I am trying to decide whether to circumcise - Page 3

[Mulvah]

Originally Posted by LaneyMeyer 

I think there's a lot more validity to the "looking like father" argument than you all give credence to. A boy WILL see his father naked early in life (though, obviously, not later on), and he'll develop his early feelings about sexuality and his sex organs from comparing himself to his father. Having a penis that looks like his father's penis is very different than a little girl not having breasts; she can be told she will grow them later, and that they are a distinguishing feature of a mature woman. In the same vein, a boy obviously doesn't have the same size penis as a grown man, but knows he'll get there. A fundamentally different-looking penis, however, can impact his feelings about his genitals. Similarly, having a penis that looks different from those of most of the other boys in the locker room (when he's in school) might make him feel uncomfortable. MOST middle class, white boys are circumcised in the US (whether this is right or not), so uncirc'd boys in that demographic are in the minority. In the end, what bothers me is that circumcision is a much bigger deal for an adult than for an infant, and what if I don't circumcise him and he later wants to have it done?

Please provide resources on what you've stated. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sosurreal09 

With death being a very real possibility I don't see why looking like daddy would matter. So he could look like daddy in a casket? Seriously that may seem harsh but 117 babies DIE and that's an under-estimate (b/c not all are reported as relating to circ even if caused by it) every year in the US for NO REASON.

Not for nothing, but I don't think this tactic is terribly helpful.  Dying in childbirth (even, gasp, homebirth!) is a very real possibility and yet....
 

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by Mulvah 

Not for nothing, but I don't think this tactic is terribly helpful.  Dying in childbirth (even, gasp, homebirth!) is a very real possibility and yet....
 

Yes but once the baby is in there it has to come out!  So the risk of death (which where i am, UK, is the same at home or in hospital anyway) is inherent, unavoidable.  The same cannot be said for the risks associated with the non-medically-necessary cosmetic procedure of removing the foreskin of a newborn infant!

[Mulvah]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

Yes but once the baby is in there it has to come out!  So the risk of death (which where i am, UK, is the same at home or in hospital anyway) is inherent, unavoidable.  The same cannot be said for the risks associated with the non-medically-necessary cosmetic procedure of removing the foreskin of a newborn infant!

Yes, once Baby is there, Baby has to come out.  I won't flesh out all of the very real possibilities that Baby could die during or after birth, but I'll say this, there is a very real possibility you can die driving a car, walking to the store, etc., and scaring someone into avoiding a procedure or activity simply because of the possibility of death is a poor argument, IMO.  Many homebirthers cannot stand hearing the scare tactics, why do it to someone considering circumcision? 

For the record, I don't think this is a sincere thread, but I guess that's neither here nor there. 

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by Mulvah 

Yes, once Baby is there, Baby has to come out.  I won't flesh out all of the very real possibilities that Baby could die during or after birth, but I'll say this, there is a very real possibility you can die driving a car, walking to the store, etc., and scaring someone into avoiding a procedure or activity simply because of the possibility of death is a poor argument, IMO.  Many homebirthers cannot stand hearing the scare tactics, why do it to someone considering circumcision? 

For the record, I don't think this is a sincere thread, but I guess that's neither here nor there. 

In some ways you're preaching to the choir (i AM a homebirther and i agree that "YOUR BABY MIGHT DIE!" is a rubbish argument and shuts people down from listening).  But actually the most recent study where i am (UK) found that death is NOT, as far as they could tell, more likely at home (yes 0.4% increase in complication rate for babies of first time mothers, but "complications covered everything from "needing a little suction" to death and deaths were so rare that they couldn't use the data to figure out if death specifically was more likely at home or not), and though one can die in the car, presumably one was using the car for beneficial/convenient reasons when one took that risk of death.  As in - you want to go to work every day to support your family and by car is the best way to go - the small risk of death is balanced against supporting your family.  But in cosmetic circumcision there are no benefits, so there is nothing to balance the risk against.  You could say "it's worth the risk of death if he looks like his father" but the same COULD be said of neonatal rhinoplasty or similar and i doubt anyone would attempt that rationale.

[Mulvah]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

In some ways you're preaching to the choir (i AM a homebirther and i agree that "YOUR BABY MIGHT DIE!" is a rubbish argument and shuts people down from listening).  But actually the most recent study where i am (UK) found that death is NOT, as far as they could tell, more likely at home (yes 0.4% increase in complication rate for babies of first time mothers, but "complications covered everything from "needing a little suction" to death and deaths were so rare that they couldn't use the data to figure out if death specifically was more likely at home or not), and though one can die in the car, presumably one was using the car for beneficial/convenient reasons when one took that risk of death.  As in - you want to go to work every day to support your family and by car is the best way to go - the small risk of death is balanced against supporting your family.  But in cosmetic circumcision there are no benefits, so there is nothing to balance the risk against.  You could say "it's worth the risk of death if he looks like his father" but the same COULD be said of neonatal rhinoplasty or similar and i doubt anyone would attempt that rationale.

You're free to utilize and rationalize the "dead baby argument" all you want.    I will never think it is a useful or wise tactic in relation to almost any argument of this type - circumcision, elective c-sections, vaccines, homebirth, infant ear piercing, etc.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by Mulvah 

You're free to utilize and rationalize the "dead baby argument" all you want.    I will never think it is a useful or wise tactic in relation to almost any argument of this type - circumcision, elective c-sections, vaccines, homebirth, infant ear piercing, etc.

So do you really not feel there's a difference between things with risks and benefits and things with only risks?  Or do you just think risks of death are never relevant?

[DoubleDouble]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

So do you really not feel there's a difference between things with risks and benefits and things with only risks?  Or do you just think risks of death are never relevant?

Lots of people feel that risks of death are never relevant TO THEM. Oh no, it's never going to happen to them, everything's gonna be fine. Awful things aren't gonna happen to us, to some other people maybe, but not to us and ours.

That's why those types of arguments don't work most of the time.
 

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by Mulvah 

Yes, once Baby is there, Baby has to come out.  I won't flesh out all of the very real possibilities that Baby could die during or after birth, but I'll say this, there is a very real possibility you can die driving a car, walking to the store, etc., and scaring someone into avoiding a procedure or activity simply because of the possibility of death is a poor argument, IMO.  Many homebirthers cannot stand hearing the scare tactics, why do it to someone considering circumcision? 

For the record, I don't think this is a sincere thread, but I guess that's neither here nor there. 

One can die driving a car, walking to the store etc... One can die with or without a foreskin. But choosing circumcision is like walking in the middle of the street thinking: well, I might as well get hit by a car on the sidewalk or when crossing the street, so why bother taking precautions?

It is a fact that circumcision carries the risk of death.

[chachamama]

The whole "we want him to look like his Dad" reason, which is what I most commonly hear, makes absolutely no sense to me. If you have a girl, are you going to get her breast augmentation surgery when she develops so that her breasts look just like her Mamas? Cut or uncut, there is no way a boys penis will look exactly like his dads. Leave them alone, they're perfect.

[imgr8ful]

how about just leave his perfectly normal body alone and let him decide if he wants to match dad or classmates.  it's his body, he should decide what he wants his penis to look like.

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by LaneyMeyer 

I think there's a lot more validity to the "looking like father" argument than you all give credence to. A boy WILL see his father naked early in life (though, obviously, not later on), and he'll develop his early feelings about sexuality and his sex organs from comparing himself to his father. Having a penis that looks like his father's penis is very different than a little girl not having breasts; she can be told she will grow them later, and that they are a distinguishing feature of a mature woman.

I have not read all responses but you seem to miss that an intact penis -will- look like a circumcised penis when retracted or erect. A basic explanation of anatomy can clear up some of this angst you seem to feel a boy might have about differences. He then can appreciate that in addition to having a penis 'like daddy' his penis has a covering that is sensitive and has its own purpose- gliding action , sensitivity etc.

Jess

[jessjgh1]

As for risks, it is just as likely that a circumcised child will need a 2nd corrective surgery to fix circumcision problems as it is that a child left intact in North America might need to be circumcised in their lifetime.

Check circ complications such as adhesions, meatal stenosis and sexual problems that don't manifest to puberty or later- none of these are considered in the stats for circumcision complications because they do not happen directly after the procedure.

I hope you can keep asking questions about this issue

Jessica

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by jessjgh1 

As for risks, it is just as likely that a circumcised child will need a 2nd corrective surgery to fix circumcision problems as it is that a child left intact in North America might need to be circumcised in their lifetime.

Jessica

I think what you say here may actually be worse than that.  From what I've heard about mainstream boards, etc., many boys end up having second & more surgeries to "correct" things after prepuce amputation.  I read on here that in a non-circing country, very few men die w/out their foreskins (Finland, maybe?  Something like 1 in 10,000 will die w/o his foreskin?  It's from memory, which ain't what it used to be!).  So, I believe that the rate of re-dos & corrective surgeries are far greater than the number of truly needed circ's on boys who are spared the knife at birth (because, remember the only medically indicated reasons for circ are gangrene, cancer & frostbite).  :-(

Sus
 

[JollyGG]

Originally Posted by LaneyMeyer 

I think there's a lot more validity to the "looking like father" argument than you all give credence to. A boy WILL see his father naked early in life (though, obviously, not later on), and he'll develop his early feelings about sexuality and his sex organs from comparing himself to his father. Having a penis that looks like his father's penis is very different than a little girl not having breasts; she can be told she will grow them later, and that they are a distinguishing feature of a mature woman. In the same vein, a boy obviously doesn't have the same size penis as a grown man, but knows he'll get there. A fundamentally different-looking penis, however, can impact his feelings about his genitals. Similarly, having a penis that looks different from those of most of the other boys in the locker room (when he's in school) might make him feel uncomfortable. MOST middle class, white boys are circumcised in the US (whether this is right or not), so uncirc'd boys in that demographic are in the minority. In the end, what bothers me is that circumcision is a much bigger deal for an adult than for an infant, and what if I don't circumcise him and he later wants to have it done?

Here's the thing - not all circumcised penises look the same. When we were considering this issue my Mom told me that at one point she had to explain to my brothers why theirs didn't look like each others. They were done by different doctors who had slight style differences. I'm assuming they didn't look like my Dad's either though the thing they questioned was looking like each other. I suspect that brothers are more likely to compare penises than father and son.

Some doctors leave more skin some leave less. There are also several different ways to perform a circumcision that leave a slightly different look and different doctors prefer different methods. It's hard to judge on an infant how much skin that person will need as an adult erect male. So, doctors do leave skin for the boy to grow into. This means that, once again, it won't look like Dad's.

A good friend got her son circumcised and it's much looser than they did at the time that her husband got his done. For a matter of fact she was asking me the other day how I kept my son clean when he was a baby as she was having tons of issues with stuff getting under the leftover foreskin. I had to explain that while both our son's had some foreskin my son's also had a sphincter on the end that made this a non issue for us as my son is intact. She's also had to deal with adhesions and other issues we didn't

So basically you may end up having a conversation about differences in look regardless of what you do. I'd rather tell my son "We cut part of your penis off so you'd match Daddy, but they didn't get it quite right", or "They thought it was necessary to cut of part of a boys penis when your Dad was a baby, but we learned that it really isn't, so they didn't do that to you". I know which of those two statements my (now 8 year old) son would want to hear.

If he does want circumcised later in life he can get it done at a time when they know the true eventual size of his penis allowing them to do a better job (making it cosmetically look better), when he's not wearing diapers to get feces on it, and when he can have more effective pain medication.

With circumcision rates changing quickly approaching much less than 50% in many parts of the country it is actually far more likely that if anyone is going to be teased in the locker room it will be the boy missing his foreskin than it is to be the boy with one.

[puddle]

Originally Posted by LaneyMeyer 

 In the end, what bothers me is that circumcision is a much bigger deal for an adult than for an infant, and what if I don't circumcise him and he later wants to have it done?

This has always confused me.  I can't imagine why it would be no big deal for an infant to go through such a difficult and painful surgery.  When I held my sweet little boy in my arms, the idea of sending him away from me to have body parts cut off was so abhorrent to me.  All I wanted him to know was peace and love, not fear and pain.  Even if I knew for a fact that he was going to need this done for some bizarre reason as an adult, there is no way that I could sacrifice my infant son for my adult son.  I trust my adult son.  He'll be strong enough to handle whatever comes his way.  Because I'm his mama, and I will teach him with my strength.  His first lesson was the strength it took for me to fight to keep him intact.  I'm not afraid of him wanting it done for cosmetic reasons, because I will teach him to love and honor his body.  I will teach him to cherish himself and others just the way they are.  I will teach him to be himself and stand up for what he knows is right rather than compromise himself and his values to conform with others.  I could never teach him these things if his first lesson was for his own mama to reject his body at birth to the point of cosmetic surgery.  Whatever you choose to do with your son, it is his first life lesson.  Make sure you are comfortable with the lifelong implications of this lesson.

And as for the matching penises, my son very rarely sees his father's penis, although I realize this is different in other families.  He sees his young friends' penises more often, and, many of them are intact.  And, FWIW, my son LOVES his penis. 

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by puddle 

This has always confused me.  I can't imagine why it would be no big deal for an infant to go through such a difficult and painful surgery.  When I held my sweet little boy in my arms, the idea of sending him away from me to have body parts cut off was so abhorrent to me.  All I wanted him to know was peace and love, not fear and pain.  Even if I knew for a fact that he was going to need this done for some bizarre reason as an adult, there is no way that I could sacrifice my infant son for my adult son.  I trust my adult son.  He'll be strong enough to handle whatever comes his way.  Because I'm his mama, and I will teach him with my strength.  His first lesson was the strength it took for me to fight to keep him intact.  I'm not afraid of him wanting it done for cosmetic reasons, because I will teach him to love and honor his body.  I will teach him to cherish himself and others just the way they are.  I will teach him to be himself and stand up for what he knows is right rather than compromise himself and his values to conform with others.  I could never teach him these things if his first lesson was for his own mama to reject his body at birth to the point of cosmetic surgery.  Whatever you choose to do with your son, it is his first life lesson.  Make sure you are comfortable with the lifelong implications of this lesson.

And as for the matching penises, my son very rarely sees his father's penis, although I realize this is different in other families.  He sees his young friends' penises more often, and, many of them are intact.  And, FWIW, my son LOVES his penis. 

Me too.  I can think of a LOT of physical things i've had to "go through" (teeth extracted, first sexual intercourse, VE's during pregnancy/labour, broken bones to name but a few) which were hard. I wouldn't volunteer my newborn for any of them!

[jessjgh1]

Originally Posted by mama24-7 

I think what you say here may actually be worse than that.  From what I've heard about mainstream boards, etc., many boys end up having second & more surgeries to "correct" things after prepuce amputation.  I read on here that in a non-circing country, very few men die w/out their foreskins (Finland, maybe?  Something like 1 in 10,000 will die w/o his foreskin?  It's from memory, which ain't what it used to be!).  So, I believe that the rate of re-dos & corrective surgeries are far greater than the number of truly needed circ's on boys who are spared the knife at birth (because, remember the only medically indicated reasons for circ are gangrene, cancer & frostbite).  :-(

Sus
 

I totally agree- but I didn't want to haggle on figures that are SO widely used by supposedly unbiased medical sources (AAP and even Canadian  use this figure). The  figure is still significant.  I did specify North America- and I think I had to cut my post short at the time- so it was more ambiguous than I mean (see what happens when things are cut)..

But sadly, the stat is probably fairly accurate to the areas which are not treating the intact penis as normal-- it just should NOT be that high.  And despite that they are still only creating more problems than the ones this is supposed to be solving- but families THINK they are preventing things.

So frustrating.... especially when you have an intact child and just think.... what the heck..... 

[Lucy&Jude'sMama]

My son is intact. His dad (my partner) is not. My partner never had a problem with his penis because he NEVER KNEW WHAT HE WAS MISSING! Think about it? Adult men who were circumcised as infants... why would they complain? They don't remember having an intact penis. 

Since doing our research on circumcision my partner became aware of what he was missing. We both started understanding the natural male anatomy which just made us both extremely angry at the injustice of routine infant circumcision. We have been working to restore his foreskin... a slow process but one we've made fun by turning it into a... mmmm... wait the rest is probably best left to the 'sex talk forum'... Anyways point is I'm helping him and we have made a little progress. Just the little bit we have done and the... ahem.. way we do it... Using what "foreskin" he has left... his pleasure went from "ooo that feels good" to "OMG BABE DONT STOP! OMG THATS AMAZING! IS THAT WHAT I'VE BEEN MISSING!!! AHHHH! WHY WOULD ANYONE TAKE THIS AWAY FROM ME! THIS IS AMAZING!!!" LOL! Ok that's not word for word what he said but the consensus was that "being circumcised as an infant was not MY choice and it just plain sucks" (his words). 

My vote... Don't do it. 

I'm not against circumcision. If your son wants to be circumcised when he is older and able to make the decision for himself. By all means! Have at it. I'm against the routine cutting of perfectly healthy and normal male and female genitalia. 

[Lucy&Jude'sMama]

oops double post!

[bugmenot]

Originally Posted by Lucy&Jude'sMama 

My son is intact. His dad (my partner) is not. My partner never had a problem with his penis because he NEVER KNEW WHAT HE WAS MISSING! Think about it? Adult men who were circumcised as infants... why would they complain? They don't remember having an intact penis. 

Unfortunately, I think this is one of the "reasons" to do it, as oft-quoted.

"It's better to do it when he's a baby, because he won't remember it."

Many people who are circumcised have no problem with being circumcised because they don't look into it, and as far as they know, it works "normally", so why should they investigate what they're supposedly missing?

Yuck.