Need to vent to a supportive group - Page 2

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Jules, it's certainly possible that, for whatever reason, you were unable to produce enough milk to feed your baby. You say you did everything right, and I believe you.

I also believe we are lucky to have formula for moms who can't produce enough milk.

But there is usually (not always) a clear reason WHY a mom can't produce enough milk, such as improper latch-on, not nursing enough, not getting enough rest, dehydration, having undiagnosed illness that inhibits milk production (such as celiac disease, hashimoto's thyroiditis, diabetes, and other autoimmune disorders), having been given medication that inhibits milk production (like magnesium sulfate), even stress can be a major factor for some women.

Another issue is separation of mom and baby.  I produced way less milk when I put my baby to sleep in a crib.  Sleeping with my baby and wearing the baby instead of pushing him in a stroller = instant 30% increase in milk production. 

I'm not writing this to imply that you didn't do any of this. I'm writing it for the benefit of any reader who assumes it's common and normal for a healthy nursing mom to not produce enough milk for her baby.

[jules33]

Lokidoki...I did read your post.  It was condescending, arrogant and hateful.  And, it did not belong on this forum.  This is a forum about vaccinating.  

Taximom.... I didn't infer anything negative from your post :)  I usually keep my mouth shut and move on when I see stuff like this, but this one hurt too much.  And I also think it's important to educate and support moms who have to formula feed.  The thing is, what you said is true. so many things can impact breastfeeding, but we really only know the tip of the iceberg.  When the medical community states that 99% of women can BF and if they can't, they're just not doing something right, they do us all a disservice.  We need research into why this is happening.  Like I said in my post, I did everything "right" (although I hate that phrase!)...including co-sleeping, etc... but the most amazing LC in the Boston area was dumfounded by my case.  She also said that she is seeing more and more cases like mine...crunchy healthy moms who home birth, co-sleep, etc etc... and have little to no supply.  We need to research toxins, environmental issues, etc...instead of blaming the victims.  The unfortunate thing is, and the thing that a lot of people don't understand, is that it actually is VERY common lately, for a healthy, nursing mom not to produce enough milk for her baby.  

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by jules33 

Lokidoki...I did read your post.  It was condescending, arrogant and hateful.  And, it did not belong on this forum.  This is a forum about vaccinating.  

Taximom.... I didn't infer anything negative from your post :)  I usually keep my mouth shut and move on when I see stuff like this, but this one hurt too much.  And I also think it's important to educate and support moms who have to formula feed.  The thing is, what you said is true. so many things can impact breastfeeding, but we really only know the tip of the iceberg.  When the medical community states that 99% of women can BF and if they can't, they're just not doing something right, they do us all a disservice.  We need research into why this is happening.  Like I said in my post, I did everything "right" (although I hate that phrase!)...including co-sleeping, etc... but the most amazing LC in the Boston area was dumfounded by my case.  She also said that she is seeing more and more cases like mine...crunchy healthy moms who home birth, co-sleep, etc etc... and have little to no supply.  We need to research toxins, environmental issues, etc...instead of blaming the victims.  The unfortunate thing is, and the thing that a lot of people don't understand, is that it actually is VERY common lately, for a healthy, nursing mom not to produce enough milk for her baby.  

What I was discussing was choices without education behind them ~ and my frustration with friends around me who HAVE made lazy decisions. Perhaps you can (maybe even at a later time) take yourself out of the equation and read again. I was stating that my friends completely QUIT BF after only 6 weeks (didn't continue and supplement with formula or even seek additional help) because the doctors all told them it was a lack of milk production. The babies in these instances were thriving (gaining weight and growing on target) ~ yet they were wanting to nurse every 1 1/2 hours...this is not a failure to thrive or a failure to produce milk...it is a failure of education in these instances. I was not talking about YOU or YOUR instance but in my frustration with MY experience. I see the same thing about vaccinations ~ I have many friends who come to me and ask me about my experience with not vaxing, ultimately choose not to educate themselves and then fuss about having a baby that has severe fever/vax reactions. It is hard and frustrating when there is not more of a drive to educate first.

It just so happens that with my first son I supplemented with formula because I WAS LAZY ~ I took what my doctor was saying at face value when my son was a newborn and did not have the support of a great lactation consultant. Lucky for me I did my research, applied it to my situation and became convicted enough about my decisions before DS2 and we have had complete and total success this time around. Certainly this is not the experience for everyone ~ but it has been for me. I fully admit that I was lazy without intending to be ~ I had no clue that a baby could/would need to be fed so often as a newborn because my doctor and lacation consultant were all stating the "2-3 hour" rule. This is not nor was my "vent" before a statement about YOU and your situation...it was a statement about the friends around me that have been frustrating me. They simply stopped BF and went to formula feeding because their newborns wanted to be fed every 1 1/2 hours ~ that is FAR different than a case of "not producing enough milk".

[Taximom5]

Umm, I think you two (Jules and Lokidoki) might actually be on the same page here...

Lokidoki, I know EXACTLY what you mean, but I hesitate to brand moms as "lazy" if nobody ever bothered to tell them that it's often necessary to nurse more than every 90 minutes, and no, it doesn't mean they don't have enough milk.  How can it be LAZY to believe the advice given by your doctor if you've never heard anyone contradict that "knowledge?"

I blame the medical profession.  I got SCOLDED by the nurse for nursing #2 son on demand, which turned out to be every 20-30 minutes, which, good girl that I am, I duly notated on the chart.  She insisted that I should not feed him more often than every 2 hours.  She had me in tears, but I did keep it together enough to ask her if SHE wanted to teach him to tell time.

But then the doctor came in, and because the baby had not peed at 8 hours old, he insisted that I give him formula, in spite of the fact that I was already producing milk, and we could hear audible sucking/swallowing sounds from the baby as he nursed.  I even threatened to squirt the doctor in the face.

This wasn't that long ago. 

Jules, that must have been awful.  I think you bring up a very important point:  is there something medical going on that is inhibiting milk production in new moms (besides the already-recognized history of medical stupidity where breastfeeding is concerned, I mean)?

I didn't produce any milk at all for the first 5 days of #1 son's life.  I pumped every 3 hours around the clock, and got NUTHIN', not even a single drop of colostrum, until the end of the 5th day.

I had been given magnesium sulfate during labor, which apparently can inhibit milk production.  My hypothyroidism was not well-managed, so that was another strike against milk production.  And my baby had a reaction to the hep B shot, which resulted in his not opening his eyes for the first week.

I don't think there's anything in my experience that is necessarily duplicated in yours, Jules.

And yet--I wonder...could this inhibited milk production be a sign of some kind of sub-clinical autoimmune disorder?  You could be right about environmental toxins.

When an infant is exposed to a virus, the mother's breast responds by instantly manufacturing antibodies to that virus.  I wonder if an infant's being vaxed at 4 hours old for hep B can somehow screw up the milk production process?

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Umm, I think you two (Jules and Lokidoki) might actually be on the same page here...

Lokidoki, I know EXACTLY what you mean, but I hesitate to brand moms as "lazy" if nobody ever bothered to tell them that it's often necessary to nurse more than every 90 minutes, and no, it doesn't mean they don't have enough milk.  How can it be LAZY to believe the advice given by your doctor if you've never heard anyone contradict that "knowledge?"

I use the term lazy in that ~ I felt that in hindsight I was being lazy even though I was listening to a doctor. Nursing a baby every 90 minutes is tough work ~ especially when you might have other children or you work (I do not but for working mom's I can imagine that breastfeeding is very sacrificing). I think making the choice to listen to the medical profession to "replace" something natural for something like formula and/or vaccination is in fact lazy if you are doing it just because they say to do it (even if you are doing it with the best of intentions). I am not saying it with as much negative conotation as seems to have been taken (which seems to happen with computer conversations). In the particular cases I referenced ~ they are indeed being lazy and I do mean that they are not BF their children because they did not want to put forth the effort to do it and did not try everything to continue BF or even try to do both and they were not cases of "lack of milk"...(and I could go on but this is not a discussion regarding BF children).

In a broader sense ~ and regarding the vaccine issue ~ I think that it is "lazy" to rely upon others to make educated choices. It is easy to say "my doctor told me to do it" and much more difficult to research and read and dig deep ~ and make the decision because the time has been spent to make an educated decision (not because a doctor told you so). I respect the decision of others to vaccinate their children when they make an educated decision to vaccinate (because I can see standpoints from where there can be enough information to back this decision).

And indeed ~ I do not feel that Jules and I have positions that are different ~ what I took issue with was her defending the instances I have experienced recently within my group of friends ~ which is not a lack of milk production at all and is incredibly frustrating for me to sit idly by and watch.

[Taximom5]

But, Loki, how would they even know that nursing every 90 minutes--or more-- would work, if their doctor is telling them it won't?

If you go to the doctor for an illness, and he gives you a diagnosis and "solution" (i.e., medication), do you look it upto see if he's wrong?  Okay, I WOULD, but most people don't--it never occurs to them, any more than it occurs to them to doublecheck the plumber's diagnosis.

99% of us are operating under the illusion that doctors know about breastfeeding!  OBGYNs think it's a feeding issue, and therefore the pediatricians' turf. But peds  1) are taught by formula company reps and don't realize they are GROSSLY misinformed, or 2) think it's a mother's body issue, and therefore the OBGYNS' turf.

Im a huge LLL fan, but have run into some unfortunately unpleasant characters there, who gave the w hole organization a bad image in my little town.  Thank heavens I found one who was wonderful, but what about the mums who run into bad apples every way they turn?  There are an awful lot of them.....

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

But, Loki, how would they even know that nursing every 90 minutes--or more-- would work, if their doctor is telling them it won't?

If you go to the doctor for an illness, and he gives you a diagnosis and "solution" (i.e., medication), do you look it upto see if he's wrong?  Okay, I WOULD, but most people don't--it never occurs to them, any more than it occurs to them to doublecheck the plumber's diagnosis.

99% of us are operating under the illusion that doctors know about breastfeeding!  OBGYNs think it's a feeding issue, and therefore the pediatricians' turf. But peds  1) are taught by formula company reps and don't realize they are GROSSLY misinformed, or 2) think it's a mother's body issue, and therefore the OBGYNS' turf.

Im a huge LLL fan, but have run into some unfortunately unpleasant characters there, who gave the w hole organization a bad image in my little town.  Thank heavens I found one who was wonderful, but what about the mums who run into bad apples every way they turn?  There are an awful lot of them.....

Ultimately I think with regards to BF and vaccinations ~ it is the easy aka lazy thing to make that assumption. YES ~ people do it all the time (assume the doctor knows everything about everything). I did that with my first child at first (started to get wise about 4 months into it and started researching on my own and making my own convictions). Not to further hijack the thread ~ but my friends I talked about in particular HAVE been told by me and a few others that what their babies were doing had nothing to do with lack of milk production. They did not look into it further and decided to take the word of the doctors simply because they are doctors which I think in the end comes out to being a lazy approach (like it or not). I am venting here ~ and like I said...I (in my opinion) took the lazy approach with the first 4 months of DS1's life. I did not do it knowingly but once I look back I see that I was very aware of the advice around me urging me to not supplement with formula (my sister and friends) and to not vaccinate (previously stopped vaxing my pets before I had children for much of the same reasons)...

Ultimately I think that the choice to take a doctor's advice at face value is an "easy" or otherwise "lazy" approach to medical care. Agree or disagree ~ it is okay

I do not expect everyone to agree with that...and it is really okay. Like I have said many times ~ I put my prior self when I first had DS1 into that category so know that I am pointing that finger at myself too.

[Taximom5]

Okay, I see your point, and mostly agree with it, too.

I guess in my family, and my husband's as well, doctors have always been revered, and it is pretty much considered heresy to think that you would actually second-guess the expert---arguing with the pediatrician is kinda like arguing with the Pope.   I'm kind of the black sheep of the family, daring to think that I might know better than the expert who went to Medical School.

And I see the same dang attitude in so many of my friends and colleagues, too.  Just this week, one of my colleagues was telling me how his 1-year-old has his first ear infection, and why he is therefore on antibiotics, and before I could stop myself, "but, most ear infections are viral, nor bacterial, look it up!" popped out of my mouth.

My colleague was understandably quite ticked off, and muttered, "well, I'll be sure to tell the pediatrician that," rather sarcastically.

And I can't blame him for being ticked off.

Or can I?

(Sorry if this hijacks the thread further!!)

 

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Okay, I see your point, and mostly agree with it, too.

I guess in my family, and my husband's as well, doctors have always been revered, and it is pretty much considered heresy to think that you would actually second-guess the expert---arguing with the pediatrician is kinda like arguing with the Pope.   I'm kind of the black sheep of the family, daring to think that I might know better than the expert who went to Medical School.

And I see the same dang attitude in so many of my friends and colleagues, too.  Just this week, one of my colleagues was telling me how his 1-year-old has his first ear infection, and why he is therefore on antibiotics, and before I could stop myself, "but, most ear infections are viral, nor bacterial, look it up!" popped out of my mouth.

My colleague was understandably quite ticked off, and muttered, "well, I'll be sure to tell the pediatrician that," rather sarcastically.

And I can't blame him for being ticked off.

Or can I?

(Sorry if this hijacks the thread further!!)

 

Ultimately ~ obviously ~ it is their own decision to either question or not question the authority of a doctor (or second guess...or whatever one would call it). Like I said before ~ I (personally) feel it is taking the easy way out. Who really wants to know the pros/cons and make the decision for themselves (thereby assuming the weight of the outcome ~ good and bad)? It is easy to take the advice of the doctor and then when something goes wrong ~ you blame the doctor...whereas when you make the best decision based upon your own education and research it ultimately becomes your own weight to carry. There are so many spectrums of life where you can apply this ~ from the foods you eat to trusting the FDA and CDC, etc. And obviously there are places where you take assumed risk and have to trust to some degree...or choose to be "lazy" (as I have done myself on some particular areas because obviously one only has so much time) and take information at face value. I think FAR too often we look to push the blame to other places and not shoulder it ourselves ~ perhaps the reason my term "lazy" got such attention. Good or bad ~ better or worse ~ choosing to listen to the advice of others (in whatever profession) and take it at face value without any comprehension of what you are accepting is indeed a lazy approach. No matter the profession ~

I could go on and on but essentially I think we (as a society) have gotten complacent in the regard that we take the word of others rather than recognizing we need to really seek what is best for ourselves and our families. I am not saying that the advice and direction of others is of no value ~ but it is only valuable when put together with our own application and recognition of our own circumstances. For instance ~ I send my child to a public school (our neighborhood elementary school) and he has done very well in kindergarten this year...but his teachers can only do so much and without the support at home to continue his learning and growing in his education...he would not excell. I feel that health care is much the same ~ I take my children to the doctor but that is only 30 mins (at best) of time with my children ~ I see them daily and know what works best for them. If they get sick with something my first step is to apply my own research regarding whatever they might have instead of running to the doctor to get antibiotics (neither of my sons have actually ever had antibiotics).

Granted ~ I am very aware that it is not the norm to take this approach...thus my term of "lazy"...and yes, I do think it is lazy, easy, etc. Whether one knows to do it or not...we are all responsible for ourselves and our own health ~ and it is likely we would all be in much better health (as a society) if this approach was taken.