How do you handle unveg*n story times, books, art classes, etc.?

[MrsSlocombe]

As a nanny, I've spent a lot of time attending library story times and art and music classes with toddlers and preschoolers.  One thing I have noticed is that a strongly unvegan theme can pop out unexpectedly at such events.  As a nanny, there was no problem except a slight discomfort for me, since the kids were not vegan, but it made me sad to think of what will happen when I have my own kids.

For example, I once took a child to story time and found that the theme of the day was zoos.  I imagine that this will happen again and again, as parents in my area seem to love zoos.  (I say "parents," because I've never really heard a small child express a great love for them, except the rides.  Our local zoo has a hot air balloon, a train, and other rides.)  The librarian called out, "Who here loves the zoo?!" in a happy voice.  I can easily imagine a child raising his or her hand just to fit in.

Music circles could include songs about zoos, hot dogs, or even hunting.

Art classes could easily include projects about zoos or circuses.

I am sure most people will say I'm overthinking this, but having been in the exact position before, I still don't know what I would do with my own child.  For example, in story time, if I walk in to see that every book is going to be about zoos, would I just take my child and walk out, or would this seem unfair or anti-social?  (Obviously, I wouldn't walk out over just one mention of something unvegan, but if the entire day's theme is unvegan, then...?)

Have you found yourself in a similar situation?  What did you do, or what would you do?

[dbsam]

We are not vegan, but we are l/o veg, we are not fans of zoos, and we really try to minimize the negative effect our lives have on animals.

My children are 7, and it hasn’t been a big problem.  If something is read or said that we disagree with we talk about it afterwards.  Last year my children’s class went to a large commercial dairy in our area.  I debated not allowing them to go but then I felt they should see what it was like.  It was horrible, and we wouldn’t go again, but I guess it was good for them to see and understand what happens.  I didn’t go on and on with my ‘issues’ with the dairy since they already tend to pick up on things and get sad.  I figure it is difficult for me at 47 to handle some of these issues and I need to remember what they can handle – they are very sensitive.  (Does that make sense?)  They noticed things and brought them to my attention and we talked about it.  (e.g.  We saw calves being born, the dairy mentioned where the girl calves go and my children asked what happens to the boy calves.  This is a struggle for us anyway since we eat dairy.  We've discussed it since they were little becuase we try to use local, more humane, dairy sources.)

My husband and I disagree a little.  I never wanted to take them to a zoo, Seaworld type place, or even the aquarium – especially since it has a dolphin and whale show.  He felt it was best to expose them to it so they have a better understanding and can start to form their own ideas.  We’ve sort of met in the middle.  They have been to the aquarium – once.  But there is a local zoo and apple orchard with animals that I will not take my children to even if it is a class trip.   There is no reason and I will not support those businesses.

My children have taken many classes at the local art galleries but have never had a project/lesson that was an issue.

So, to answer your question, you could use the experience to talk to your children about your beliefs.  Afterall, they will be living in a mostly non-vegan world and will be exposed to these issues throughout their lives.

Also, I think people are becoming more sensitive to veganism.

Their current school is very veg*n friendly which helps – actually all their teachers are veg*n.  Their daily snacks have vegan options, there are other veg*n children in the class, etc.  The school put on a Thanksgiving feast and included vegan turkey, etc.

Their previous school  had l/o veg lunch choices but they were told in school that you need to eat meat to get enough protein.  My children, at age 6, already knew this was not true.

Hope my rambling helped a little

[DoubleDouble]

Originally Posted by MrsSlocombe 

For example, I once took a child to story time and found that the theme of the day was zoos.  I imagine that this will happen again and again, as parents in my area seem to love zoos.  (I say "parents," because I've never really heard a small child express a great love for them, except the rides.  Our local zoo has a hot air balloon, a train, and other rides.)  The librarian called out, "Who here loves the zoo?!" in a happy voice.  I can easily imagine a child raising his or her hand just to fit in.

Here is a not-too-serious link from FailBlog that I have bookmarked, about children and the zoo. And one about Thanksgiving.

I'm not vegan (I hope it was ok to post this here), but I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

[MrsSlocombe]

Dbsam, thanks for your reply!  I agree with your decision to go ahead and check out the dairy with your kids, and sure, I understand not wanting to make them any sadder than they are.  I guess what I'm afraid of is saying so little that they just cheer along for the zoo with the rest of the crowd, and don't have any moral sense about it at all.

It sounds like you've found an amazing school!  How did you find it?

I have to say I disagree with your husband.  I don't think children have to be allowed to to explore the dark side, at least not by directly participating in it, e.g. patronizing aquariums.  I suppose they could be allowed to read books or watch TV shows about it.  We'd never let our kids experiment with cheating on tests or hitting other children, so they can decide what they think about those things.  Treatment of animals doesn't seem any different.

[MrsSlocombe]

Originally Posted by DoubleDouble 

Here is a not-too-serious link from FailBlog that I have bookmarked, about children and the zoo. And one about Thanksgiving.

I'm not vegan (I hope it was ok to post this here), but I'll be watching this thread with great interest.

Thanks, those were cute!  I wouldn't say the child artist in the first link was "pessimistic," but I suppose it says something about how people choose to view things.

Oh, I am sorry if I implied that I only wanted to hear from vegans.  I put "veg*n" in the subject line, meaning vegan or vegetarian, but then I switched to "vegan" and stuck with it for some reason.  I'm sorry;  I do want to hear from anyone who can relate to this issue.

[dbsam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrsSlocombe 

It sounds like you've found an amazing school!  How did you find it?

I have to say I disagree with your husband.  I don't think children have to be allowed to to explore the dark side, at least not by directly participating in it, e.g. patronizing aquariums.  I suppose they could be allowed to read books or watch TV shows about it.  We'd never let our kids experiment with cheating on tests or hitting other children, so they can decide what they think about those things.  Treatment of animals doesn't seem any different.

Well, the school was a huge ordeal/dilemma for us.  To summarize, I spent years organizing an environmental charter school with a few other people.  My children attended last year and we determined it wasn't the right fit for us after all.  It is a good school and only in its second year so who knows where it will end up.  I just saw it going in a direction I didn't like and I felt I was not able to change the direction – even as a board member (not enough integration of environmental learning, a lot of emphasis on test scores, rewards and punishments, etc.)  Anyway, now we are back in a private Montessori school and so far it is a much better fit for us on many levels.  The school also celebrates the uniqueness of the children...including their families decisions to be veg*n, atheist, Jewish, etc.  We are also lucky that the teachers are very compassionate – towards the children and all living creatures.  I am not sure if that is a ‘Montessori thing’ or if we are just lucky to have these teachers.

I like your analogy about cheating and will be using it when people tell me my children ‘need’ to experience eating meat.  I probably didn't explain my husband's position accurately.  He doesn't want them to see horrible things and does not want to support organizations that abuse animals.  However, he was the one who talked me into taking the children to the dairy – partly so they could understand why we do not buy certain dairy products.  He also wanted them to see a zoo...once...and we talked with them about it afterwards.  He chose the zoo that he felt was the most humane in our area and after the day said he sort of regretted it.  He is sometimes concerned that we might make all of our 'issues' theirs without giving them the tools to make those decisions themselves when they are older instead of blindly following our beliefs...sort like what many families do with religion.  On one hand we feel like it is our job as parents to instill our beliefs; on the other hand, we want children who, as adults, fully understand what they believe and why and are knowledgeable about the other viewpoints.   But then, back to your analogy...I guess we just explain things like fair-trade issues and not show them firsthand the circumstances so why do it differently with the animals?

Regarding your fear of saying too little...It is amazing how little we need to say.  We rarely, if ever, say we are doing this because of 'blah, blah blah'.  They just see how we live, they ask questions and we answer.  They really start noticing and forming their opinions quite young.  I also see them struggle a little.  e.g.  Last year their school had a games day and one of the games was who could eat a marshmallow hanging off a string the fastest.  My son, who is very shy, decided not to participate because he knew we do not eat gelatin - which was difficult for him to say since he is a rule follower who doesn't like to stand out.  OTOH, my daughter told me she really wanted to play and didn't really want to eat the marshmallow...she struggled and decided to play.   At parties, my children have just avoided the non-vegetarian food/snacks and all is fine.  I've learned to feed them prior to going!  It will be a little more difficult being vegan but it is doable.  When people push them, they are actually proud to be veggie and are not bothered by the comments of others.  We've also attended Vegetarian Fesitavals and are lucky to know other veg*n's which is nice.

HTH, I have a bit of a headache today so I feel like I am not completely making sense.

[MrsSlocombe]

Wow, Dbsam, here I am just hoping a school will be handed to me, and you worked on starting one for seven years.  It sounds like the school has some potential, and may be a good alternative for those families who can't afford private school.  I think we are one of those families (not that we live in your area, of course), but I'm considering looking into scholarships if I can find a good private school.  My experience with Montessori is limited, so I'll have to see if one of the local ones might be especially vegan-friendly.

Now that I understand your husband's philosophy a little better, I am more sympathetic towards it, though you should still feel free to use my analogy.  I didn't understand before that he wanted to make the "dark side" visits one-time things, with plenty of explanations and an understanding by everybody that they are exploring something negative.  I somehow got that he was hesitant to teach the kids values regarding animals, but I now see that that is far from the case.  I'm on the fence now that I understand.  I don't want my child to be ignorant, but nor do I want him/her to drown in negativity.  It sounds like you guys are doing well.

You know, your children seem similar to others of vegan parents, whom I've heard from on this site.  Do you think it's the case that children naturally want to adopt their families' philosophies, and only need a little help understanding what they are?  My experience with children has been as a nanny - sometimes very emotionally close, and in other cases, not - and none of the children I've cared for seemed amenable to ethical veganism.  At most, some of the children enjoyed the vegan food I shared because they liked the taste, but knowing I was vegan, they would openly say that they weren't, that they didn't care about animals, etc.  Of course, if I were their actual Mom, I would have pushed (nay, required) it instead of just saying, "This is who I am, and this is why I eat this instead of that."  I suppose they were just adopting their parents philosophies, as may be natural.

[heatherr30]

I don't have any experience raising kids vegan /vegetarian but I wanted to chime in as I find this all very interesting.

I live in Germany where swear words, beer and cigarettes, sex etc are normal topics not necessarily to be avoided even around children.  DD attended a music group where one of the songs was about drinking beer.  I found that a little funny, to see kids, who dont drink beer themselves, singing about it.  DD would not even try beer if offered because she knows it is for "daddys" (I dont drink it myself) but she was happy to sing and dance to the beer song.  I imagine a song about hot dogs, to a vegan kid, would be much the same--just an opportunity to have fun without the child thinking too hard about the meaning behind the words.

To compare, we are church-goers but to a certain extent I tolerate games/songs/books which have pagan topics--fairies, devils, Greek gods in mythology, or whatever.  I think kids know that it is just a book or song, and I dont want to exclude my family from society (to the contrary, I believe that if you want to share a faith or philosophy with others then you have to live among them!)  Of course, if I walked in and the teacher was conducting a mock worship session to fairies, I would probably feel uncomfortable and leave.  Obviously, that is not going to happen, but it could easily happen that you and your kids show up and it is "ice cream making day" or something else against your principles and you would prefer to leave rather than exclude your child from eating the end result.

I think if it was just a song or game I would probably follow my childs lead as to whether they seemed comfortable joining in or not.  If it was making my child uncomfortable I would take them out in the hallway for a few min and talk, or just leave altogether. Different kids, at different ages, might have different limits of what they can tolerate and understand.

At DDs kindergarten there are a lot of kids from other cultures which don't eat pork and there are also kids who have food allergies.  The teachers have a list of what these kids are/aren't allowed to eat and I believe they try to follow it to the best of their ability.   I dont think there are any vegetarians but Im sure these food choices would also be respected altho maybe that kid would have to bring their own lunch as there are not enough vegetarians to justify the kitchen cooking a special meal.  I also think if you have any concerns in a play group, school setting, etc about songs about zoos, dairy and meat, hunting, or whatever that you could have a quiet word with the teacher at the beginning so he/she would be more sensitive to that and possibly let you know in advance if the topic would be about zoos, for example.  I think you would have to be as specific as possible which topics would be inappropriate or offensive to you, because some people dont know a lot about veganism.  I think most teachers would be sensitive to what offends the group.  If the teacher wasnt, I would find a new play group.

[MrsSlocombe]

Thanks, Heatherr30, it was really interesting to hear your perspective!  You know, it's funny, because we are not religious, but I have occasionally thought, "You know, I should ask a religious person what they do, since the situation is somewhat similar."  There are probably more Christians in Germany than there are vegans in my area, but some of the basic problems are the same.  Maybe it would be good to say something like, "It's okay to SING about hot dogs, just not to EAT hot dogs."

You've also gotten me thinking about other people with non-mainstream diets, such as those you mention who don't eat pork or have allergies.  I think diversity does benefit minorities, even when the minorities are not closely related to each other.  For example, I went to an elementary school with what seemed like a pretty even mix of Jewish and Christian students;  as a non-religious person, this was a more comfortable environment for me than my high school, which was more heavily Christian, with very few Jewish or other religious minority students.  This isn't because I was more like the Jewish students than the Christian ones, but just because having a mixture reminded everyone that opinions differ and no one religion or philosophy could dominate.  Applied to diet, if I found an environment for my child in which there were some Muslim kids, who don't eat pork, some Hindu kids, who may be vegetarian or at least not eat beef, some all-organic or sugar-free kids, etc., I think this would be beneficial.

That's a good point about asking the teacher, playgroup leader, etc., in advance about topics.  I don't even have to make a strong request that the class or group be vegan-friendly, depending on the situation;  if it's something that we're just dropping in on, I can call in advance to ask the topic out of a neutral curiousity.