Need help dealing with special needs neighbor - Page 3

[SpottedFoxx]

I'm not diminishing anything.   I was tortured as a child - name calling, physical abuse.  All of it.  However, the best thing my parents did for me was give me the tools I needed to deal with these people.  The child needs to learn how to handle himself when his parents aren't there to protect him.  Okay - the rhyme is definitely outdated but she can make up her own one.  It doesn't mean you won't be hurt by the name calling.  It doesn't mean it's acceptable.  However by giving him the tools he needs to handle it himself - you are doing him a service.  No, the child should NOT be allowed to call names incessantly - however her son needs to know that to protect himself, he may have to bend or even break a rule (getting up on the bus).

Extreme example - I heard a story on PBS given by a retired homicide detective who counsels parents on how to protect their children....

You spend an arm and leg on a book bag and books.  You tell your kids - those books and that bag are part of you - you are not to leave them at school, you are not to leave them at Jenny's house or at the playground or on the bus.  You will NOT LOSE THOSE BOOKS!  Imagine the pain the father felt when he was sitting with his daughter, after she had been beaten and raped, in the emergency room and she tells him, "I could have gotten away from that bad man but my books were too heavy".   Tell your kids to drop everything and run.  Tell them if they are being pulled into a car, slip out of their jacket or shirt (even girls) and run in the opposite direction screaming fire. 

Tell your son to do what he needs to do to keep himself safe from bullies.  If that means getting up on a moving bus and walking up to the aid or driver, then do it - you'll support him through the consequences.  

My sister was an overweight child.  On her first day of a new school, a kid called her fat.  She came home crying.  The next day, the girl called her fat again but this time she was ready.... "I may be fat but your ugly and I can diet".  They are still best friends today.
 

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

No. Particularly to the bolded - just no.  Children need to be protected from bullying - not taught how to handle it.  

Special needs or not, if the child who is doing the tormenting cannot stop, he should be kept away from her son.

I do think kids need to learn how to say no, stick up for themselves, etc…but they need protecting while they learn these skills, and it may take years to acquire the skills.  Quite frankly, if an adult calls me names or is inappropriate with me (rarely happens) I will stand my ground but I will also make sure I do not spend much time around that person.  

Oh and names hurt me far more in my childhood than any stick or stone.   I don't think we should diminish the pain names cause. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by SpottedFoxx 

I'm not diminishing anything.

I'm not either. At all.

But teaching our children how to stand up for themselves is PART of the answer -- for our sn and our nt kids.

[RiverTam]

My son has either Mixed Expressive Receptive Language Disorder or HFA.  He engaged in name calling and other inappropriate language behaviors at home. (Not so much at school.)  If he heard something that he thought was funny, he'd repeat it over and over and over and over. Sometimes this meant saying things like "Duh!" and "Dillweed!" and "Ploopy!" and "SHUT UP!" over and over again.  He was trying to be funny, not mean. 

We had to teach him explicitly that his words were hurtful to other kids. He didn't get that. We also had to teach him other ways to tell jokes.   He really wanted to tell jokes so we practiced jokes and puns and silliness. We read a bunch of joke books together.  He loves doing this so much that he told a bunch of Christmas jokes for his class talent show in December. 

Explicit social skills teaching by adults would probably help with this kid:

Step 1: Explain the situation.

"What you are saying hurts X.'s feelings. It makes him feel bad. Are you trying to make him feel bad or are you trying to be funny?" 

Step 2: "If you want to be funny, you can do that without hurting X's feelings. When I want to be funny, I tell jokes. Here's a knock knock joke, you can tell..."

[SpottedFoxx]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I'm not either. At all.

But teaching our children how to stand up for themselves is PART of the answer -- for our sn and our nt kids.

Absolutely!  But it's a big part that a lot of parents seem to leave out of the equation. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by SpottedFoxx 

Absolutely!  But it's a big part that a lot of parents seem to leave out of the equation. 

Sure.

it does not replace adults:

-setting the parameters for behaviour

-monitorring the situation

-taking moves to create a safe environment (usually through separating the parties) if the aggressor can not or will not stop.

[SpottedFoxx]

Absolutely!  However, you need to recognize that not all adults will recognize or acknowledge a problem and monitor the situation so empowering your child is critical.  I'm not saying you can do one without the other but it seems like a lot of parents skip this step.  

[Butterflykate]

hmmm well....

First I have to laugh at the 5 year booster shots causing her sons autism.. But I won't open that can of worms here its just asking for trouble,

I just wanted to add that if the boy bullying does have autism it could more than likely be a learned behaviour, as in the child has been bullied and doesn't understand that it is wrong. I know when my 20+ year old was younger and became abusive with words it was because someone was saying them to my child first, we had to work very hard to remedy the situation and explain why the words were hurtful. It was not as simple as just telling them don't say that its bad. 

[momof3tobe]

Originally Posted by Butterflykate 

hmmm well....

First I have to laugh at the 5 year booster shots causing her sons autism.. But I won't open that can of worms here its just asking for trouble,

I just wanted to add that if the boy bullying does have autism it could more than likely be a learned behaviour, as in the child has been bullied and doesn't understand that it is wrong. I know when my 20+ year old was younger and became abusive with words it was because someone was saying them to my child first, we had to work very hard to remedy the situation and explain why the words were hurtful. It was not as simple as just telling them don't say that its bad. 

That's a very interesting point- it could be some learned behavior. It sounds like you dealt with this some years ago but do you happen to remember the things that you said to your son that helped him understand?

[simplygreen]

Well I have a 5yr old with high functioning Autism. We are still in the middle of behavior training and its been quiet a road. My son can definately be the aggressive player. He so enjoys chasing kids and pushing them down, Splashing them,  roaring at them, engaging in what most would consider bully type behavior. My son is a sweet boy, he just can not handle social situatuions at all. I feel for the mom, the blind eye may be that she just has no ideas of what at all to do with her son. I typically have to work through every social interaction my son has its exhausting!!!

I'm not excusing the bullyin behavior or the lack of the mother involment but Has anyone tried to not responed to the bullying and actually engaing the child. So basiclly he calls someone a name (ignore the behavior, I know seems like not ana appropriate response but he may be wanting the attention and power struggle) and saying hey you want to go roll a ball back and forth. or hey can you help use find the pink sparkly rock that is lost in the sand box. I mean this kids wants friendly interaction, but  I know with my son he needs focus, he needs to know what he is suppose to do with these kids, he has no idea how to join in and when he is uncomfortable he gets aggressive.

I hear you all on the bullying and teaching our kids to stand up for themselves. But we should also teach our children that someone kids have issues outside of what they can see, Not that its right for Tommy to call you names, but  maybe wonder why tommy struggles being around other children.  Teach your children that not every child is out to hurt them, but some children really do struggle..  

[purslaine]

Do you know if the school has social classes of any sort?

When my oldest was in grade 6, he had a friend who had high functioning Aspergers.  he had a social class where volunteer children would play board games and the like with him.  It was highly supervised - and the goal (even of the volunteers) was to help the child learn turn taking, appropriate talk, not monopolising the conversation…..  

I hear what you are saying, simplygreen, and I do not doubt the child does not really know any better, and that the mother is overwhelmed.  It does not change the fact that the child in question should not play with the OP's child without direct supervision (which may be hard for the Op to manage - the friendship might peter out)

[Linda on the move]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Sure.

it does not replace adults:

No, it doesn't. But it is the place to start.

If you think about it, the OPer started out wanting to know what she could do/say to change the other child. She later indicated that her son has zero skills for speaking up for himself. The place for her to start is teaching her son this important social skill.

The notion that we can change the world enough or fix everything enough that we can skip teaching our children to find their own strength is very popular in the US right now, but I believe it is misguided.  Speaking up for one's self is an important skill, one that I have worked on with both my ASD child and my NT child.

I find the responses to this quite bizarre. I thought other parents would chime in about how they've worked on this with their kids -- what has worked and what hasn't. Instead, it's like there's a debate about whether or not we should bother to teach our children to speak up for themselves.

[Butterflykate]

Originally Posted by momof3tobe 

That's a very interesting point- it could be some learned behavior. It sounds like you dealt with this some years ago but do you happen to remember the things that you said to your son that helped him understand?

We had outside help and intervention but we used flash cards and social engaging. Often the cause was not being invited to join in the group and not knowing how to join in the group. We used training exercises (If I remember it was long ago) using soft toys and putting flash cards on them to show they were sad when told hurtful words, happy and what makes people feel what, and what it means to be happy or sad. And how to get people to play... 

So many hours and what a nightmarish time it was.

[AbbyGrant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I find the responses to this quite bizarre. I thought other parents would chime in about how they've worked on this with their kids -- what has worked and what hasn't. Instead, it's like there's a debate about whether or not we should bother to teach our children to speak up for themselves.

No one ever said we shouldn't teach our children how to speak up for themselves.  The "debate" was about whether or not adults should be involved because it appeared to be suggested that they not.  

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

The notion that we can change the world enough or fix everything enough that we can skip teaching our children to find their own strength is very popular in the US right now, but I believe it is misguided.  Speaking up for one's self is an important skill, one that I have worked on with both my ASD child and my NT child.

Some of us grew up in a time when "boys will boys",  "sticks and stones....."  with parents and teachers who rarely became involved in altercations - even when it was clearly bullying and clearly damaging.   We have the emotional scars to prove it.

Do I think kids should be taught to stand up for themselves?  Absolutely.  Do I think this abdicates adults from the responsibility to monitor the situation, set parameter, etc?   Not at all.  Balance is what is needed - but I dare say if anyone should not be left to fend for themselves in this situation it is a ASD 9 year old and a 6 year old boy. 

[momof3tobe]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Some of us grew up in a time when "boys will boys",  "sticks and stones....."  with parents and teachers who rarely became involved in altercations - even when it was clearly bullying and clearly damaging.   We have the emotional scars to prove it.

Do I think kids should be taught to stand up for themselves?  Absolutely.  Do I think this abdicates adults from the responsibility to monitor the situation, set parameter, etc?   Not at all.  Balance is what is needed - but I dare say if anyone should not be left to fend for themselves in this situation it is a ASD 9 year old and a 6 year old boy. 

Before we met this boy my son was never in this type of situation- just little stuff like a kid cutting in line at the playground slide and stuff like that. And I worked with him on how to tell the kid that he was next and so on- but this was/is way beyond that. I myself wasn't sure what the best way was to handle it so my approach is to reach out to as many people as I can that may have some sort of insight- like the boy's mother, the guidance counselor, you ladies here... more so that I can find ways for myself to improve the situation, not so that I can change anyone else. I have worked with my son on using his "serious voice" when someone is bothering him and we talked about situations that would require getting an adult. It's a work in progress. I feel like we're at that critical age where things could go either way for both my son and this boy and I don't want to screw up.

[Butterflykate]

Hey mumof3tobe, 

I saw this a few days ago and I knew there was a reason I couldn't shake it from my head. I was wondering if partly why this boy bullies is because he isn't sure how to join in the games because playing with others doesn't come easily to him, there's no instructions? 

Would something like this help with him being able to join in? http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1346015/a-bit-off-the-parenting-topic-but-this-idea-is-so-awesome-im-stealing-it

[SpottedFoxx]

Originally Posted by momof3tobe 


Before we met this boy my son was never in this type of situation- just little stuff like a kid cutting in line at the playground slide and stuff like that. And I worked with him on how to tell the kid that he was next and so on- but this was/is way beyond that. I myself wasn't sure what the best way was to handle it so my approach is to reach out to as many people as I can that may have some sort of insight- like the boy's mother, the guidance counselor, you ladies here... more so that I can find ways for myself to improve the situation, not so that I can change anyone else. I have worked with my son on using his "serious voice" when someone is bothering him and we talked about situations that would require getting an adult. It's a work in progress. I feel like we're at that critical age where things could go either way for both my son and this boy and I don't want to screw up.

I just wanted to say that I think you are an awesome Mom for so consciously parenting your son.  

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by simplygreen 

I hear you all on the bullying and teaching our kids to stand up for themselves. But we should also teach our children that someone kids have issues outside of what they can see, Not that its right for Tommy to call you names, but  maybe wonder why tommy struggles being around other children.  Teach your children that not every child is out to hurt them, but some children really do struggle..  

My autistic son was also very aggressive when younger so I can relate to everything simplygreen has said. 

My thought when reading about all of Jack's issues were "WHERE ARE THE ADULTS?????"

This is my biggest pet peeve about this whole "bullying" issue that is so popular in the media these days. Kids are not naturally bullies, but they DO require adults to teach them social skills and conflict resolution. Traditionally children were surrounded by adults and/or older children who could teach them these skills, resolve issues before they degenerate to the nastier sides of bullying. Personally I believe that what we are all calling "bullying" these days is a symptom of the lack of adults involved in kids' daily experiences - and school is the biggest cause of this because adult:child ratios are unnaturally small there. There is no way teachers can monitor every social interaction in a big group of kids. Why didn't anybody step in and intervene when Jack was on the receiving end of these actions? 

Anyways, the OP described some of "Noah's" behaviours and he reminded me a lot of my son at that age, although I certainly would not just stand by and do nothing (maybe the mother was just mortified and too embarrassed to say anything  - I've been there for sure), but I think this whole "anti-bullying" stuff (as I write this it is pink shirt day in schools here) makes it really easy to label kids like Noah, like my son, like simplygreen's son, as "bullies". Which then makes them the "bad guys" rather than seeking to understand these kids.

So, my two points are: 1) seek to understand that behaviour as that shown by Noah can be that particular child's challenge and should be thought of that way rather than someone who is committing a crime (not saying the OP did this, btw). And 2) the issue of kids either learning "sticks and stones" (a philosophy I heartily disagree with, btw) or being "taught to stand up for themselves" is, I believe, moot and a red herring that detracts from the true cause of bullying which is lack of adult guidance and involvement (due to not enough adults around per child to be able to monitor all social interactions and situations). 

Personally, if I were the OP I would be present with my child during all play interactions in the 'hood AND i would be considering other schooling arrangements since obviously his current situation is not good enough; i simply would not put up with my child being in a situation where those sorts of experiences can go unnoticed

okay, I'm a bit rant-y today. PMS. forgive me if I'm being a bit bitchy. ;-)