never seen a baby cry to the point of turning purple during a circumcision.  We always encourage the parents to come with the infant to the circumcision.  Some of them decline, but at least 90% of the time one or both of the infant's parents are present for the entire process.  The parents are right there in full view of everything.  Their comments are usually, "That was way better/easier than I was anticipating."  

Once again, I am not pro-circ at all.  However, as you can tell between the differences in my experiences and those by midwifetobe85, the environment that the circ is performed in and the practitioner who does the circ can make a huge difference.  

[DoubleDouble]

What if the son's eyes are different in color from his dad? Would you do iris implants on a baby? Risky procedure, but available! (Plus, different eye color is quite noticeable - no one has to take their pants off to reveal it, it's a part of first impression, so iris implants should be even more important.)

Edited by DoubleDouble - 2/12/12 at 6:08pm

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by rnra   Some of them decline, but at least 90% of the time one or both of the infant's parents are present for the entire process.  The parents are right there in full view of everything.  Their comments are usually, "That was way better/easier than I was anticipating."  

Once again, I am not pro-circ at all.  However, as you can tell between the differences in my experiences and those by midwifetobe85, the environment that the circ is performed in and the practitioner who does the circ can make a huge difference.  

Welcome to the board.  I hope you'll stick around.

With that said, I couldn't give a rat's patootey, what the parents think after the circ.  It's not them that had to endure the procedure, no matter how kind it appeared; the babies are the ones who will live their whole lives w/o a part of their anatomy that they very well would have probably wanted to keep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope that some day you will stop participating in circs that are performed on any underage individual who does not have cancer, gangrene or frostbite.    If you are a nurse, you may want to look into the group: Nurses for the Rights of the Child.  http://nurses.cirp.org/  And, here is a video of a nurse explaining why she is a part of the movement towards genital integrity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQiVdAq-U4s

Best wishes,

Sus