Crucifixion

[DaryLLL]

Want to discuss it?

It was a form of public display of criminals, almost always rebellious slaves or lower class people. They were publically hung as a warning to others not to rebel.

It was popular in the Roman Empire, but used earlier by the Greeks and Carthaginians.

Hear biblical scholar/historian John Dominic Crossan discuss crucifixion in general, and Jesus' in particular, here:

http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml...ate=04/01/2004

[Arduinna]

What are your sources for the claim the "earlier" greeks used cruxifiction (prior to becoming part of the roman empire)?

[DaryLLL]

Crucifixion!!!!!


Cruci. Fixion.


Ahhh....!!! (runs screaming)











(Catches breath)








My sources would be listed on the link.

[DaryLLL]

Sorry A. I didn't mean to yell at you.

I guess people have a really hard time spelling that word. Just a pet peeve. forgive?

[DaryLLL]

Here is a pic of Bacchus crucified. 200 BCE, I believe this seal is from.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0609...59#reader-link

[Arduinna]

Ok, the link was your source for the claim??

A scholar of biblical studies??

Greece existed prior to biblical times. If your claiming that the greeks practicied it during biblical times, fine. They were after all part of the Roman Empire and Rome made the laws and enforced them. So would you claim that conquered people committed an act when they had no personal sovereignty?


There is no evidence that I've read that the greek people or their governments practiced cruxifiction during the Classical or Hellenistic periods. Which is the time they had sovereignty over themselves. If you have evidence that they did, please share it. I'm open to learn something new.

[Arduinna]

oh well, sorry for the typo.

With all due respect, I don't take popular press books as scholarly sources unless they back up their claims to actual scholarly research. So I'd have to see the footnotes for the claim.

Baccus is a Roman God not Greek. Rome had it's own Gods prior to exposure to Greek culture. After exposier to the Greeks anthromorphic Gods they superimposed the anthromophism onto their own gods but kept their original association also. And regardless, there are any expressions in art itself that were never actually practiced by a people. Unless you aren't saying that the greek people actually practiced cruxificiton in life but that it was part of the cult worship of Dionysus??

[Arduinna]

actually after reading your OP again it's clear that you meant that they practiced it in life not art and myth.

edited to add:

so I guess I'm back to my first question

What are your sources for the claim the "earlier" greeks used cruxifiction (prior to becoming part of the roman empire)?

[DaryLLL]

OK, Ard. Quite often biblical scholars do not just focus on 1st century CE, as the Hebrew Scriptures go back a bit further than that. Most scholars I correspond with study comparative religions of the entire Mediterranean region to compare/contrast with the study of the history of Judaism and Xtianity.

Mr Crossan is an old guy and was a Catholic monk for 12 yrs but left the order in 1969, so has been a [layman]scholar/theologian/historian, then since, 1957.

John Dominic Crossan is professor emeritus of biblical studies at DePaul University in Chicago. A native of Ireland, and ordained as a priest in the United States, he left the priesthood in 1969. Crossan is a founding member of the Jesus Seminar, a group of scholars who meet to determine the authenticity of Jesus' sayings in the Gospels. [note: they focus on other topics as well]Crossan wrote the books Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography, The Historical Jesus and Who Killed Jesus? Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of The Death of Jesus.

[note: the interview lists other books by him]


Those are his credentials. I just heard the radio interview. I have not read his books or seen their notes. I have seen him numerous times on TV as well.

He mentions briefly the history of the use of crucifixion in other cultures besdies the Roman in the interview. Sorry if you think I was too gullible to believe him. I guess I was swept away by his Irish charm.

Doing a google...

http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeo...xion-cross.htm

Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)

Some further detail is given in "The Eerdman's Bible Dictionary", Rev. Ed., 1975: CROSS ... Crucifixion is first attested among the Persians (cf. Herodotus, Hist. i.128.2; iii.132.2, 159.1), perhaps derived from the Assyrian impalement. It was later employed by the Greeks, especially Alexander the Great, and by the Carthaginians, from whom the Romans adapted the practice as a punishment for slaves and non-citizens, and occasionaly for citizens guilty of treason. Although in the Old Testament the corpses of blasphemers or idolaters punished by stoning might be hanged "on a tree" as further humiliation (Deut. 21:23), actual crucifixion was not introduced in Palestine until Hellenistic times. The Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes crucified those Jews who would not accept hellenization (Josephus Ant. xii.240-41; cf 1 Macc. 1:44-50).

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html

Alexander the Great had 2,000 survivors from the siege of Tyre crucified on the shores of the Mediterranean.--source: Curtius Rufus, Hist. Alex. 4.4.17

There was one notable exception to this passage in which the victims were first killed via crucifixion rather that being hung on a tree after death. This was the case with the high priest, Alexander Janneus in which 800 Pharisees were crucified in Jerusalem in 267 BC before their wives and children. While on the cross, according to Josephus, the women and children were then slaughtered--Josephus, Antiquities 12.256.

[Arduinna]

ok interesting. His is a very small but significant period in Greek history. One that I haven't spent a great deal of time on as I prefer the Classical Age just prior to that. And military history isn't a big interest of mine.

[DaryLLL]

Easter just over and no one but a Greek reconstructionist wants to talk about cruci. fixion?




I promise not to slam your creative spelling. :

[Arduinna]

LOL, sorry for the highjack. back to your regularly scheduled topic. I promise to stay out of it if that is what is keeping people away

[DaryLLL]

Did anyone listen to the radio show? Any comments?

Commenting myself in the meantime, sound of crickets getting boring.

Crossan on suffering: (paraphrase)

"Those that themselves suffer mightily, as in, being victims of a war or the Plague, like to focus on Christ's suffering (as opposed to hs life, teachings, even his love), as when they focus on his suffering, it makes their own suffering more bearable and seem more meaningful.

One of the sources Gibson used for his movie, the nun Emmerich, was bedridden in enormous pain for the last 10 yrs of her life, and in fact sickly her whole life. Her book, the Dolorous Passion of Christ, is all about his suffering, scourging and death on the cross. "

So for those how wonder about the focus on the blood, the pain, the weaponry, etc, does this make any sense?

[kama'aina mama]

I am interested but trying to listen to a thing is a challenge. Is there a transcript?

[indie]

Originally posted by DaryLLL
Crucifixion!!!!!


Cruci. Fixion.


Ahhh....!!! (runs screaming)











(Catches breath)








My sources would be listed on the link.

If it makes you feel any better, I'll probably never misspell crucifixion again after listening to you harp on it over and over and over....

[SpiralWoman]

hi there,

I was just reading the thread about violence during the Easter service & was having thoughts about the nature of the crucifixion & sacrifice & Easter, but since I'm not practicing Cristianity I thought I'd better bring my thoughts over here to Studies. ( I hope that is the correct use of these forums, haven't been posting here in Spirit. lately)

If I stop to read the links (or listen...) I will lose my train of thought or DS will wake or, etc. So I hope you don't mind if I get these thoughts down, & then try to go back to the links as time allows.

So, as a child I went to church & learned the Easter story & of course John 3:16 (I won an airplane ride as part of VBS by memorizing so many verses! WOW!) But it *never* made sense to me at all. Why would God love the world so much that he would let his only son die? Just no logic for me there. Why wouldn't he love the world so much that we were all happy & lived? Further evidence to me as a child that fathers made no sense.

But anyway, now that I have learned other stories of Easter & some about the concept of seasonal sacrifice, I come to think of the Christian story of the crucifixion as such a typically Christian (violent) distortion. So sad.

Hey, there is also a very interesting interpretation of the crucifixion by Carolyn Myss. Anybody familiar with her? She looks at the archetypal symbolism of it. That Jesus' suffering & death on the cross represents a pschological surrendering. Giving in to what is & then finding the freedom to move on. That spoke to me bcz it reminds me of the 1st step in recovery & it also harkened my mind to the "Hanged One" Major Arcana card in Tarot ( I use Motherpeace, so if you are familiar, that is the image in my head when I say that).

looking forward to what others have to say, Maria

[DaryLLL]

Originally posted by SpiralWoman
I was just reading the thread about violence during the Easter service & was having thoughts about the nature of the crucifixion & sacrifice & Easter, but since I'm not practicing Cristianity I thought I'd better bring my thoughts over here to Studies. ( I hope that is the correct use of these forums, haven't been posting here in Spirit. lately)

This is the place!

If I stop to read the links (or listen...) I will lose my train of thought or DS will wake or, etc. So I hope you don't mind if I get these thoughts down, & then try to go back to the links as time allows.

Just a note. The interview is only 38 mins long. Part of a naptime, right? I hope you and kama will find time to listen. I do not know if NPR transcripts these interviews.

So, as a child I went to church & learned the Easter story & of course John 3:16 (I won an airplane ride as part of VBS by memorizing so many verses! WOW!) But it *never* made sense to me at all. Why would God love the world so much that he would let his only son die? Just no logic for me there. Why wouldn't he love the world so much that we were all happy & lived? Further evidence to me as a child that fathers made no sense.

In this vein, here is a review of Gibson's The Passion of the Christ by Earl Doherty. He addresses just this subject.

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/

( He is also famous for asking and answering other tough questions about the exisistance of a HJ [historical Jesus]. So, when you find the time...)

But anyway, now that I have learned other stories of Easter & some about the concept of seasonal sacrifice, I come to think of the Christian story of the crucifixion as such a typically Christian (violent) distortion. So sad.

Actually, the tortured, dying and resurrected god is an ancient pagan mystery religion concept going back to the discovery of agriculture.

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

Hey, there is also a very interesting interpretation of the crucifixion by Carolyn Myss. Anybody familiar with her? She looks at the archetypal symbolism of it. That Jesus' suffering & death on the cross represents a pschological surrendering. Giving in to what is & then finding the freedom to move on. That spoke to me bcz it reminds me of the 1st step in recovery & it also harkened my mind to the "Hanged One" Major Arcana card in Tarot ( I use Motherpeace, so if you are familiar, that is the image in my head when I say that).

Resurrection can be seen (at least) 2 ways. As a rebirth after one's actual physical death, in heaven (an actual place) with god, or, more esoterically, as a emotional dying and changing of direction and focus (rebirth) after any crisis in life that forces you to change and mature.

Thanks for your comments, Maria.

[DaryLLL]

If you look at the Jesus Puzzle website, and click on the review of The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, you can find a good discussion of the gospel story of Jesus' crucifixion in particular, as a midrash of Tanakh stories/themes.

It is arranged by sections, so you can easily click on "Crucifixion" (followed by Resurrection) if you don't want to read the whole article.

[Arduinna]

*not trying to hijack*

Dar, just wanted to post that with further research I found that the Greek method of "cruxifiction" was to clamp people to a flat board and leave them to die. This is from the book " The Ancient City life in classical Athens and Rome" by Peter Connolly Oxford University Press