Appropriate noise boundaries for children living in a condo

[JMJ]

We live in a condominium complex on the top floor. We have an almost 3 year old DD, and we are expecting our second next month. The condominium complex isn't the best place to raise kids, but the advantages have thus far outweighed the disadvantages. There's no play space for kids, but there is a large common balcony that could be used for running around, not really a place I can quite have DD go on her own quite yet, but she's getting close to the point that she could walk down the stairs and play by herself if I kept my door open to see her. I think it will happen this Summer, but not yet.

DD is very active. I work hard to get her out of the house every day, and DH takes her for walks many evenings. Still, she finds that she has times that she has energy to burn while we are at home. I see this as pretty normal for a kid. She's maybe a little more active than many other kids her age, but she's a skinny little girl even though she eats a ton, and she's healthy and happy. She has bursts of energy throughout the day, again normal for a healthy child, and she seems to just explode with joy, dancing around the house, acting like various animals, and running to the next activity. I can't help but be inspired by her enthusiasm for life.

Because we live in a condominium complex and share walls and floors with other residents, there are quiet hours that we are expected to follow.  We work very hard to comply strictly with the quiet hours.  Many days, DD is asleep for the whole time, and when she gets up early, we make it a point to do something quietly until quiet hours are over.  Other times, I mostly just let DD be a kid and move around as she likes as long as she's not hurting anyone or anything.  I do try to minimize banging on the floor that doesn't need to happen.  I teach her to move her stool carefully, and I don't put up with her stomping or banging things when she's angry, but if she wants to pretend to fly like a bird, hopping around the house for 15 minutes when it's not quiet hours, I figure that's not really a problem.  Our neighbor below us has at times banged something on her ceiling/our floor to let us know that she thinks that there is a problem, and when that happens, I ask DD to stay on the carpeted area to dampen the sound.

So, last night, our neighbor came up to talk to me.  DD had spent the last half hour going back and forth from my laundry pile to a place on the kitchen floor where she was using cloth wipes to assemble a swimming pool and a swimsuit and was happily pretending to swim on our kitchen floor while I got some sewing done.  She was running some of the time, and she pretended to jump into the pool a couple times, but I didn't think that 5:30 in the afternoon was an inappropriate time for such fun and games.  Our neighbor had a different opinion.  She let me know that she thought that I should be teaching my daughter to use soft indoor feet at all times even in her own home.

In her defense, this condominium building was not very well built.  The contractor cut every corner possible, and there is basically no insulation in between the units... like you can hear conversations if they get above a certain level.  I'm sure that my daughter's fun and games are much louder for my neighbor than for me when she runs and jumps.  I believe in respecting others and trying to live in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary bother to other people, but I don't think that there need to be arbitrary rules for things that aren't hurting people, and my discipline style is to provide a more appropriate outlet for the behavior instead of stopping it.

For example, when DD wants to use a loud or high-pitched voice that is hurting my ears, I ask her to go in another room and close the door to do so.  Usually, she gets in about one or two more screeches before she's done.  Asking her to run on the carpet when she's obviously bothering the neighbor is another example of that.  I'd be happy to send her outside to run, but it's harder when it's cold, and the air quality is bad, and it involves me stopping what I'm doing to go with her.  Sometimes, it's an our or more before we could get out the door if I'm making a meal, and it has to be ready by the time DH gets home so that he can eat in time to go to his meeting.

I've got some ideas in my brainstorm of things that I'm planning to suggest to my neighbor.  I'll give her my phone number so she can call me instead of banging on my ceiling.  I'll ask her to let me know if there are times that she really needs some peace and quiet so that we could plan to either be out of the house or doing some quiet activity if possible during those times.  I'd like to know if there are times that she's regularly gone so that I can not worry about DD being quiet during those times.  I also think we should look into options for adding remedial insulation between the units.  I'm open to other ideas as well.

I'm mainly questioning, though, what do you think is reasonable for a young child living in a condominium?  Is it enough to follow the quiet hours rules and let your kid be a kid the other times?  Should there be a "no running" and/or "no jumping" rule in the house at all times?  (One of her favorite CD's has a song that she likes, and one of the verses is about jumping and another about running, so I'd have to prohibit that.)  For you other apartment/condo-dwellers, how do you deal with respecting the neighbors while raising your kids?

[ForeverFather]

In order to avoid problems with your neighbor, you could try to keep your daughter from running or jumping on the hard floors. Carpet makes a huge difference in the sound. However, you're already being reasonable, unless the neighbor has some special circumstance (like working nights) which makes her need quiet time during the day. If she's just getting annoyed, then she needs to work on that essential apartment-living skill called "tuning out the neighbors".

One thing you could get is a gymnastics mat like my downstairs neighbor (who has more condos below her) has. It's about 4" of foam and something like 4' x 5' in size. Her kids love to jump on it and it apparently stopped the complaints from the people below her. It also lets her 4yo take flying leaps off the couch without hurting himself. Lol.

[JMJ]

Thank you for your response.  I love how I seem to always get such creative ideas here.  We're discussing the idea of a gymnastics mat and trying to encourage jumping on that.

As far as my neighbor is concerned, she says that the carpet doesn't help nearly enough (which is probably true since that would be about the only insulation).  She also has MS.  She is in a wheelchair part-time but seems to have her full mental capacity.  She is able to drive, but I know she doesn't work full time (though I believe she works or volunteers part-time), either because of her disabilities or because of retirement.  She is home a lot more than the people in the building who hold down full-time jobs.  I know that she deals with fatigue, but I don't know what that means for her needs for quiet, though if she could communicate with me more about that, I would be willing to work with her on that.  So, yes, there are special circumstances, but it's not as straightforward as working nights and needing to sleep at x time during the day.

[smeep]

I think she's being a little unreasonable. I do think, particularly since there's almost no insulation, that you should tell your daughter no more running or jumping - and you should definitely look into that gym mat thing! And a gymnastics or swimming class might be really helpful as well. Karate can be really helpful because it teaches children a lot of self discipline.

I lived in an apartment where the insulation was a joke. I could hear the neighbour on one side walking up and down the stairs and listening to his music. I could hear the neighbour on the other side having sex. And the neighbour behind us, who complained about me listening to my music (really not that loud) and vacuuming at 6 or 7pm or 10am, I could hear singing in the bathroom early every morning - and he had band practice a couple times a month which I could really hear.  It sucked sometimes, but overall I didn't really care that much - it wasn't the fault of any of us that the insulation was horrible. Which is why I thought it was really unreasonable that he made noise complaints because I had no issue putting up with his morning concerts. At the very least he could have politely addressed it with us first...and either way, I thought it was ridiculous. 

I think the remedial insulation is a great idea, but I would go 50/50 on it. Yeah, it's your kid making the noise, but it would benefit her no matter who is there, and it would increase the value of her condo more than it would yours (or at least give it a great selling point, which could make all the difference especially if she were competing against other units). 

Oh, and I can't imagine that the MS would really be relevant to this issue. I mean, she can bang on the ceiling and all. lol If it were an issue she could have just asked you for your number already. Which I think is a great idea. 


ETA: The pretend swimming pool thing is too cute!!!

[provocativa]

I have this issue occaisionally with my neighbor.  She is hates kids running and jumping in the house.  I love it.  We are also yellers, and screamers when angry.  We try not to, but this is the first apt. after my divorce.  We were used to house living.  Basically, I just make mine tone it down after 8pm.  If it's not illegal, or against condo rules, I say tough tits for the neighbor.  She needs to get apartment ears and tune it out.  I hate that my neighbor has the TV on all the time.  I don't even watch ANY TV.   So her tv and inane conversations are as annoying to me as my kids jumping.  My neighbor is obese, her daughter is too, and the granddaughter lives with gma next to me half the time.  They don't let her do anything active in the house, and don't let her outside much.  I am the opposite...I struggled with weight issues in my teens, and I encourage my kids to be active all the time.  We dance around and jump about when cleaning house.  I feel like telling your dd not to run and jump is teaching her bad habits for a lifetime.  If it were me, I would approach a member of the convo board to clarify the noise policy.  Maybe your neighbor would like some noise cancelling headphones; do find out when she is not there, and get the gym mat.  Manners are manners and it may seem like I am being rude.  When I lived in a big northeastern city, though, you just get apartment ears.  I've regrown mine since October.  Sigh.

[JMJ]

Smeep, thanks for your response, though I'm trying to understand your suggestions.  How would you see telling my daughter no more running and jumping working out?  I try to draw clear boundaries so that my daughter can freely act within those boundaries, so I'm wondering if you could clarify what sort of boundary you think would be reasonable.  Right now, my boundary is that I don't let her just stomp on the floor, but if she's doing something fun at a decent hour, I don't want to interfere.  She does take a music and movement class, and I make sure she gets out of the house for the chance to do something active every day, usually both in the morning and in the afternoon/evening.  She's a little young for a karate class yet (not even 3), but I'd keep that in mind for later. 

Provocativa, you really hit on my concern when you talk about teaching my daughter bad habits by not allowing her to run and jump.  From what I've read about healthy child fitness, it's not like adult fitness.  While an adult may go for a run or go to the gym for a work-out, a healthy child's exercise happens in quick spurts of very intense activity many times a day.  (Some theorize that adults are better off exercising in this fashion as well, but that's a different discussion.)  Most sources I have read on the topic seem to agree that the quick spurts of activity is what's best for children.  That's what they have energy for, distance running would put too much strain on their joints, and, well, good luck getting any little kid to exercise in another way.  They'll happily run ahead of you on your hike for the first 20 minutes, and then they'll ask to be carried for the rest, only to run circles around you when you get home.  This is absolutely normal for a child, and I think that training children to sit still for hours on end is exactly one of our nation's problems contributing to obesity.  Being able to do a quiet activity for an hour or so is one thing.  Not being allowed to run and jump in her own house seems crazy to me.  She doesn't usually express herself with as much exuberance (read: I don't think she often gets her heart rate up as well) when she is other places outside the house.  She's much more shy and usually takes at least an hour to warm up to a place enough that she feels free to fully let it all out, even places that we go every week.  Also, when it's cold outside, she tends to move slower or want to be carried.

My husband is actually on the HOA board, and our quiet hours are 10PM to 8AM.  Other times, pretty much anything is fine, though manners are always appropriate.  I guess that is a smaller time frame than at a lot of places.  We all head for bed around 9 (though DD does love to get one last burst out from 8:50-9PM), and she doesn't usually get up until after 7, so she's usually asleep almost the whole time.  We try to add a 1 hour buffer of somewhat quiet time on either side of that boundary, but that's not a hard and fast rule.  I let DD turn on music quietly and dance after 8, and if I want to use my blender to make breakfast, I will and just make it quick.  There has been at least one complaint of noise from our DD that has been brought to the board, but the board president has either a daughter or niece who is close to him but doesn't live here, and he scoffed at the complaint, saying that kids make noise, and if you don't want to deal with kids, you can live in seniors-only housing.

[tiqa]

Not very helpful here.  We moved to an apartment with our two preschoolers who are very active and loud (my son has SPD and needs therapy to learn how to regulate himself) and we got continually harassed by our downstairs neighbors to the point where we had to move out.  I became fearful for our safety and we were very cruelly mocked.  We were in no danger of being kicked out but it was so anxiety-provoking that I was crying every day from them coming upstairs, threatening us, etc.  We should have gotten legal action taken, but I was so humiliated and I couldn't take it any longer.  We ended up moving away.  Thankfully we had that option and we are now returning to house-living but it was very stressful.  I know your situation isn't that dire or anything, but I feel for you.  It's tough having to regulate your kids - and it's not like it's an easy thing to do.  They're kids, and just full of energy.  Even the best-mannered kids are loud sometimes, and if you can't be loud at home, it sucks.  It's one thing to be quiet and mild in public settings, but there's got to be some place where you can just relax, and it's frustrating when neighbors don't approve.  But on the other hand, they're living in apartments/condos themselves and should have some understanding - if they want absolute silence, they should move to a house with no neighbors.  It's kind of like living in the city but expecting there to be no traffic noises.  It just won't happen. 

[rjsalm]

I write all of this jokingly.

Isn't it great you live on the top floor where you won't have to hear:

• cats playing with noisy bell toys and knocking things over on poorly insulated hardwood or linoleum floors
• ladies wearing high-heeled shoes or boots
• heavy walkers pacing around, which, even the best insulation padding and carpet can't diminish
• children jumping up and down
• or babies and young children crying & screaming at all hours

You've done good.  And if you really want to impress your neighbors and have hardwood floors, give your children spoons to drop.  A spoon against a hardwood or linoleum floor will sound like a hammer to the people below you.  When your neighbor or building manager tries, at first, to politely ask you to curb your (baby, pet, stiletto heels) noise, make sure you give them the stink eye and don't feel any sympathy for them.  Even better would be to look at them with that stink eye and tell them to buy headphones or use earplugs.  Or one of those sound machines.  So for the rest of your lease term (or eternity if you've bought a condo), your neighbor will be forced to dramatically alter their way of sleeping just because you believe its a natural process in life for people to have babies or noisy pets, move into communal environments, and be allowed to make as much noise as possible.

Hmm...was I joking? 

[tiqa]

I'm not sure I get the spirit of the above post.

More to the point, let's play devil's advocate and assume the OP wants to completely silence her child in order to not bother the downstairs tenants.  How does one do that?  Would you be able to silence your child to that degree?

[JMJ]

Tiqua, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.  That must have been very difficult.  Thankfully, our situation is not nearly as dire.  This neighbor has been for the most part very patient with us and positive about our daughter and her behavior, and most of our neighbors absolutely adore DD and tell us all about it often.  She is generally very mild-mannered so it's not nearly as difficult as trying to keep a child with SPD "quiet enough."  She is almost 3, though, and dealing with a stressed out mama and a new baby coming, and we've had to use some calming techniques similar to ones recommended for children with special needs, but they have been quite effective.  I'm hopeful that we will be able to work things out with this neighbor so that we can all be more at peace.  She hasn't come up to talk to us since the one night, but we've been trying to do what we can.

You are absolutely right that it would be impossible to keep her quiet all the time, but we're trying to do what's reasonable.  We've been more strict about not wearing shoes in the house (which we already pretty much did already.  We're still looking at gymnastics mats (They're quite an investment, so we want to be sure about what we're buying.), but I've been putting down several layers of thick blankets when DD wants to play a jumping game so that she can jump on them instead (She now loves the "jumping in the pool" game, and she's happy to have me help her create one for her out of blankets).  We've been encouraging her to run only on the carpet (and of course, only during reasonable hours), and when she wants to run back and forth, ending with a jump, we encourage her to run and jump into the couch rather than on the floor.  We're also learning how to be even more gentle when moving stools, and we're being more aggressive about taking DD out for a walk when things are really out of control.  I hope it's making some difference, because I don't know how much more we can reasonably do.

Since our neighbor hasn't come back in a week and a half, I'm trying to figure out if and how I should bring it up with her again.  I feel like we were talking past each other in our first encounter on the subject, and I don't think she really got that I would really like to do what I can (within reason) to make her life more pleasant.  I also don't feel like I really understood what she was really asking, maybe no more than what we're doing.  I would like feedback on if any of what I'm doing is helping at all (though she hasn't knocked on the ceiling since), and I still would like to give her my number and ask her if there are time periods that she is regularly gone or would really want quiet.  I don't want to nag her about it or open a whole new can of worms if I've been doing all that, and it's not helping at all, but I would like some closure.  I don't like feeling like I'm in conflict with other people, and I do want to be a good neighbor.  I am encouraged that she ran into a friend of mine in the elevator who was visiting (with her 3 kids) last week and was telling her what great people we are.  I do hope she really means that.

[nextcommercial]

I would find some ways to insulate the floors better.  At the same time, your neighbor might try to use fans or some other white noise to drown out her noise.

I understand the frustrations of living with upstairs neighbors.  I've done it, and it's hard.  BUT, you need to be reasonable.  If she sleeps during the day, she needs to find a way to drown out normal noise from neighbors.  If she's home all day, then she needs to accept a little bit of noise.  It could be MUCH worse... you could be awake all night having friends over, or leaving the music on.  

My mom is LOUD.  She's deaf, but likes to listen to her tv, so it's on all day and all night.  She turns it up so loud that you can hear it from the street.  She shares one wall with a neighbor, and I feel bad for that lady.  

I think that you are being super aware, you are taking your daughter out to get some rowdiness out of her system,  and you are willing to try using tumbling mats for her to play on.  There's not much else you can do really.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS387US387&q=tumbling+mats&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=2626464368839115140&sa=X&ei=QqA5T4KCM4Xo2QXUqbWLAg&ved=0CJQBEPMCMAE

You can also try those foam squares and put a floor rug over it to insulate her noise.  Invite the neighbor up for coffee and show her what lengths you are going to, to help keep the noise level down.  

[sandy'smama]

Just a quick reply from someone who lived all her life in  apartments (and has kids, pets and hardwood floors but no stilettos :)

I have absolutely no problem letting my kids run and play and carrying all the normal household tasks (hoovering, laundry etc) in the daytime hours 7am - 10pm during the week and a wee bit later - say 10am at the weekend. our house is usually really quiet from about dinnertime at 6pm till 7 or 8am. My kids are noisy at times and so are our neighbours such is the communal living and everyone should just learn to live with it or look for a detached house. If we are expecting guests or more noisy activity than usual we let our neighbours know and they let us know in turn. 

We ALL have right to enjoy our homes whether we are a disabled person or a child. I am sure you know when the noise level generated by your child is too high and you deal with. Demanding total quiet at all times is unreasonable and personally I would not worry too much about it.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by JMJ 

There has been at least one complaint of noise from our DD that has been brought to the board, but the board president has either a daughter or niece who is close to him but doesn't live here, and he scoffed at the complaint, saying that kids make noise, and if you don't want to deal with kids, you can live in seniors-only housing.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this. I live in a "condo" that I rent (its on the 2nd floor of a 2 story building) from the owner, and I haven't met the neighbors yet since we just moved in, but so far we haven't had any complaints. I do try to keep ds noise level reasonable, but sometimes he's loud. Not much I can do about it. Especially since he's 3 and throwing lots of tantrums lately. I'm not going to appease his tantrums so that the neighbors don't have to listen to him.

[NYCVeg]

We live in a co-op apartment building with a lot of rules about noise, etc. We try very, very hard to teach dd to be courteous to and respectful of her neighbors. This is her community, too, after all. Just as I expect my next door neighbor not to blast his TV at night so my kid can sleep, I expect my dd not to rattle the light fixtures of the apartment below her. As someone who's incredibly sensitive to noise and who works at home, I know very well how difficult it can be to have careless, noisy neighbors.

Shoes off when we're inside. We don't allow running in the house and we don't allow jumping up and down on the hardwood floor or furniture. Stuff like ballet dancing and so forth is fine as long as she's not leaping and crashing around. We have some carpets and playmats to muffle noise as well. She gets tons of exercise--we walk everywhere (we live in a big city), we go to the local playgrounds as much as possible, and she gets built-in exercise time at school, dance class, gymnastics, etc. Honestly, I don't think running the 20 feet across our apartment really constitutes "exercise" anyway. 

Edited by NYCVeg - 2/19/12 at 8:15am

[Polliwog]

We live in a townhouse condo so we don't have upstairs neighbors. But, my kids own footsteps/jumps upstairs drive me absolutely crazy. So, I understand what your neighbor is experiencing. My kids are allowed to dance and have fun but we don't jump or run in the house. Of course, it happens sometimes, but it's not hard to have fun without running in indoor spaces.

[JMJ]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and ideas.  I talked with my neighbor yesterday, and she says that she has noticed a significant difference, so it appears that what we've been doing has been enough to take the worst of the rattling out.  She told me not to worry about it during daytime hours, just the evenings, and she liked the idea of sharing contact information and suggested e-mail as a way to communicate.  I'm feeling much better about the whole thing, and I'm much more confident that we can work out the details now.

[Mandy613]

i hate to agree with your neighbour.. but after living in an apt for 21 years hearing kids being too loud during dinner hour sucks LOL. same as hearing them run and scream down the hallways or having to hear them all day and half the evening above your head really does get to you cuz you cant relax at all. same really goes for those people who allow their dogs to chronically bark all day and all night either in their unit or outside in the back yard. 

how about buying kiddo some really cool slippers for inside? and saving the crazed running and jumping for outdoor play only. noise travels lol. 

best of luck. 

[Anna Phor]

We live in a fairly well-built apartment building, but noise still travels between floors. 

We have a strict no-shoes in the house rule (well, we don't hold guests to it, but for family). We have a lot of carpet on the floors, and we also have 2'x2' foam puzzle mats in the playing areas (like this: http://www.amazon.com/Thick-Multi-purpose-Blue-Mats-Set/dp/B003T1R7DU). 

[Boot]

I've been struggling with this recently. DS is almost 5 and full of energy. It almost impossible to stop him from running. It's just his natural form of locomotion! The neighbours on one side thump on the wall sometimes and it's very stressful. I feel like, at 8.30am a child running up and down the hallway because he's being a monkey about getting his boots and jacket on is just something that the neighbours need to learn to tolerate. We have a no running and no screaming rule and we never wear shoes but we have to live our lives and I'm not prepared to spend my whole day trying to suppress normal childhood energy and damaging my relationship with my son in the process. We are outside a lot and there is no noise between and 6.30pm and 7.30am. We remind him not to run, of course, but I'm not going to put him in a time out if he doesn't listen. My husband gets very stressed when he thinks DS is bothering the neighbours and it impacts their relationship ;-(. 

Ironically, these neighbours are the same ones who smoke and drink right under our kids rooms until late into the night, have loud speakers that reverberate up our communal wall and wake our kids, 'warm up' the engine of a very loud motorbike in our shared carport, throw firecrackers into our property at halloween and have two teenage boys who run up and down the stairs slamming doors and swearing at each other (when the parents aren't home). I haven't complained about any of these things because I feel that it's part of communal living and they could be a lot worse. Oh well. 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by rjsalm 

I write all of this jokingly.

Isn't it great you live on the top floor where you won't have to hear:

• cats playing with noisy bell toys and knocking things over on poorly insulated hardwood or linoleum floors
• ladies wearing high-heeled shoes or boots
• heavy walkers pacing around, which, even the best insulation padding and carpet can't diminish
• children jumping up and down
• or babies and young children crying & screaming at all hours

You've done good.  And if you really want to impress your neighbors and have hardwood floors, give your children spoons to drop.  A spoon against a hardwood or linoleum floor will sound like a hammer to the people below you.  When your neighbor or building manager tries, at first, to politely ask you to curb your (baby, pet, stiletto heels) noise, make sure you give them the stink eye and don't feel any sympathy for them.  Even better would be to look at them with that stink eye and tell them to buy headphones or use earplugs.  Or one of those sound machines.  So for the rest of your lease term (or eternity if you've bought a condo), your neighbor will be forced to dramatically alter their way of sleeping just because you believe its a natural process in life for people to have babies or noisy pets, move into communal environments, and be allowed to make as much noise as possible.

Hmm...was I joking? 

I know this is an oldish thread, but just wanted to reply to this. I totally get the above poster, and I think that some people don't quite understand what it's like to live on the below other tenants in a poorly designed complex/condo with hard floors. Little sounds ARE amplified. You can almost hear every step sometimes. If you're a poor or light sleeper, or if you have inconsiderate neighbors, it can be awful.

I think if you live in this situation, and you have a small child, you should do whatever you can to teach them that have and indoor way to play and an outdoor way to play. Including jumping, hopping, banging, screaming, dropping/throwing things, etc. Those things should be discouraged or outright disallowed. Especially if your kid does get plenty of outdoor time. I don't for a second believe that that is not "letting a kid be a kid". I honestly don't even know what that term means in this context. Obviously, she's a kid, you know? But you are both tenants. Maybe hopefully one day you can get a house or a ground floor condo somewhere that's more conducive to letting your kids be as loud as they want. rd4as

p.s. I know that the OP isn't letting her dd be as loud as she wants, and I think that's the way to go. This is just a general observation post. :)