Why French Parents Are Superior... - Page 3

[Imakcerka]

Thanks for the article.
 

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

It took me a minute to dig it up, but there was a similar article that was popular when my oldest was a toddler, so this more recent article isn't exactly groundbreaking material.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632992/Is-Maman-mean-or-magnifique.html

I honestly don't think I could stomach raising my kids that way though.  I wouldn't treat my dog that way.  But then again, there are lots of parents here in the states that do worse.

[erigeron]

Okay, I bought the book that excerpts the original article, and I'm reading it now. She examines the ways that she, as an American living in Paris, sees the French methods of child-rearing as different. They don't do CIO so much as not picking the baby up the second s/he peeps at night--they recognize that babies come in and out of deeper and lighter sleep phases, and that if they can learn to fall back into deeper sleep on their own when they're small, they don't need a parent. Also, it isn't so much that they seek out opportunities to instill delayed gratification as that they treat their kids more like small adults who are simply expected to learn to delay gratification. For instance, mothers and children will bake together (great for kids to learn patience) and then they will wait to eat what they baked until snack time. I think some of the stuff regarding food is rather strict--three meals and one snack a day, even I can't get through the morning without a snack and I wouldn't expect a kid to, and that can't be good for breastfeeding. But on the whole, I think her point is that the parents she observed draw limits and are firm about them rather than giving in when the children protest. Also they are not focused on children hitting their milestones so much as experiencing life. For instance, they go to a swim class but it turns out it isn't about teaching the preschool-aged kids to swim, rather about letting them experience the water with their parents.

This is probably easier to do in France than the United States.

[journeymom]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

It took me a minute to dig it up, but there was a similar article that was popular when my oldest was a toddler, so this more recent article isn't exactly groundbreaking material.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632992/Is-Maman-mean-or-magnifique.html

Excellent, thanks for this.  Definitely a different perspective of the same idea. 

The 'Missed the Boat' thread deals with some of this. I do wish dh and I had done some things differently when my kids were little, to reclaim some of our adult life from our child-centered life.  But I really couldn't figure out how to do that without being cruel, or at least what I define as cruel.  

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

Okay, I bought the book that excerpts the original article, and I'm reading it now. She examines the ways that she, as an American living in Paris, sees the French methods of child-rearing as different. They don't do CIO so much as not picking the baby up the second s/he peeps at night--they recognize that babies come in and out of deeper and lighter sleep phases, and that if they can learn to fall back into deeper sleep on their own when they're small, they don't need a parent.

But, how is this "French" vs. "American"? I know American parents who do CIO. I know American parents who pick up their kids the instant they make a peep. I know American parents who do exactly what you're describing above. The "French vs. American" aspect of the article is probably the single aspect that annoys me the most. The author very much seems to be saying "this is what my friends and I do, therefore, this is American Parenting".

Also, it isn't so much that they seek out opportunities to instill delayed gratification as that they treat their kids more like small adults who are simply expected to learn to delay gratification. For instance, mothers and children will bake together (great for kids to learn patience) and then they will wait to eat what they baked until snack time.

But...but...so many baked goods are so much better when they're hot out of the oven! That's not just delaying gratification, imo - it's skipping gratification.

I think some of the stuff regarding food is rather strict--three meals and one snack a day, even I can't get through the morning without a snack and I wouldn't expect a kid to, and that can't be good for breastfeeding.

I find the food stuff really weird. Mind you, I have food issues, and I'm a bit paranoid about being overly controlling with food (my issues aren't actually from that, though). I'm very much an "eat when you're hungry" kind of parent. DH was raised with much more "wait until dinner" approach, and that's what he does with the kids...but he's also a compulsive snacker, so I'm not sold on it, yk? (One of my very few complaints about dh is that he'll start snacking from the pantry the minute he gets home, but get upset with the kids if they're hungry before dinner is ready. If he can't wait, why should they be expected to??)

But on the whole, I think her point is that the parents she observed draw limits and are firm about them rather than giving in when the children protest.

And, if that's what she'd said, I'd probably agree with her. After wading through the article, I basically got, "I was a clueless idiot, who didn't quite grasp that I was actually supposed to parent my children, until the perfect, albeit it snooty, French woke me up -and American parents are all just like me".

Oh, well - if people get something from it, they get something from it. It seemed like most of what she talked about was their awesome food rules, and how their chlidren would never drream of rooting around in the fridge when they're hungry. Since I have a completely different philosophy around food, that aspect didn't do anything for me. Most of the rest of it was very basic. The "wow - the French have all the answer" side of it was tedious. The gratuitous dig at the "snooty Parisiens" just made me shake my head. I still don't get why she's so in awe of parenting that apparently turns out people she doesn't like very much.

Also they are not focused on children hitting their milestones so much as experiencing life. For instance, they go to a swim class but it turns out it isn't about teaching the preschool-aged kids to swim, rather about letting them experience the water with their parents.

This is probably easier to do in France than the United States.

I'm not in the US or in France, but I've actually witnessed very little emphasis on hitting milestones in my life. I see it on tv, and in real life very occasionally, but it's pretty rare. (Mind you, I find the idea of taking a class to "let" my child experience the water with me kind of bizarre. I don't need a class to let me spend time with my kids.)

Maybe French parents are "superior" to American parents. I just didn't see any evidence of it in this article. And, I thought it was very poorly written, all around.

[erigeron]

I thought the title of the article was a little much. Maybe it was picked to get under people's skins deliberately. I don't know. I have one child and she's still a baby, so I am appreciating the book for its common-sense discussions of setting limits with kids. I like getting a lot of different perspectives to help me figure out what approach I want to take myself. For someone who's already been a parent for a while it's probably not as helpful. I agree that the all French are this way/all Americans are this way is kind of reductive, though just because it's not accurate in all cases doesn't mean there's nothing to be gained from a discussion of differences between the two cultures. In the book she does expand on general cultural elements that can feed into these tendencies, like how they approach birth, breastfeeding, day care, preschool, and I'm only midway through the book so I'm not sure what all else.

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

But...but...so many baked goods are so much better when they're hot out of the oven! That's not just delaying gratification, imo - it's skipping gratification.

  So true.  Seriously, if letting my daughter eat a warm chocolate chip cookie fresh out of the oven makes me a less than superior mother, then so be it.  

[nstewart]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

Okay, I bought the book that excerpts the original article, and I'm reading it now. She examines the ways that she, as an American living in Paris, sees the French methods of child-rearing as different. They don't do CIO so much as not picking the baby up the second s/he peeps at night--they recognize that babies come in and out of deeper and lighter sleep phases, and that if they can learn to fall back into deeper sleep on their own when they're small, they don't need a parent. Also, it isn't so much that they seek out opportunities to instill delayed gratification as that they treat their kids more like small adults who are simply expected to learn to delay gratification. For instance, mothers and children will bake together (great for kids to learn patience) and then they will wait to eat what they baked until snack time. I think some of the stuff regarding food is rather strict--three meals and one snack a day, even I can't get through the morning without a snack and I wouldn't expect a kid to, and that can't be good for breastfeeding. But on the whole, I think her point is that the parents she observed draw limits and are firm about them rather than giving in when the children protest. Also they are not focused on children hitting their milestones so much as experiencing life. For instance, they go to a swim class but it turns out it isn't about teaching the preschool-aged kids to swim, rather about letting them experience the water with their parents.

This is probably easier to do in France than the United States.

I'm with Stormbride.  I fail to see how this is a particularily French approach to parenting.  Everything that is described in the article seems very common, in my experience. I do agree with you however that the food thing is rather strict (if it is even true, it seems to also be a sweeping over-generalization) as I'd rather teach my son to eat when he's hungry, not to eat for the sake of eating because it "is time".

[NicaG]

I really think so many of the unpleasant trends in American parenting these days stem from a deep anxiety about our children's future economic security.  I live in a pretty high-pressure suburb of NYC, and I really feel like so many decisions about extracurricular activities and about parenting stem from a desire we all have to get our kids into the best possible colleges.  So that they don't end up in low-paying careers without proper health insurance, saddled with lifelong crippling student loan debt.  So that they have more choices and flexibility in life, like the flexibility to work part time and afford child care while they work.  So that they can save appropriately for retirement. I don't think Europeans feel this same kind of anxiety at all, because their educations systems work differently, and because affordable health care, education, and child care are provided by the state.  I would parent a lot differently if I knew that my adult children would have guaranteed access to these things.

[Linda on the move]

I finally read the right link.

I still didn't care for the article.

On one hand, there were some tidbits that were good, but they are better stated in this very old and very AP friendly article:

http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

The article that was posted was full of incredible generalizations about both American parents and French parents.  I know way to many Americans who don't fit her mold.

I agree that there is nothing french about leaving babies to "self sooth" ie cry, and that feeding a toddler on a schedule is old style American and British parenting -- there's nothing esp. french about it.

I'm over the whole "every thing in America is bad and we should copy the rest of the world" trend. I like it here, partly because we are free mentally to do what we want. In so many countries, even politically free countries, people really don't think outside the box. I like living where every body does their own thing.

I live on a street where the families all parent their kids in different ways. There is no "American" way to raise kids. I'm fine with that.

[erigeron]

Thanks for that article, Linda. Very interesting.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I live on a street where the families all parent their kids in different ways. There is no "American" way to raise kids. I'm fine with that.

Maybe that's what bugged me so much. I'm not American, but I feel the same way about a "Canadian" way to raise kids. I live in a townhouse complex, and there are about six families with "school age" (elementary school) kids, just in our little section.  None of us do things the same way. I know at least one family spanks occasionally. We try to be GD, and AP and homeschool, etc. Another family is quite punitive (imo), but has a strict "no hitting" rule for everyone, including the parents. We aim for cooking from scratch, mostly whole foods, and minimal treats (don't always do well with that last), and are quite loose about mealtimes, snacks, etc. At least three other families that I know of have pantries full of processed food, and one of them has very strict "only at mealtimes" rules.

I don't think any of us reflect "the" Canadian way to parent. And, honestly - most of the kids I'm talking about show every sign of being happy, healthy, etc. and all those homes have a lot of love. I think the kids will all be just fine.

[changes]

Originally Posted by grahamsmom98 

When we were in France, we did not see one child behaving badly in restaurants, parks or museums.  Not one.

Oh, wait, I should clarify that.  We never saw a single child behaving badly that was European.  The parents were speaking to (not yelling at) their children in French (we also heard German, Dutch and Danish).

The only badly behaved kids we saw were being yelled at in English (American, not British) and were not being kept under control. We saw American children at the Louvre, Musee d'Orsay and other museums ignoring rules (because their parents weren't paying attention to them, other than to yell) and fussing at restaurants ("I don't like this junk, I wanna go to MacDonald's!!).

*** That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it probably just means that you have not witnessed it. Also, you may consider that people in another culture/country may be more concerned about what other people/the environment thinks about them/their parenting/their children's behaviour; they may either be more strict because of that, using punishment/rewards techniques more, or be 'clever' and not eat outside when they know their kids might be 'misbehaving' (usually, or that day specifically), another reason might be that in many restaurants there they do not heartiy welcome children and/or that parents go (eat) out while children are babysitted at home by a sitter or a grandparent (= pretty 'European' habi), etc.

This is a broad view of things, but I think European children ARE more polite.  When we saw how the French were around their children, we knew that that was how we were going to raise any children we had (we were on our honeymoon and then on an anniversary trip).  Except for the cio (which, remember, AMERICAN society advocates, as well, so don't go dumping on other cultures because of that thought), we have done that and are pleased with how it has worked.     

As AllisonR says, "Not interrupting, waiting your turn, sharing, very social attributes are stressed here, at home and school, way more so than educational subjects. Also looking at the long term picture, instead of the 5 second sound bite."

European parents are more about actual parenting, I think, than about trying to be their child's friend and not setting limits.

*** Yet again, the ways in which children are EXPECTED (by parents and society) to be polite may not be as generally ideal as one might think... And I do not think it is wrong for children to find the social attitude vibe in an environment by their own experiences, together with good example by and reminders/explanations (but not order or conditional expectatipons!) of parents or broader society.

[Linda on the move]

We were out to eat both last night and tonight and at both restaurants there were quite a few children. These were nice restaurants that are known for being lovely places dine rather than quick places to grab a bite. I think it's safe to assume the children were mostly Americans. They were all well behaved. Seriously. Every single child.

I was noticing it because of this thread.

I have to wonder how tired an American child on vacation dealing with jet lag would be at a Museum in Europe. I think judging the behavior of ALL American children based on how those exhausted children being dragged around museums behave is pretty bogus.

My great aunt used to say that there were 2 kids of children: good children, and tired children.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I have to wonder how tired an American child on vacation dealing with jet lag would be at a Museum in Europe. I think judging the behavior of ALL American children based on how those exhausted children being dragged around museums behave is pretty bogus.

I was thinking about that aspect of it, too. I've known a few people who cope pretty well with jet lag, and dd1 travelled beautifully, even at a very early age. But, ds2 is more like me in that respect. I don't travel well. If I took a week long vacation to Europe, I doubt I'd even be feeling like a human being by the time I left, and I'd be cranky as hell. DS2 is the same way. Jet lag or travel fatigue or whatever people call it hits some people like a ton of bricks and it's a lot for a small child to deal with. I've never done a flight to Europe, but I'm pretty sure it would knock me on my ass.

My great aunt used to say that there were 2 kids of children: good children, and tired children.

Slightly over-simplified, but fairly accurate, ime.

[Wolfcat]

Actually, I agree with the anecdote at the end of that article.

Sometimes when I say "no", I have the background of having considered the pros and cons of the action and made a decision that it is not acceptable. DS rarely argues about those "no"s, and DD just obeys. When I don't have that conviction, or when DH says "no" (he doesn't believe the kids see him as an authority figure), they blow right through it.

Knowing that something is a firm boundary and letting that knowing come through, that is something we can all learn from.

[Qestia]

I just hated the article because it's not based on actual data, it's based on the three French moms (okay I may be exagerating) the author knows. The plural of anecdote is not data. To base a book or a parenting theory on what a friend of yours tells you is absurd. Oh--her french friend visited a family in California and was horrified that the CA children got their own snacks? So we should be more like the French? What? As someone patiently teaching her 6 and 3 year olds how to get their own snacks... ridiculous.

[mambera]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

On one hand, there were some tidbits that were good, but they are better stated in this very old and very AP friendly article:

http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

I am constantly seeing that article linked on here and I have to say I think it is total bunk. 

I think Liedloff has misattributed to parental approach what is really an effect of the society at large.  I don't beg, plead, hit, or ignore my 2 y/o.  I do have pretty clear expectations (the water stays in the tub), and I do have straightforward and consistently enforced consequences (water on the floor? bath is over now).  Nonetheless she is out of control and there is always water on the floor, because she is two and because that is her personality.

Basically children mostly imitate their peers no matter what their parents do.  My insane 2 y/o who refuses ever to wear her coat when I tell her, does it cheerfully at preschool because the other children do.

I bet the same can be said of the Yequana children, and doubtless of the French too.  It's impossible to buck the village.  I bet if children are regularly taken out to nice restaurants where they see other children present and behaving well, and where those other children as well as all the adults present make it clear that that is the social norm, they will learn to do the same almost regardless of what their own parents do.

[erigeron]

Originally Posted by Qestia 

I just hated the article because it's not based on actual data, it's based on the three French moms (okay I may be exagerating) the author knows. The plural of anecdote is not data. To base a book or a parenting theory on what a friend of yours tells you is absurd. Oh--her french friend visited a family in California and was horrified that the CA children got their own snacks? So we should be more like the French? What? As someone patiently teaching her 6 and 3 year olds how to get their own snacks... ridiculous.

To be fair, it is excerpted from a book. The article makes it sound like it's just based on a few people, but in the book she explicates more of her research regarding influential thinkers who impacted French parenting, French institutions that influence the ways children are raised, etc.

[gcgirl]

Hang on. So French kids are well-behaved and never act up in public? Then explain this commercial to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTIMfDJDS6Q&feature=related

Obviously it happens with enough regularity that there is a popular cultural frame of reference for it. Otherwise, the premise of this commercial would be COMPLETELY NONSENSICAL to the French and thus would never have been produced.

Just sayin'.

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by gcgirl 

Hang on. So French kids are well-behaved and never act up in public? Then explain this commercial to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTIMfDJDS6Q&feature=related

Obviously it happens with enough regularity that there is a popular cultural frame of reference for it. Otherwise, the premise of this commercial would be COMPLETELY NONSENSICAL to the French and thus would never have been produced.

Just sayin'.

Thanks for posting that!  I thought about it when this thread came up but couldn't remember for sure if it was from France or some other European country.  Love it!