Where did the idea come from that little kids are better off NOT at home with their moms? - Page 7

[Imakcerka]

 I work a panama schedule, on a few days off a few days.  I work nights.  So I can go to school functions be there for breakfast lunch and dinner.  And I really only work 15 days a month and have the other 15 off.  It works out really well.  They are 12 hour shifts though.  So on the school nights my girls don't have me from 6 to 8 a few nights a week.  They're usually in bed asleep by 8.  I sleep from 8 to 2:30 unless there is a school function I want to go to like a field trip, but those are few and far between and usually they work out to be on my days off.  It helps that I fall asleep the moment my head hits the pillow.  My husband takes care of the night time stuff, left over homework and gets their clothes ready for the next day. 
 

Originally Posted by Pookietooth 

How is it possible to work 42 hours a week and still have almost full home duties? Do you not sleep or something? I'm not asking to be snarky I'd really like to know.

[mamaofthree]

wow i don't think half the people who posted here actually read what the OP wrote. i don't think it was a judgement on people who work OR who stay at home, but on the IDEA that all kids needed to go to school/daycare at a young age because their parents were not fit to educate them after a certain age. that they had been lead to believe that they were not good enough for their own children. which to me is sad.

i don't think a debate was even needed. it wasn't about someone being bad for wanting to send their child or having to, but the idea that you HAD TO.

i have wondered myself why people felt like they were not smart enough to be with their kids. as a homeschooling mother i do hear this often. "i would homeschool but i am not smart enough". like somehow you become dumb at a certain point. like you can not teach your child stuff even your wee small children. it isn't about whether you want to or not, or whether you should or not... it is the idea that you are not capable. that i think is what the OP was driving at.

[purplerose]

Single moms and lots of married moms do it all the time! You can squeeze everything in that needs to be done. I didn't get alot of sleep when I was a single mother, but then again, I don't get alot of sleep now married and with a 6 month old LOL

 

Originally Posted by Pookietooth 

How is it possible to work 42 hours a week and still have almost full home duties? Do you not sleep or something? I'm not asking to be snarky I'd really like to know.

[Pookietooth]

As far as talking during lunch, a friend's ds who is at an "award-winning" public elementary, they are punished for talking too loudly at lunch by having to have a silent lunch. Part of it is because it's in the "multipurpose room" which is a gym, auditorium, and cafeteria (and they even hold gym classes at the same time), and voices really reverberate. The other part is because the kids don't have much time to eat and must shove the food in fast (he says that he gets maybe 20 minutes after he gets his food, sometimes less, and that doesn't include cleanup). 

[youngspiritmom]

Idea-wise, I do think that being with your Mom or parent is one of the best places a kid can be, generally. Your mom knows you and your needs and moods better than anyone else, and will work harder for you and your needs more than anyone else. She birthed you.

Not all moms can stay at home all the time though. Some have to work so their kids and can eat/be clothed/sheltered, some become grumpy/crabby/mean/bad parents if they are with their kids all the time, and some simply feel that they need some time to pursue their career etc. All of them are making the choice to fulfill their kids' needs -- they know that their needs have to be fulfilled first in order for this to happen.

Personally, my 3.5 yr old is starting preschool 4 days a week for 3 hours a day (12 hours a week). I wish it was only 3 days. He loves going to school, being with friends, learning in different ways in a different environment, and the teacher is fabulous. It gives me a break to recharge and really be ready to give him the best of myself. In the fall, it will give me time to be with our newborn (#2) and give him a productive place to be rather than around a crying/nursing baby and a tired/messy mom. I love being at home with him too, and I'm happy the preschool isn't more than 12 hours/week.

I don't think he needs to learn letters, math, these things early. But to be quite honest the resources/education that his teacher has really engage him better than some of my attempts at home. I don't think I *cant* teach him. But I do feel like I need more tools to teach him best. And I see that his teacher with 20+ years of experience is awesome with preschool kiddos, and they love her.

I think the idea that kids are not better off at home with their moms all comes from what that home environment is like. I do think education outside of the home can, for some moms, provide enrichment and learning that the kids wouldn't get in the home.

Edited by youngspiritmom - 4/29/12 at 9:56pm

[alicewyf]

I put my DD in pre-K when she turned two. For 10 hours a week, which I think is really minimal.

It was half for me and half for her. Momma needs a break! I'm a better mom when I do get a break. I don't think EVERYONE needs a break from their kids, but I do. Those 10 hours a week help me decompress and get housework done. Probably at least 80% of my day, even when DD is home, is spent cleaning/cooking/errand running/gardening. It isn't as if she is getting 100% of my attention when she's home with me. She is learning a lot by observing and helping, true, but it isn't as if I spend my whole day reading to her and doing crafts. I can't do that and run my household. I have one of the best-run households of anyone I know in my age group, whether they have kids or not. I'm proud of that.

I also think it's good for kids to learn to be around a variety of other kids and adults. I pretty much handpick her playdates, but I won't always be able to handpick the people she interacts with. She has learned a lot about how to act around difficult children in pre-K. I think that's a valuable life skill. She was also VERY motivated to potty train when all the other little girls in her class were wearing panties. I'd have put her in pre-K just for that reason alone. If that makes me a bad mom, so be it! I'm just glad she trained so easily before age 3.

I don't think she learns much of anything academic at her pre-K. They do work on letters, numbers, and colors, but she doesn't really respond to her teacher's teaching style. This doesn't bother me at all. I am starting her on a homeschool Pre-K curriculum in the fall for this reason, as she learns better from me(I can take 2 years to complete it so it will be very very casual). She is also going up to 15 hrs/week pre-K in the fall.

Obviously I don't put her in Pre-K because I'm lazy (I've never paid a babysitter a day in her life). I also don't do it because I don't feel qualified to teach my child (I feel more qualified than her pre-K teachers, honestly). I have some valid reasons that are good enough for my family. And I feel like I'm a BETTER mom for having made the decision to put her in a minimal pre-K program outside the home.

[RubThyNeighbor]

Only the parent knows whats best for their kid imo.

I know I can teach my child well. I just choose not to do it all of the time. My almost 3yr old loves her afternoon preschool 2 afternoons for 2 hours. She wants to go more than that. If she is having more fun in a great environment then its great for everybody imo.  We are trying out 5 mornings in the fall at the local Waldorf. I think she will be so happy with all the kids. Not all kids thrive in environments like that though. Mine is just very independent and has an extreme need for being social. I dont know if my infant will bre the same. If she isnt, she will stay home longer. It's not about me or being dogmatic. I had thought when the 3 yr old was a baby that I'd have her home for a lot longer but that doesnt fit her.

Ive been hearing / reading about all sorts of militant moms who think they need to be with their kids 24/7. If that works for you AND your kids, that's great. It's not for most people for a variety of reasons.

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by RubThyNeighbor 

Only the parent knows whats best for their kid imo.

I know I can teach my child well. I just choose not to do it all of the time. My almost 3yr old loves her afternoon preschool 2 afternoons for 2 hours. She wants to go more than that. If she is having more fun in a great environment then its great for everybody imo.  We are trying out 5 mornings in the fall at the local Waldorf. I think she will be so happy with all the kids. Not all kids thrive in environments like that though. Mine is just very independent and has an extreme need for being social. I dont know if my infant will bre the same. If she isnt, she will stay home longer. It's not about me or being dogmatic. I had thought when the 3 yr old was a baby that I'd have her home for a lot longer but that doesnt fit her.

Ive been hearing / reading about all sorts of militant moms who think they need to be with their kids 24/7. If that works for you AND your kids, that's great. It's not for most people for a variety of reasons.

Yeah, not using childcare/preschool/nursery/not doing what "most people" do = militant.  The lack of respect women have for one another and the choices one another make is seriously depressing.

[RubThyNeighbor]

No being militant has nothing to do with doing what everyone or no one does. I dont think you had good reading comprehension if thats what you though i was saying. It has to do with not being flexible and being too rigid in your ways. Personally, I think it's great that some kids get to stay with their parents a ton. Im sure there are those who that is best for. That's cool for them if it works for who they are and want to be. I just don't see how the thread starter and people like her think that everyone is like them. Or that claim to 100% know if kids are better off with parents or teachers or nannies or grandparents or what. That's not how it is at all. Families have different needs. Kids have different needs. Hopefully people take time and evaluate what those are to find what fits them.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by RubThyNeighbor 

No being militant has nothing to do with doing what everyone or no one does. I dont think you had good reading comprehension if thats what you though i was saying. It has to do with not being flexible and being too rigid in your ways. Personally, I think it's great that some kids get to stay with their parents a ton. Im sure there are those who that is best for. That's cool for them if it works for who they are and want to be. I just don't see how the thread starter and people like her think that everyone is like them. Or that claim to 100% know if kids are better off with parents or teachers or nannies or grandparents or what. That's not how it is at all. Families have different needs. Kids have different needs. Hopefully people take time and evaluate what those are to find what fits them.

The Op's thread was not about whether or who should stay home with their mother.  That is a decision for individual families to make.

It is about why some in society feel that mothers in general are not qualified or capable of watching their young children.

It is definitely something I have seen in real life - people (usually experts) implying kids are better off at preschool or daycare "where there will be trained experts to care for and stimulate them."

[treeoflife3]

[mamaprovides]

I havent read all the posts as I am about to run around like a headless chicken getting everyone out the door. But here are my thoughts (typed on an iPod so please forgive the grammar)...

Are there lazy parents? Yea sure. And if that is the case, then I'm glad their kids are in daycare. 
Are there bad parents? Unfortunately...again yea daycare/preschool. 

But this I don't think reflects the majority. 
Here are some things to keep in mind...
Culturally, we are being told that a company, corporation, agency...someone other than you can do many simple things in our lives...so why not a complicated one like childcare. (this is not intended as inflammatory!) We are constantly told about the importance of early this-and-that as well as scientific research and so on ...socialization, school readiness, better education than our parents, giving my kid the best money can buy, jump start...you get the idea
and just like Cosmo makes our thighs feel large, this stuff makes us feel inferior parents.  I think women are a huge target for this. It only takes a couple of days of cleaning poop off the floor, fighting about what why a tutu is not an appropriate winter coat, and spending 3 hours buying canned goods at the market only to see the woman with the perfect hair, perfect make-up (Grrr), and her 3 year old is quietly reading Kant and commenting how she really would rather more vegetables and fiber in her diet to make you feel inferior and ill equipped. 

This is a fragment of a larger cultural profile. One I personally don't like but many just don't have a problem with and quite enjoy. 

Then there are many of us that just can't do it right now... There is just NO way that any parent is good at every stage of aging, patenting and development...it's an unrealistic fantasy (a fantasy I constantly dream by the way) it isn't practical and it is a very hard on the soul. So many people are not good with preschoolers. And thats okay. They are difficult, obnoxious, impractical, flighty, irrational, Id-centric, altruistic, moody people. (they are also many wonderful things too) If this is something you can't handle, it is the right parenting choice to put them somewhere where better...where at the end of the day you stand in the doorway and look at their cherub faces with love instead of contempt followed by guilt followed by self loathing. 

The truth there are just those kids that NEED high levels of stimulation...not as many as fill the centers but nonetheless. And the rest of these children thrive or at least do well in these places so it does not seem like a bad idea. 

And this is the age where most strong conflicts come up. They have a PHD in you! The child can say wounding things has the verbal and cognitive ability to fight about what a horrid driver you are FOR DAYS. It is easy to send them away and think the problems will go away. Homeschoolers run into this often. 

Sending children to daycare/preschool (working or not) is a lifestyle and parenting choice. It isn't bad and it isn't good. It just is. 

With that said...I am a SAHM, I homeschool and I bed share. Because of circumstances I have ZERO childcare. My kids go to my doctors appointments (my four year old son explains menstration to my obgyn while I'm in stirrups making the whole thing that much more grim btw), I am with my children 21 hours a day (2 hrs after they go to bed and 1 hr after my husband gets home are my breaks). There have been days when I call my husband and tell him he has 45 minutes to come home and I put the kids in the bedroom or lock myself in the bathroom crying. There are days I wish I had someone to talk to that wasn't selling me something. There are days when we eat cereal for dinner because I just never made it 1/2 mile to the market. I brush my hair twice a week. My house is an absolute mess. And this is not my best patenting moment (I am good with middle schoolers!)
but my kids have tons of book read daily, tons of educational material, tons of field trips, they are happy, well adjusted, polite people. I also get to go the market with batman and supermans...the ENTIRE family has dressed as characters from the book fox in socks (even the dog) to go to the park. I have had to halt conversations with the landscape contractor because my 4 year old put hardhats and shoes (wrong feet) on both himself and the 2year old to come out to see the excavator but between the hardhat and shoes NOTHING! ^_^
We have made the choice to have significantly less money, live in a less affluent town, and I am very isolated. There are many who think this is a bad choice and completely illogical (as my motherinlaw is keen to mention EVERY SINGLE TIME she communicates to us. )

There are many who think it isn't worth the pain. And that's okay. It's a lifestyle choice. 

I hope that helps you reconcile this. 

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by mamaprovides 
Here are some things to keep in mind...
Culturally, we are being told that a company, corporation, agency...someone other than you can do many simple things in our lives...so why not a complicated one like childcare. (this is not intended as inflammatory!) We are constantly told about the importance of early this-and-that as well as scientific research and so on ...socialization, school readiness, better education than our parents, giving my kid the best money can buy, jump start...you get the idea
and just like Cosmo makes our thighs feel large, this stuff makes us feel inferior parents.  I think women are a huge target for this. It only takes a couple of days of cleaning poop off the floor, fighting about what why a tutu is not an appropriate winter coat, and spending 3 hours buying canned goods at the market only to see the woman with the perfect hair, perfect make-up (Grrr), and her 3 year old is quietly reading Kant and commenting how she really would rather more vegetables and fiber in her diet to make you feel inferior and ill equipped. 
This is a fragment of a larger cultural profile. One I personally don't like but many just don't have a problem with and quite enjoy. 
 

So, do you feel that mothers themselves create the paradigm that preschool, etc. is better for children than staying home with a parent, or that is just an extension of a need for more choices, or do you think that this idea originated both culturally and institutionally, with mothers seen as imperfect and less capable of handling the business or handling kids?

I *would* say it arose simply as a viable and helpful option, if it weren't for other mothers themselves criticizing me for keeping my kids at home, and what they say about it.  Anything from "You *have* to have a break" to "You're kids need socialization" (implying it can be had nowhere else) and onward into the realm of education and then comes the "trained teacher/professional" part of it.  As a HSer this extends even further.  All in the vein that I am doing my children a disservice for not choosing it.  

And if were just mothers saying this, I might think that it is just a two-way street, with each thinking her choice is best.  But it extends far beyond that, into the teaching profession, universities, the media.  There is so much pressure from every direction to choose this option, and while they don't directly say that mothers are inferior and incapable, they say everything but.

That has been my experience, anyhow.  That this is not just driven by the need for choices, but by a perception that because parents lack the professionalism, they are not the best choice.

[mamaprovides]

Firstly I wouldn't say mothers I would say parents. 

And although a little harsh I wouldn't say they created the paradigm so much as bought into it. 

I mean we've all seen the ads: the disheveled mom with messy hair becomes the beautiful soccer mom in khakis because she uses cleaner X to clean her bathroom and isn't she a better mom? Don't you want to be that mom? Now, is my house not as clean because I use vinegar and thyme oil to clean my bathroom AND am I not as thoughtful a mom? (and yes, it has come up)

I hate to sound all über feminist but moms are women thus more inferior at doing anything. Don't you worry your pretty little head and let this institution do it better. Now, does this mean I think all parents that send their kids off are mindless drones? Absolutely not! A well considered and rationalized parenting decision is almost always valid. I fear for the parents that don't ask the question or are bullied into it. I especially feel for the parents that are forced by finical need to put their children in preschool/daycare. 

you know, it's funny. Being a mother is the ONLY thing I have ever been confident about. So the critiques and the judgmental people really don't get me too deep. (my motherinlaw called once a week while I was pregnant to tell I WOULD...as in fact...kill the baby if I had a homebirth...there is woman I run into every several months who ALWAYS makes a comment on how poor of a parent I am for selfishly risking the lives of my children for bed sharing.)
The key is to remember: many are just insecure and that insecurity breeds this judgmental behavior. Your nonconformist spits in the face of their choices.  And many are misinformed.
Now don't get me wrong...when these comments come my way I am either tiffed, annoyed, offended or enraged. It's hard to let this just roll off my mama bear back. (maybe if I was more of a mother hen ^_^)

As far as professionalism goes...
Well...here I have to giggle...let's do the math...is a lawyer not a professional after 3 years? How about a teacher...teachers (awesome, love them, thank you) work 180 days (give or take) they work...about 50-60 hours a week (only paid for 37hrs). As a SAHM, let's say a conservative 96 hrs a week (paid in room & board)...how are you not a professional? Are you qualified to mandate policy in a preschool? Maybe not. Are you qualified to mandate policy in your home? Without a doubt!  How are you nota qualified professional. 
Many homeschoolers use a curriculum, so the leg work is done but preschool shouldn't use one and in the age of information and almighty google how are you not qualified? No, you don't have a college degree in mommy...but most computer geeks don't have a degree in technology and they are experts in their field...why not us? You know how they learned? trial and error at 3am...well now, ain't that a coinky-dink us too! 

And at the risk of sounding argumentative, our culture is about the individual not the family unit. It's all about right now and the best or at least better than the next person and consumerism...

The need for breaks...some need more time to process emotion or something...I don't know...but you aren't going flat out 24/7 are you? 
I mean, I am one of the most unsupported SAHMs I know and I get 3 - 5 hrs in a 24 hr day. 

Socialization. Sigh. Here I turn up my nose. We live in a world with people of all ages. Wouldn't a child do best there? Instead they are put in a very unnatural state of all people of the same age..creepy sci-fi thoughts aside, what are they learning socially? Earlier this week my son saw me giving an elderly woman the right of way and reach the top shelf for her. We talked about why I did this for her and not the other lady (mid 20's) and we talked about respect...today in the super market while pushing his silly little child cart he gave the right of way to an elderly couple then turned and said,"I can't reach the top shelf but I can reach the very bottom. Do you want some of these cans...these don't look so good maybe different ones." and you know what, they did let him grab some beans while the old man talked about back pain. My son was so proud and felt useful as all preschoolers want to feel. How is that not socialization? When the 8 year old won't share the slide at the park my son learns how to deal with it...socialization. When we fight about why I can't go back in time and uncut his apple and we negotiate new rules and labor distribution negotiations of who peels and who cuts the apple...guess what socialization. 

It is hard to get these comments. Trust me I get it. 

I'm not sure if I did a better job of explains myself. 

[Kindermama]

People do it because they think they are giving their child the best "start" in life. People believe lies! 

[pek64]

Wasn't it on MDC that I read this? Perhaps not.

It started with inner city kids from working parents being behind those who had a stay at home parent. (1970's)
So, preschools were created as part of the head start program.
Parents who could afford it wanted preschools for their kids, too, so the preschool business boomed.(late 70's)
Then programs started competing for tuition dollars (or the local currency), and preschools began advertising how they could di so much more than both other preschools and parents.(1980's)
Enough time passed with those messages bombarding parents, and
. Parents begin to believe they cannot compete with preschools.

I wish I had the source info. I'll see if I can find it again.

[rdehoff-us]

The choice of a parent(s) whether or not to stay at home with their child or use an educational facility like a preschool is just that A CHOICE.  I honestly believe in most cases the parent understands his/her child's needs better than anyone else.  Some people do not have the resources, time, or energy to school at home.  Some people work and that is providing for the needs of the children and making sure the child's schooling needs are met in the meantime.  Some people simply choose not to for whatever reason and it is THEIR REASON to make for the best interest of their family. 

However, that being said I am a SAHM and in favor of homeschooling.  I don't think any less of anyone who doesn't school at home, but that is a choice I made to be there every step of the way on the path to my child's enrichment and I am fortunate enough to be in a situation where I can personally be this involved.  I do agree there is a certain stigma against homeschooling or even just staying at home taking care of a baby instead of utilizing a daycare that I struggle with occasionally.  I think to myself, "Am I providing my kid with enough outlets outside of home, activities, and expectations as well as care?"  It also challenges me to constantly reevaluate how I do things and keep myself in check with what is in the best interests of my child.  I wish there were more people out there who were supportive of this decision though.  It is also up to us to not reflect these same judgements on others who do not keep their kids home with them.  Otherwise you get what you give. 

[sparklefairy]

I haven't read the entire thread. I want to be very clear that I absolutely DO NOT agree with this perspective. But from a child protection standpoint, kids are "safer" in school/in daycare because "there are more eyes on them."

So there's another place it might come from.

[homeschoolingmama]

I think people take this point of view with many things.  I understand what you mean.  I don't think every family should have kids that stay home.  Every family is different.  People do start believing that we are incapable to think for ourselves and benefit from it.  Homeschooling is the same way.  Kids should be taught by professionals.  Parents are not qualified.  From experience, this is baloney.  Of course we are qualified.  We aren't morons!  We are just taught over and over again that a parent couldn't possibly teach their own child!  Same goes for doctors.  Of course they are more qualified but parents are taught to follow their doctor's advice no matter what.  Vaccinations?  Of course!  You are a doctor and the only person who has a mind!  Please, vaccinate my child.  Same goes for any medical help.  Doctors know best.  Parent follow along because we are unqualified.  So I think this happens in society, not just Preschool.  

[UnicornFeather]

Quote:

Parents are not qualified.

This is what bothers me. Obviously, common sense says I shouldn't handle the dentestry needs of my children. :P LOL But seriously, I hate this idea that the *parent* is the least qualified person to raise their child! O.o How frustrating. So what, I'm just an incubating milk-factory? Bite me world! ::giggle:: And true... I have met parents that lacked decent abilities, sure. But seriously, what an awful blanket statement to say about our society.