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What happens when the parents cant agree?

post #1 of 39
Thread Starter 

What happens when you and your husband can't agree. Like literally there is no way to convince him otherwise? Do you take the matter to court? Risk an otherwise awesome marriage and kindly ask him to step off? 

 

Has anyone had to battle in court over it? who won? 

 

 Even if it's an elective procedure could it be construed as denying Medical care?

 

 

post #2 of 39
The big problem with divorcing over this issue is that when your ex has a a turn with custody he can legally just take the kid in for a circ himself because he's the parent. Better to keep making your point and hoping he'll come around. Just be firm that "it isn't happening" to your son.

You don't say where you live but I'm in the Pacific Northwest.. the circ rate here is pretty low for non Jews. That would give me hope that a judge would not find in favor of it.
post #3 of 39

Seems to me that if agreement can't be reached, then no action should be taken because that leaves both options open.  I am sure the one advocating for circumcsion won't like that, but it seems like th only logical choice under that scenario.

 

But you should look through the older posts here.  Many have had real trouble getting agreement, but have persevered and eventually gotten it.  If you give up more information about what his reasoning is, that may help.

 

Remember, amputating the foreskin should have some benefit that clearly outweighs the risk and damage done.  It is not accpetable for the pro circ person to simply give emotional pleas.  they must be able to articulate why it is the best choice, and should have support, not just their own feelings.  Lacking a solid argument, the conclusion should be do no harm and leave your son's options open. 

 

Regards

post #4 of 39

My dh was completely set against the idea of leaving ds intact. We have a great marriage, and open lines of communication, but for many of the same cultural reasons that parents give their sons over to this  pointless surgery, dh was firm that it had to be done. Here is how I had success:

 

1) if your marriage is otherwise strong, this should not lead to divorce or legal battles. YOU sign the consent form in the hospital. Simply do not consent.

 

2) I backed off trying to convince dh. I wasn't mean or standoffish about it, but with a gentle and loving heart, I just stood firm and didn't bring up the topic as if it were up for discussion. It was cased closed. period, though I told him I would consider any medical points he could bring to the table (he looked, and couldn't find anything, which surprised him I think) Dh got combative the more I tried to convince him, so I just accepted that he didn't want to be convinced and left it at that. If you must, emphasize that this is something your ds can always elect to do himself if he wants it.

 

3) I was lucky, in that our family doctor is from a culture that doesn't circ, and so is one of our good friends. That helped dh a lot. If you don't have those options available, just stick with points 1 & 2.

 

There is this great quote from the emperor character in Disney's Mulan... "No matter how the wind howls, the mountain doesn't bow to it"

Just be the mountain. Don't be angry. Remember to have empathy for your dh, who was a victim of this culture like my dh was. My dh ultimately came around when he finally held our perfect little boy, and even when as far as to apologize and tell me I was right all along (lol, he NEVER says that!). I hope you have a similar experience :)

post #5 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalohabreeze View Post

What happens when you and your husband can't agree. Like literally there is no way to convince him otherwise? Do you take the matter to court? Risk an otherwise awesome marriage and kindly ask him to step off? 

 

Has anyone had to battle in court over it? who won? 

 

 Even if it's an elective procedure could it be construed as denying Medical care?

 

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by tammylsmith View Post

My dh was completely set against the idea of leaving ds intact. We have a great marriage, and open lines of communication, but for many of the same cultural reasons that parents give their sons over to this  pointless surgery, dh was firm that it had to be done. Here is how I had success:

 

1) if your marriage is otherwise strong, this should not lead to divorce or legal battles. YOU sign the consent form in the hospital. Simply do not consent.

 

2) I backed off trying to convince dh. I wasn't mean or standoffish about it, but with a gentle and loving heart, I just stood firm and didn't bring up the topic as if it were up for discussion. It was cased closed. period, though I told him I would consider any medical points he could bring to the table (he looked, and couldn't find anything, which surprised him I think) Dh got combative the more I tried to convince him, so I just accepted that he didn't want to be convinced and left it at that. If you must, emphasize that this is something your ds can always elect to do himself if he wants it.

 

3) I was lucky, in that our family doctor is from a culture that doesn't circ, and so is one of our good friends. That helped dh a lot. If you don't have those options available, just stick with points 1 & 2.

 

There is this great quote from the emperor character in Disney's Mulan... "No matter how the wind howls, the mountain doesn't bow to it"

Just be the mountain. Don't be angry. Remember to have empathy for your dh, who was a victim of this culture like my dh was. My dh ultimately came around when he finally held our perfect little boy, and even when as far as to apologize and tell me I was right all along (lol, he NEVER says that!). I hope you have a similar experience :)

I'm glad to see Tammy posted about this; she's always the one I think of when parents battle & the mother just says "No."

 

Any time there is a dispute between a circ'd dad-to-be & a mama-to-be, I always link to this article.  It may help you to understand why he is so insistent.  It is just for you: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

 

Another tactic some have taken, is to tell the person who wants it done that they have to have compelling & convincing reasons to have it done.  NOt myths, etc.  Facts.  Let him convince you.

 

Best wishes,

Sus

 

 

 

post #6 of 39

What about the approach of telling your husband it should be your son's choice--not yours or your husband's at all--and just let your kid decide when he's old enough?  The owner of the penis should get to decide what happens to it, right? 

 

Would an argument like that resonate with him? 

post #7 of 39

Deep, deep breath.  How far along are you?  

 

I'm going to second a pp's suggestion of reading this essay:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

 

It is very, very good.  Hopefully that will be enough to do the trick.  Over the years many, many MDC moms have said that this essay changed everything for them and their dh on this topic. 

 

 

If not, when you are close to giving birth, you can let everyone in the hospital (and baby's pediatrician, etc.) know that you will sue if your son is circumcised.  If you feel like you need to contact a lawyer, you can contact www.arclaw.org.   And you can tell your dh "over my dead body."  You can tell him that if he circumcises your son, your marriage will be over and you will divorce him.  BUT DO NOT say that now.  Work on what the essay suggests, first.  

post #8 of 39

For me, I backed off confronting DH and having the argument head-on. He reads a lot of internet articles of his own choosing (not parenting related ones). I heard a little about his arguments - conformity and fitting in in school, and chose FEW articles that addressed circumcision rates where we live and overall. I did not focus on infant pain, emotional scarring or sexual issues - because I knew they were non-starters for him (maybe some were too close to the truth). I did not overwhelm him with article after article and angle after angle. 

 

When DS was born, DH had still not read the articles I gave him. I never nagged about it. When the nurse asked if we wanted him circumcised, I said no and DH said yes. Nurse said she would come back tomorrow after we had talked about it. DH looked at and said something like we never got to talk about this. I asked if he had read the articles, he said no but I know you have. We talked about what was in them. 

 

Nurse comes back the next day and asks the same question. Have you decided on circumcision. I say no, DH says well.... 

DH then figures out that it doesn't HAVE to be done in the hospital and the Ped can do it, after we've talked more. At this point I know I'm winning because  I KNOW DH is just not going to make special trip or special effort to get this done. He just won't remember and it will never be a priority for him. I say OK - and I NEVER bring it up. I've already decided, if we wants to talk about it - let him bring it up. 

 

Several days later we are in the car, leaving the peds office (Jewish woman with 2 sons) and DH finally remembers. I tell him to go back in and talk to her. We have an older daughter so we've been with this ped for years. I don't know what she said to him, but he came back in and said it was fine. 

 

Now - every approach is going to be different, and I'm just telling you what worked for me and my DH. I knew he would not be inclined to EVER bring the issue up himself or do anything about it after we left he hospital. I let that benign neglect work in my favor and I think I avoided many big fights and putting  him a corner where he dug himself in. He didn't have to fight me on it because I didn't keep coming at him. 


Edited by Ellien C - 3/11/12 at 3:44am
post #9 of 39

My ex was extremely opposed to leaving our son intact. I was extremely opposed to having him cut.

 

I put my foot down and left him intact, knowing he would never go behind my back to have it done. He resented, (and still resents),  me for that decision. But the decision was never ours to make in the first place.

post #10 of 39

goodness no don't go to court over it.

if you are having a hospital birth, remember that YOU are the patient, and the hospital will abide by your wishes (or at least they are legally supposed to). 

if you oppose circumcision, tell the hospital that. tell the doctors, tell the nurses, make sure you don't sign a consent form in the heat of labor pains.

just stick to your guns. i agree with the PP, that you don't bring it up again with your husband.

your husband is defensive over what happened to his own penis. he NEEDS to feel that he's in the right, that his own parents made the "right" decision; anything else is psychologically too much to bear. so don't force him to keep having the conversation over and over. don't have the need to be right yourself, by getting his "buy in."

 

i do believe that most men who want their sons circumcised, want it done the day after he's born, when he "won't remember it," and / or "won't feel any pain." or whatever line they believe. 

 

if you can make it past the hospital stay, and bring your son home intact, there is a very good chance that the subject won't come up again, and that will be the end of it.

 

be content to have an intact son, and never discuss it with your husband again.

 

that's my BTDT advice...

post #11 of 39

My DH and I never agreed.  DH made an appointment with a urologist.  I went along and told the urologist I didn't want it done.  He refused to do it without both of us on board, so that was the end.  DH was pissed as hell and didn't really talk to me for a week or two, but we got through it.  He still lives in fear of our son's foreskin that he's certain will have devastating consequences someday, but mostly we just don't talk about it.  It wasn't the way I'd have preferred things to play out, but it is what it is.  I think the consequences for our marriage would have been much worse if I had given in, because I never would have forgiven either one of us.

post #12 of 39

California now has a law stating only 1 parent needs to consent for a circ.  If you live in that state, keep your baby very close.

post #13 of 39

This issue is killing me. I am about 16 weeks pregnant and anti circ and my husband is 100% pro. I just read The Vulnerability of Men article and that is the exact same argument we had last night. We have a 16 month old daughter so this was never an issue before. I am praying we have another girl so we don't have to go down this road. I will be getting a sonogram soon to determine the sex. If its a boy I will just have to put my foot down. The stress of waiting to find out is horrible. I have been trying not to get too worked up since we don't know yet but it's hard.

post #14 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddle View Post

My DH and I never agreed.  DH made an appointment with a urologist.  I went along and told the urologist I didn't want it done.  He refused to do it without both of us on board, so that was the end.  DH was pissed as hell and didn't really talk to me for a week or two, but we got through it.  He still lives in fear of our son's foreskin that he's certain will have devastating consequences someday, but mostly we just don't talk about it.  It wasn't the way I'd have preferred things to play out, but it is what it is.  I think the consequences for our marriage would have been much worse if I had given in, because I never would have forgiven either one of us.


I'm so proud of you!


DH and I did Bradley childbirth classes and when the instructor told him there's no reason for it.... and then a few days later our CN -midwife told him the same thing... that was the end of it. He trusted these two professionals and we never looked back. Our intact son is 16 and never had any issues.
post #15 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by HillHouse View Post

This issue is killing me. I am about 16 weeks pregnant and anti circ and my husband is 100% pro. I just read The Vulnerability of Men article and that is the exact same argument we had last night. We have a 16 month old daughter so this was never an issue before. I am praying we have another girl so we don't have to go down this road. I will be getting a sonogram soon to determine the sex. If its a boy I will just have to put my foot down. The stress of waiting to find out is horrible. I have been trying not to get too worked up since we don't know yet but it's hard.

 Sorry you're going through this! Keep us updated.

post #16 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalohabreeze View Post

What happens when you and your husband can't agree. 

Let your son decide as a teenager. Sounds simplistic, but it makes sense if you think about it. Perhaps your husband will see the logic in that.

post #17 of 39
Tell your husband to come up with ONE valid reason that CANNOT be "canceled out" by a reason to leave intact.

For example:
If he says "son should be circumcised because he'll look different in the locker room"
You say "If he's teased, he just has to loudly ask why someone is looking and they'll feel uncomfortable for knowing that they're a looker."

If he says "Dirt can get trapped under the skin"
You say "Should we remove the skin from our eyes or our daughters' vaginas?"

Just tell him to come up with ONE vaild reason.
post #18 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugmenot View Post

Tell your husband to come up with ONE valid reason that CANNOT be "canceled out" by a reason to leave intact.
For example:
If he says "son should be circumcised because he'll look different in the locker room"
You say "If he's teased, he just has to loudly ask why someone is looking and they'll feel uncomfortable for knowing that they're a looker."
If he says "Dirt can get trapped under the skin"
You say "Should we remove the skin from our eyes or our daughters' vaginas?"
Just tell him to come up with ONE vaild reason.

 

This. Put the burden of proof why the child needs to be circ'd on him. And have documentation ready when he brings those reasons to you.

post #19 of 39

Sonogram is scheduled for Aug 6th and we will find out then boy or girl. I think I am winning the war. He said to me the other day "what if he wants it done when he is older"? I told him no big deal we can discuss then but I could not in good conscience subject a baby to a medical procedure that was for cosmetic reasons only. Fingers crossed this just blows over.  

post #20 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by HillHouse View Post

Sonogram is scheduled for Aug 6th and we will find out then boy or girl. I think I am winning the war. He said to me the other day "what if he wants it done when he is older"? I told him no big deal we can discuss then but I could not in good conscience subject a baby to a medical procedure that was for cosmetic reasons only. Fingers crossed this just blows over.  

 

Stay strong.  Your doing well.  Your son will thank you someday.  I wish my mom had done that.

 

Regards

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