Sneaky 7 Year Old

[AislinnB]

7 yo DD has very little impulse control and had issues with sneaking for awhile, but I thought it had gotten better. It seemed like we'd totally gotten past it. Today I found out I was very, very wrong. She sneaks food type things most (regardless of whether she's hungry or has food available) because it tends to be the easiest. I have had issues with her taking her baby brother's food when she has food on her own plate, eating flour, baking soda, baking powder, salt, sugar, stevia, extracts, flour in bowls my roommate leaves out after breading raw fish with it if I don't toss it immediately after he's done (or sometimes she'll sneak it while he's still cooking but has turned his back to get something out of the pantry), old food from plates in roommate's room, roommate's dairy loaded junk foods from the top cabinet over the sink (hardest cabinet to reach and DD is lactose intolerant), foods she doesn't even like and won't eat if I give them to her, her brother's teething tablets, toothpaste, and I've caught her many times getting into non food items that aren't hers (she destroyed my printer and sewing machine a few months ago by tinkering with them in the middle of the night when everyone was sleeping). Basically whatever she can get her hands on and thinks she probably isn't allowed to do, she does it as soon as someone's back is turned for a moment. She says she does these things because she likes being sneaky.

Today, I was cleaning up in the bedroom and I realized that she'd been playing with things from the top shelf in the closet (mostly my roommate's collectibles and my private documents). I decided to look around and make sure nothing else had been messed with before I talked to her about it, and started finding roommate's childhood books stashed around the room (they had been packed and sealed in a couple boxes, which she opened). Then I looked under the bed and found a stash of empty plastic allergy medicine dispensers (those single dose things). They were from the shelf over the refrigerator where the roommate keeps medicines for his DS. I freaked and searched the rest of the house to make sure there wasn't anything else and found an empty bottle of my roommate's antacids (he said it had been about half full), empty children's vitamin bottles, and a couple little empty tubes of toddler toothpaste.

In the past, I have tried to give her other outlets for being "sneaky," give her more privacy, spaces that are just hers, we've talked about why taking or touching other people's stuff without permission isn't okay, we've talked about why eating old food isn't okay, why it isn't okay to steal her brother's food, I've taken away items, I've made her return items she's taken, I've done everything I can think of to do. She has seen a therapist, who was pretty much useless. DD has given herself food poisoning twice, and now she's been eating medications. I'm afraid she's going to kill herself. What do I do? Anyone BTDT? 

[4evermom]

For starters, get all medicines and vitamins locked up.

I'd also put a lock on roommates room and ask him to be mindful of what kinds of dirty dishes he leaves around while you get a handle on this.

What does she do with the less edible things she takes (baking soda, toothpaste, etc)? Is she sensory seeking? Sometimes more opportunity to be messy helps if kids are sensory seeking.

I gotta get ready for work but hopefully others will have more ideas...

[AislinnB]

Originally Posted by 4evermom 

For starters, get all medicines and vitamins locked up.

I'd also put a lock on roommates room and ask him to be mindful of what kinds of dirty dishes he leaves around while you get a handle on this.

What does she do with the less edible things she takes (baking soda, toothpaste, etc)? Is she sensory seeking? Sometimes more opportunity to be messy helps if kids are sensory seeking.

I gotta get ready for work but hopefully others will have more ideas...

I locked up the medicines today after I found out. I asked my roommate about locking his room, and he says no. He's furious right now and is contemplating kicking us out over DD damaging some of his collectibles and stealing his books, so he's not going to be willing to do much bending right now. I'm on a waiting list for low income housing, so our options on are pretty limited in regards to living arrangements. I try to pick up after him as quickly as possible, but I'm responsible for all of the household chores with a toddler underfoot, and he is kind of messy (the roommate, not the toddler). 

The less edible things, she eats. I have caught her with mouth fulls of all of that at one point or another. I have to put the toothpaste on her toothbrush for her these days because if I leave it out, she will eat the whole tube.
 

[4evermom]

Well, that's a tough situation with the roommate and all.

I'm thinking when your dd says she likes being sneaky, she just doesn't know what is up with her impulses and/or cravings and is just using a word that she has heard. Once when I asked a kid why he was doing something rough with a piece of equipment at work, he answered "I was trying to break it." I really don't think he was trying to break it but I think he said that because he thought that is what I thought he was doing. Sometimes kids would rather claim they meant to do that than they did it accidentally or had an overwhelming urge that they don't understand.

Not to judge whether or not your child has special needs, but you might want to check out the Special Needs Forum. The mamas there have a ton of experience and practical advice about sensory issues and other things. I used to read over there to get ideas for feeding my ds who has mild oral sensory issues that made feeding him challenging.

[philomom]

Much more supervision! And a stern talking to about why it isn't okay to mess with other people's stuff.

[mom2mygirls]

My daughter used to steal food until I had her seen by someone and she is now on meds for her ADHD my advice to you would be find another therapist that you do like.

[Elcie]

Years ago I knew a woman whose DD had Pica -- she'd eat a box of corn starch for example. I would inquire if medical reasons might trigger the behavior.

[fiddlefern]

It seems to me these behaviors go WAY beyond behavioral and are medical and/or psychological in nature.  It definitely sounds like Pica (eating non-food items) and it is a major major red flag (and dangerous!  I have worked with developmentally disabled adults who sneak and eat paperclips, batteries, etc. and end up in the ER when not closely supervised).  I think you need to start with a doctor for possible nutritional or other medical reasons, and also get a referral for the reasons for stashing others' valuables. It sounds like you are having financial difficulties, but really I don't think this can wait.  Probably not what you want to hear when you're already stressed and it sounds like your roommate is not being helpful.  My heart goes out to you.  This is really difficult stuff. 

After you make that call for the doctor's appointment, I would also visit the special needs forum.  Lots of wisdom there.  You might have to wait awhile before someone with helpful experience reads your post (slower moving forum) but you'll probably find support and good ideas.

I wish you the best and would love to hear an update.

[provocativa]

please also visit the allergy forum here.  lactose intolerance is a sign of wheat and gluten allergy, it is not dependent on a positive allergy test, but on the fact that a lectin in wheat, called wheat germ agglutin (i may have spelled that incorrectly) causes the cells of the small intestine to turn over too rapidly.  they then don't make enzymes to digest other foods properly, particularly lactose because lactase is produced on the brush border of the small intestine.  excessive impulse control and compulsive eating are symptoms.

a good natural remedy for pica is edible clay.

[AislinnB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philomom 

Much more supervision! And a stern talking to about why it isn't okay to mess with other people's stuff.

This has been going on for awhile. I assume you mean well, but I'm actually not totally oblivious. She isn't lacking supervision. I try to keep her in my line of sight as often as possible. I even make her sit in the door way when I go to the bathroom these days because I'm afraid of what she'll do if she's out of my sight. With most of the things she has gotten into in the last couple months, she has done it with an adult in the room, or when I'm in the laundry room (which is off the kitchen and too small for more than one person). She just waits until my back is turned, like when I'm cooking, doing the laundry, or running after my or my roommate's toddler, or she gets up in the middle of the night when I'm sleeping. I have very poor vision so my peripheral vision when wearing glasses is pretty worthless (stopped wearing contacts awhile back when the ongoing expense became too impractical), and mild hearing loss. She knows that, and takes full advantage of it. Stand to my side and you can do pretty much whatever you want quietly and I'll have no clue unless I turn my head in time. I do my best to keep my eyes on her as much as I can, but sometimes it is necessary to look at something else, like the other children or the food I need to cook. And yes, I've had more stern talks with her than I can count. She knows it isn't okay to mess with other people's stuff. She knows why it isn't okay. She also knows why it isn't okay to lie or eat things that aren't meant to be eaten. She does it regardless. If this matter was as simple as watching her more and telling why what she's doing isn't okay, I wouldn't have made this post.

Anyways, thank you everyone for the advice. I ended up bringing DD into my old psychologist who is saying Oppositional Defiant Disorder. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I keep reading the symptoms and though a lot of them fit (temper tantrums, being argumentative, refusing to obey rules, blaming others for mistakes), the whole picture just sounds like a terror to be around, and DD really isn't. She isn't generally negative at all aside from when she loses her cool or gets caught doing something she shouldn't. Maybe that's what I have to look forward to. It sure fits her father.

I had her tested for nearly everything imaginable a couple years ago and again last year, and her doctor says she's perfectly healthy, though we did not address food allergies at the time. I have food intolerances (dairy, gluten, and soy) so at one point I thought maybe it would be helpful to try an elimination diet with her. She was in public school at the time, and was sneaking food from other students the entire time, which made it pretty much impossible. I tried again a few months back, but she continued sneaking our roommate's food and food off the toddlers' plates, so again, the elimination diet flopped since I was never able to successfully eliminate anything. I do know that she reacts very poorly to food coloring, excess sugar, and of course dairy, all of which I avoid anyways. I had been hoping to try it again after we move (whenever that happens), as we will be living alone then and it will be easier to control what foods are available. I have an appointment scheduled for a check-up soon (mostly out of concern that she might have done some damage to herself with everything she has put in her body), and I'll bring up food allergies then.

Right now I'm keeping her within arm's reach whenever possible when I'm doing something where I can't keep my eyes directly on her, and searching her frequently (which feels degrading, but at the same time, I don't want to risk her getting ahold of something I wasn't aware was around, ingesting it, and getting sick or dying). I've stopped doing any cleaning in the roommate's room, much to his chagrin, as that is when she found the opportunity to get into mischief in there most recently (I was bringing her in with me because I didn't trust her alone). I have not come up with a way of keeping her out of trouble when I'm sleeping. I don't think she's been getting up lately, but I really don't know. I'm looking into getting an alarm for the door, but it's going to be at least a month before I can do that. The psychologist's main suggestion right now is to continue keeping her in my line of sight and that I be careful not to react emotionally when DD misbehaves because she's looking for power over me and reacting emotionally gives it to her. When it comes to arguing, blaming, and most rule breaking, I can handle it fine, but admittedly, I react pretty emotionally when I realize she's ingested something that could make her sick. I have a very difficult time not freaking out when she does that. It terrifies me. Also, she seems to really love provoking our roommate, which isn't difficult, because her presence alone ticks him off these days. I'm trying to keep them from interacting as much as possible until we're able to move, but that isn't going well.

[Ellien C]

This. Sounds medical/psych. Beyond anything that punishment will solve. Do you have a Do you could start with? And find a new therapist. There are many and each will have a different approach. 

Originally Posted by fiddlefern 

It seems to me these behaviors go WAY beyond behavioral and are medical and/or psychological in nature.  It definitely sounds like Pica (eating non-food items) and it is a major major red flag (and dangerous!  I have worked with developmentally disabled adults who sneak and eat paperclips, batteries, etc. and end up in the ER when not closely supervised).  I think you need to start with a doctor for possible nutritional or other medical reasons, and also get a referral for the reasons for stashing others' valuables. It sounds like you are having financial difficulties, but really I don't think this can wait.  Probably not what you want to hear when you're already stressed and it sounds like your roommate is not being helpful.  My heart goes out to you.  This is really difficult stuff. 

After you make that call for the doctor's appointment, I would also visit the special needs forum.  Lots of wisdom there.  You might have to wait awhile before someone with helpful experience reads your post (slower moving forum) but you'll probably find support and good ideas.

I wish you the best and would love to hear an update.

[Sarasyn]

A friend of mine who used to be a behavioral psychologist for children made a point when I was going through the same thing with my own daughter...and I mean the EXACT same thing.  She's never given herself food poisoning, but she has eaten an entire bottle of Tumms and has gotten into other bubble package medicines like your daughter has done.  She ate toothpaste.  She used to sneak food in the middle of the night and a whole bunch of other things.  It was really a nightmare.

The conclusion wasn't Pica, but that it was likely something in our situation.  You can't just look at a kid's behavior to tell you what's wrong because there are so many external things that could be going wrong.  For example, a lot of times when kids act up in the way your daughter and mine both have is a matter of feeling secure.  Children who feel insecure or abandoned tend to steal, hoard, and get into things they know they're not allowed or are only allowed to have a limited amount of because they know they can't have it later.  In the case of a lot of what your daughter is eating, I understand the draw.  Much of it is sweet or has a unique taste.  That's one of the problems I have with toddler tooth paste.  It kind of tastes like candy, so my daughter used to eat it all the time.  Antacids tend to be the same way, just as children's vitamins are.  With medications, even a seven year old can think they're candy, or maybe she's done what my daughter's done, told herself she's sick so she needed them to feel better.  My daughter got into some allergy medications I had because "she had a stuffy nose".  Mind you, I hadn't heard her so much as sniffle once, but in her mind, she was sick and needed the medications.

What I would suggest is look at what else in your situation might be causing her stress.  Is her father still in the picture?  That's what did it for my daughter.  Her father has been absentee in her life for quite a while, especially on military deployments.  He never so much as called to talk to her.  A lot of kids, especially those in school, tend to get the idea that the father is supposed to provide for the family.  If he's not then maybe she's reacting to that and taking it really hard.  Maybe she feels she has to take these things because she won't get a chance to have them later.  My daughter used to do that with everything.  She'd steal and break things I'd had since I was a child.  She'd occasionally get destructive with things.  I was advised by a counselor to punish her because she's just acting out, but what I didn't realize is punishing her was only causing even more stress.

From the sounds of your situation, there's not very much stability there.  You're living under someone else's house and someone else's rules, which may make her feel like her parents can't provide a home for her.  With the low-income housing situation, I'm guessing money is tight for your family.  She could be reacting to that too.  Children aren't built to handle that kind of stress, and no matter how much you try to shield them from it, they still know and react.  Trust me, I know.  It's not a sign that you're a bad mother, something my counselor had me reminding myself of daily.  It's also entirely possible that it's got nothing to do with food allergies or some other disorder like ADHD or Oppositional Defiant Disorder.  From the sounds of it, your daughter isn't trying to be defiant.  She's just trying to find a way to cope with her own stress, and this is the only way she can figure out how.

This is what I did with my daughter.  We started out with sitting down to discuss our situation.  It wasn't easy for me.  I had to be open and honest with her.  When we finally had the discussion we were in a similar situation with the room mate, so that made me feel even worse.  I explained to her why we were living with my friend.  I explained that we didn't have a lot of money, but that was okay because we still had a roof over our heads and we would be in our own place as soon as we could afford it.  I told her about all the ways I was working to provide her a safe, healthy environment, and that included topics I really didn't want to get into, like child support, my boyfriend's job, and everything else.  I asked her how she felt about all of that.  She told me everything she was concerned about and I did my best to ease her concerns and point out all the ways in which we were handling each situation.  Then I gently brought up her behaviors.  I asked her why she was sneaking food, taking things that didn't belong to her, and everything else.  At first she told me the food was because she was hungry (which wasn't surprising because she never ate her meals) or answered with, "Because you guys NEVER let me have it!"  I asked her how we could help her stop sneaking food.  We came up with a whole long list of reasons and threw out anything that was completely ridiculous or impossible, like her suggestion to just be allowed to eat whatever she wants, whenever she wants it, regardless of if it's hers.  We narrowed it down to anything reasonable and realistic, then we tried the one she was most happy with.  When that didn't work, we tried the next one.  For the food thing, I got her a special box of food that was just hers.  She could snack on it as often as she wanted, even if it spoiled her dinner.  The only challenge was making sure the box was never less than half-full so she could feel confident that there was always enough.  It took a while, but she stopped needing it after a while.  We didn't go over all our family finances.  She doesn't need to know things like how much our water bill, how much rent is, or how much we spend on food with each grocery trip.  Instead we talk about budgeting.  I tell her when we don't have money for things and why.  For example, we don't have the money to go to the play group because our electricity bill was more than we expected.  We'll go to the next play date as soon as my boyfriend or I gets paid.

We had a relapse with this behavior recently when my boyfriend lost his job right before Christmas.  It was rough for a while, but we're starting to work through it again.  I've found the most important part of the whole process is making sure she feels secure, stable, and safe.  As long as she doesn't feel like she could lose everything she has at any time, she does pretty well.  It hasn't been an easy road, but we're getting there.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have her checked out for other things.  Check out the food allergies.  Look into Pica.  Either could be the problem, or they could be adding to a problem created for another reason.  Do your research when your child is pegged with a psychological problem.  I think her pediatrician mentioned something about some kind of defiance disorder, but it didn't sound anything like what she was really going through.  You might feel the same way about the diagnosis they push on your daughter.  Try and get a second opinion, if you're able, or do a little research on your own.  I'm just glad I was lucky enough to have a good friend that's used to dealing with "problem children" before and assured me that her problem probably wasn't defiance because she wasn't doing it to be defiant.  She wasn't using it as a way to assert any kind of control over me or to push back against my rules (which is why defiant children do the things they do).  She was just trying to deal with a situation that she wasn't mentally or emotionally prepared to handle.  She may even be convinced she's a bad kid because she can't control these impulses, and feel very negative about herself because of it, but be unable to find a way to express it.  She may even feel like she's a problem or like she's the reason for your lack of stability, but on the outside she doesn't show any signs of thinking negatively of herself, so you'd have no way of knowing to look deeper.  It also sounds like it's turning into an endless cycle because the more things get stressful, the worse she's likely to get.  The worse she gets, the more stressful everything will be.

Trust me, if she's going through the same thing as my daughter went through, things will get better.  Once you're in your own house and don't have a room mate that's frustrated and angry at her all the time, things will get a lot easier.  As much as I can sympathize with your room mate's feelings, they may just be making the situation a million times worse.  It sounds like your room mate isn't willing to consider stepping back, approaching things from a calm, peaceful standpoint, and trying to deal with your daughter in a loving way.  Kids act like this because they're going through something, whether it's related to diet, or some invisible pain from the situation that they can't express.  Getting away from someone who is so negative and angry towards her will only help no matter what the cause.  Hopefully you'll be lucky and end up with housing soon.  Otherwise, take a deep breath, step away from the situation, and put some real consideration to the outside stresses in her life.  See which ones you can control and try to eliminate them.  For the ones you can't, think how they may be effecting her and try and find a way to talk to her about them.  Maybe you can help her find a more appropriate way to cope.  Talk to the therapist (or find a new one and talk to them) about your concerns for the stresses in her life that may be causing her problems.  I would mention your room mate's anger and frustration here.  See if her therapist can focus on helping her find safer, more productive coping mechanisms instead of focusing on a diagnosis.  It's possible that with more information and a focus on giving her other outlets, the therapist might find a more accurate picture of what's really causing her to act this way instead of slapping a diagnosis on her and calling it done.

I hope some of this helps, and, please, please, PLEASE, if you ever need anyone to talk to, vent to, ask for help, whatever, don't hesitate to ask.  From the sounds of it, your daughter's going through some similar things that my daughter went through, and sometimes it really just helps to talk to someone who's been there, even if you realize there's nothing you can do but wait for the solutions you've put in place start to make a difference.