Researching the Chicken Pox (Varicella) vaccination - Page 2

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by stik 

I had no idea my question would be offensive.  I was trying to get a better sense of the scope of the problem.  I was curious.  Now I'm more curious.  Have there been any deaths from vaccine reactions in the US in the past year?  What about the past decade?  

What do you think would make safer vaccines and better studies?  

I am also a concerned parent who wants better medical care for all.  What does "better" mean to you?

i know of at least one, right here ---read all about it..its one story where the dr actually admitted it was the vaccines that killed the baby....but,  since most drs are so adamant about denying vaccine death, its hard to come up with a reasonable number, because even if the death is beleived to have been caused by a vaccine, it is usually swept under the rug, and the death is listed as something else, most notably, a pre-existing condition. 

[shiningpearl]

Originally Posted by stik 

I had no idea my question would be offensive.  I was trying to get a better sense of the scope of the problem.  I was curious.  Now I'm more curious.  Have there been any deaths from vaccine reactions in the US in the past year?  What about the past decade?  

What do you think would make safer vaccines and better studies?  

I am also a concerned parent who wants better medical care for all.  What does "better" mean to you?

Well, I'm not going to go searching the Internet for you.  but her are some that I'm sure you'll ignore http://sanevax.org/victims-2/, there's a nice chart showing claimed and compensated http://thenatureofreality.com/HRSA%20-%20National%20Vaccine%20Injury%20Compensation%20Program.pdf, but if there are deaths and those deaths are proven and compensated in the vaccine injury court, guess what!!! those files are sealed, so we will never know the answer to that.  

In my opinion safer vaccines are not possible considering how they need to be made in order to cause a immune reaction.  Without an adjuvant, the body will not react and will not create an antibodies.  Adjuvants (all kinds, create the possiblity for allergies and auto-immune), but they are not required for the booster vaccines, but they will not make more then one kind and not to mention all the other ingredients, if  I wouldn't let my child eat it, they aren't getting injected in their bodies.

 Studies, would include all information, and a safety study would include a true placebo i.e. saline.  The placebo would not have ANY of the vaccine ingredients.  Or a study of vaccinate children vs unvaccinated, done by the medical profession which would include blood work, medical history, allergy test, medications taken (oH, and not the children who are too sick to be vaccinated because that is exactly who the pharma companies would choose).  

[BeckyBird]

Stik, I don't believe you are genuinely curious; your questions are passive aggressive and everyone knows it (from the last go-around, where you were also unsuccessful I might add.)

How do you come to this conclusion? Why do you feel this way? How many fingers am I holding up?

So, you claim to want better health care for all. I don't see it, but maybe I'm too busy rolling my eyes at your posts to actually read them!  I don't see where you even admit there is a problem, and that is the first step toward improvement. First, you have to realize there is a problem. Do not expect me to answer your next "what problem" question.

What does "better" mean to me?   Another one of your....insincere questions.  You have become quite the character,  with your pretend questions, your little homework assignments given to those who disagree with you. And when we don't answer you, do you think that means we've "lost" the debate? Instead of engaging in an actual discussion, you play these silly games.

You honestly do not see the double standard? When people die after receiving a vaccine, and the vaccine is not investigated? (Recent history--*alleged* Gardasil deaths come to mind. Note I said "alleged", because it's never the vaccine's fault of course!!) You are a smart cookie--I think you know how to search for vaccine deaths. Oh, and since the CDC lacks credibility (don't even ask why I feel this way, you already know why) how can you trust their official numbers? Isn't it common knowledge that reactions are under reported?

Backing it up a bit...... you trust Paul Offit. I do not. I will not answer you when you ask me why. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Back to chicken pox mortality rates, and someone of the other threads Vaccination Questions to Ask Your Doctor posted this link to information on deaths related to chicken pox (they describe in their what that means, including accounting for possible other causes just happening to coincide with when the person had chicken pox). 

Study of Varicella Death Rates from the American Acadamy of Pediatrics

My summary of the stats on childhood deaths in the other thread: 

In babies (<1) it's gone from 8 deaths a year in the 1990s (pre vaccine), to zero deaths a year in 2004-2007. In fact in all children under 19 (see Table 1 in the link provided) there are now (2004-2007) basically no deaths due to chicken pox, down from 50/year in the 1990s pre vaccine. 

Thanks for the info.

I think the next step in figuring out whether or not to vaccinate against CP would be gathering data on how many serious reactions there are against the vaccine.  Trying to do that might be as hard as trying to pin down jello - but do it you must if you want to compare risks and benefits.

The next thing to research is how shingles plays into this whole thing.  Many people believe shingles cases have risen due to lower amounts of CP floating around.  This may not influence whether or not your kid should get the CP vaccine - as it is the heavy CP use en masse that is the issue wrt to shingles - not individual cases.  It bugs me, though.  I think it is a misuse of vaccines - chickenpox may be on the decline (a fairly benign childhood disease) but shingles - which everyone agrees is often long lasting and painful -  is on the rise.  

[stik]

ShiningPearl, I do indeed ignore sites that argue that science doesn't work.  I was hoping for a stat from VAERS or the CDC.  I could look that up myself, you know, some time, when I'm on a machine with a fully functioning keyboard.  Which is, alas, not right now.

BeckyBird, I'm regret that you think I'm not genuine.  This is the "Researching the Vaccine Decision" forum, and I think that questions about the nature of evidence are important here.  If you're looking for rigid adherence to an anti-vax stance, there's a whole other forum for that.  I don't go in there unless there's Rhogam - it's not the place for questions, and I find it boring.  But this is a place for questions.   My questions do tend to have a relationship to my purpose here, which is encouraging most people to vaccinate, since I think it's good for their children's health in most cases (please note major exceptions for egg allergies and individual or close family histories of reactions, plus serious ambiguity about the best approach for children with febrile seizures.)  I think the health care system would be better if fewer people got sick.  I think vaccination campaigns have done a great job of working towards that goal in the past 50 years.  I am genuinely interested in hearing what your vision of a better health care system would be.

Sorry to hear you're feeling hostile.  

[stik]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Thanks for the info.

I think the next step in figuring out whether or not to vaccinate against CP would be gathering data on how many serious reactions there are against the vaccine.  Trying to do that might be as hard as trying to pin down jello - but do it you must if you want to compare risks and benefits.

The next thing to research is how shingles plays into this whole thing.  Many people believe shingles cases have risen due to lower amounts of CP floating around.  This may not influence whether or not your kid should get the CP vaccine - as it is the heavy CP use en masse that is the issue wrt to shingles - not individual cases.  It bugs me, though.  I think it is a misuse of vaccines - chickenpox may be on the decline (a fairly benign childhood disease) but shingles - which everyone agrees is often long lasting and painful -  is on the rise.  

I have heard of cases of shingles in teenagers in the past few years, and I didn't hear about any back when I was a kid.  I don't know if that's because there were fewer cases, or because my hearing was bad.  People didn't use to talk about their illnesses at all, let alone chat obsessively about them online like they sometimes do now.  This can lead to a sense of dramatic increase that is really just an increase in reporting.  I am not finding CDC stats on numbers of shingles cases or even non-geriatric cases.  I'd like a big old chart that shows cases per age group per year over the past 40 years or so.  That seems to be the first obstacle to this research - no one appears to have put that together and put it online.  I think there is not enough info to conclusively state that shingles is on the rise.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by stik 

ShiningPearl, I do indeed ignore sites that argue that science doesn't work.  I was hoping for a stat from VAERS or the CDC.  I could look that up myself, you know, some time, when I'm on a machine with a fully functioning keyboard.  Which is, alas, not right now.

BeckyBird, I'm regret that you think I'm not genuine.  This is the "Researching the Vaccine Decision" forum, and I think that questions about the nature of evidence are important here.  If you're looking for rigid adherence to an anti-vax stance, there's a whole other forum for that.  I don't go in there unless there's Rhogam - it's not the place for questions, and I find it boring.  But this is a place for questions.   My questions do tend to have a relationship to my purpose here, which is encouraging most people to vaccinate, since I think it's good for their children's health in most cases (please note major exceptions for egg allergies and individual or close family histories of reactions, plus serious ambiguity about the best approach for children with febrile seizures.)  I think the health care system would be better if fewer people got sick.  I think vaccination campaigns have done a great job of working towards that goal in the past 50 years.  I am genuinely interested in hearing what your vision of a better health care system would be.

Sorry to hear you're feeling hostile.  

I couldn't disagree with this comment/opinion more.

Vaccines did not save us - 2 centuries of official statistics

But you will likely ignore this information, because it doesn't fit with your perceived reality, which of course you are entitled to have. 

[purslaine]

Stik…..a few mainstream articles for you on the shingles/ CP vaccine connection.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/08/16/generation-at-risk/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/health/03vaccine.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/01/12896.aspx   (I have never heard of this site - but at a cursory glance it looks mainstream).

[purslaine]

last thing  (then my research is done for the day):

Anyone considering getting the CP vaccine should consider doing it separately from MMR - it is safer that way.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/hcp-vacc-safety-monitor.htm

[varl]

Regarding the child who supposedly died of chicken pox.  Chicken pox deaths are extremely rare, but I can understand how a grief-stricken parent might want to blame something that is out of their control.  But as previous posters have said, correlation does not mean causation.  Perhaps the child was given too much acetaminophen.   Was an autopsy done?

(Disclosure: no autism in my family but I've read the studies and question the US vaccine schedule.  My kids are all vaccinated against chicken pox.  Two have had breakthrough cases, or so the doctor determined based on a few red spots and a fever.  Another was dx'd with shingles as a young adult.)

[purslaine]

Stik…..a few mainstream articles for you on the shingles/ CP vaccine connection.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/08/16/generation-at-risk/

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/03/health/03vaccine.html

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/09/01/12896.aspx   (I have never heard of this site - but at a cursory glance it looks mainstream).

This one is quite interesting - it states the cases of shingles has doubled (CDC findings) and muses on why:

http://www.webmd.com/vaccines/features/shingles-chickenpox?page=2

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by varl 

(Disclosure: no autism in my family but I've read the studies and question the US vaccine schedule.  My kids are all vaccinated against chicken pox.  Two have had breakthrough cases, or so the doctor determined based on a few red spots and a fever.  Another was dx'd with shingles as a young adult.)

And how do you feel about that since your kids were vaxed and got them anyway? Has it made you think any further on the subject of vaccinating for chicken pox?  Do you think your childrens' immunity to CP is compromised from vaccinating and they got it anyway?  Was the child who was dx'd with shingles vaccinated for CP/or got CP naturally?
 

[slmommy]

eh. DD just got over roseola about a week ago. If I were woh I would've had to take a few days off and maybe lost income/employment... isn't that the standard reason for CP vax??? $$$$$?

I guess maybe sometime there has been fatality from roseola with seizures or aspirin and reyes?? Where's the vax for this one?

I'm sure after someone makes the vax they will invest to appropriately market it (scare campaign it) too. Or if that fails, heck we can just point to the $$$ parents will lose the economy by days off of work, again.

Hi stik... got into rhogam on birth boards and decided to stop over here after?  

[stik]

I hadn't been by in a while.  I wanted to see what was up.  And yeah, there was Rhogam.  I won't be here long.  I have another article to write.  

[prosciencemum]

As I mentioned in another thread I love statistics. So I downloaded the 2011 VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System). The important thing to remember with this is that any event can be reported which may possibly be linked to a recent vaccine. So not all of there may actually be related to the vaccine (as in a death during chicken pox - it could be a coincidence).

The CDC has an explanation of this and the importance of monitoring vaccine safety here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccine_Monitoring/Index.html 

Anyway the 2011 data includes 255,68 reports of reactions, which include 173 deaths (for all vaccines, not just varicella). Very sad for each and everyone of those families. But we need to know how many total vaccines were given in 2011 to put this in perspective. This I'm not as sure how to get, but I can estimate. If we just take babies (FYI 73 of the deaths were of older people, and 29 had no age reported), then in 2010 4 million babies were born in the USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States), so assume it's similar in 2011, and assuming a 5% rate of vaccination refusal (which I think might be a bit high - I'm not sure) and the normal schedule (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf )- which at a quick count has 23 shots in the first year - that's around 100 million vaccinations for children under 1 in the USA each year. And 100 deaths (including those with no age reported to give an upper estimate). So that looks like in 1 in a million vaccines given to babies the child dies soon after getting the shot (either as a direct result of the vaccine, or due to some other complicating cause). Ie. for each vaccine your child gets there is a 1 in a million chance of a serious complication leading to death (or a random death) shortly after. 

We could compare this to car crash fatalities. This data: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx says that in 2009 110 people died per million of the population in car crashes. So that's a 110 in a million chance of any given person in the US dying in a given year in a car crash. That's 100 times more likely than a death resulting from a childhood vaccination. 

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

As I mentioned in another thread I love statistics. So I downloaded the 2011 VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System). The important thing to remember with this is that any event can be reported which may possibly be linked to a recent vaccine. So not all of there may actually be related to the vaccine (as in a death during chicken pox - it could be a coincidence).

The CDC has an explanation of this and the importance of monitoring vaccine safety here: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccine_Monitoring/Index.html 

Anyway the 2011 data includes 255,68 reports of reactions, which include 173 deaths (for all vaccines, not just varicella). Very sad for each and everyone of those families. But we need to know how many total vaccines were given in 2011 to put this in perspective. This I'm not as sure how to get, but I can estimate. If we just take babies (FYI 73 of the deaths were of older people, and 29 had no age reported), then in 2010 4 million babies were born in the USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States), so assume it's similar in 2011, and assuming a 5% rate of vaccination refusal (which I think might be a bit high - I'm not sure) and the normal schedule (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf )- which at a quick count has 23 shots in the first year - that's around 100 million vaccinations for children under 1 in the USA each year. And 100 deaths (including those with no age reported to give an upper estimate). So that looks like in 1 in a million vaccines given to babies the child dies soon after getting the shot (either as a direct result of the vaccine, or due to some other complicating cause). Ie. for each vaccine your child gets there is a 1 in a million chance of a serious complication leading to death (or a random death) shortly after. 

We could compare this to car crash fatalities. This data: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx says that in 2009 110 people died per million of the population in car crashes. So that's a 110 in a million chance of any given person in the US dying in a given year in a car crash. That's 100 times more likely than a death resulting from a childhood vaccination. 

But even car crashes can cause disability for life, just as an adverse reaction to a vaccine can do.....bad comparison.  I have both a husband disabled for life from a car crash, and  a son who will suffer with his vax injuries for the rest of his life too...You could also compare vax rates to children murdered by family members, children falling out windows and dying, or anything else you deem worthy to compare to vaccinating.  Accidents can maim and kill, just like vaccines have the potential to do and have just as much or more of a chance, imo,  because vaccine injuries are hushed up...car crash injuries are not.  

[slmommy]

I like stats too. When they exist and can be reasonably trusted. Although, sometimes I still make decisions against the stats for other reasons.

But what do we do when the only stats that exist are industry created? Blind trust?

It's funny how any other medical procedure, the potential side effects are much more well accepted and sometimes actually presented to the patient. Vax? we have no clue... and doesn't look like that is going to chance anytime soon.

[stik]

VAERS is not industry created.

[slmommy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stik 

VAERS is not industry created.

Nope, but also can't be treated as "trustable" stats, as anyone can report anything, right? 

In this great argument, any stat, viewpoint, anecdote, "science" or "evidence" from anyone other than Paul Offit/cdc/pharma company is dismissed as biased, ridiculous, not scientific, or from a dr/phd/hcp/researcher either not qualified or crazy. 

It's kinda a pointless argument, both sides dislike and will not trust the "evidence" or "stats" of the other, WHEN stats, numbers, or studies even exist...

[stik]

All stats have limitations. While I don't fully trust VAERS, prosciencemum provided an excellent demonstration of how to use numbers that may be exaggerated to form a good estimate of the upper ranges of frequency of an issue.