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How often does your 4 year old have tantrums??

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 

cross posting in gentle discipline

 

I am writing because DS1 (4) has been over the top with tantrums lately, and I'm just not sure if it still falls within the range of normal. He has always been high on the intensity, persistence, and sensitivity scales (highly spirited as Mary Sheey Kurcinka would say). And, another factor is that he is in the middle of transitioning from 1 to no naps. He has been getting a nap about once or twice a week only for the last few weeks. So, I recognize that sleep may be an issue. Also, we have had a new care provider for the last two weeks or so, and he is having trouble warming up to her. I understand this may also be contributing.

 

But, here is an example. Yesterday, we were going to go to a favorite store that also happens to sell ice cream. He was excited, and said, "can I get ice cream??" I said, maybe he could have a hot dog first (some food/dinner/protein). He said, "no, I just want ice cream." I said before we could go, we had to finish putting things away. I said his job with his brother was to put away the cotton balls they had strewn all over the floor. He said, "no!!" I offered to help, said we would do it together, and emphasized that we had to finish cleaning up before we could go. All this time, DH and I were putting things away/cleaning up while talking about it. That's when the tantrum started. He did not want to help, he just wanted to go. He cried and was sad and angry. Then, his dad kindof made it worse by asking him to do something once he was already so upset, and of course he did not comply, and then dad yelled that we weren't going anywhere. Tantrum worsened. I tried a couple of times to go up to him and say, you seem very sad, to try to connect, but he was not reachable. DH did the yelling again. Then, DS2 (15 months) approached him, and he lashed out and apparently hit baby brother (I didn't see it, DH did). DH took him upstairs for an "automatic time out" for hitting. Crying continues. DH is in the room with him for the time out. By this time, he had worked himself up considerably, and was very, very upset. I give it about 4 minutes, ask to come in. I then take DS1 out of the room and rock him in a rocking chair, telling him it's okay. He did not want baby brother in the room. He drank some water, and finally calmed down. I'd say the whole episode must have gone on for about 25 minutes or so. We then talked about what happened, and I asked him how he felt when his dad yelled, and we talked about patience. Then, we talked about being helpful. He then stated calmly that he still wanted to go to the store, and I asked if he could think of something helpful to do that would convince his dad to go. He couldn't think of anything, so I suggested a job (cleaning up markers that baby brother had dropped all over the floor). He did that nicely and then told his dad. Then, we went to the store, he got a hot dog, and then ice cream.

 

That is just one example, but it is pretty typical. Huge tantrum over a very small thing. Tantrum over me saying he can't play games on my phone, over the babysitter picking him up from school, etc. Basically, we have at least one tantrum a day, varying in intensity. Sometimes there are multiple tantrums, in the morning, and in the afternoon (apparently he does well at school and with the babysitter, though the first week with the sitter he did a lot of whiny/snappy talking with her).

 

This has been going on for quite a while -- I believe it has been longer than since we got the new sitter and started dropping the nap, though I guess now that I think of it, they are pretty closely related. Is this just a rough patch that will work out, once he adjusts?

 

And, by the way, he really does not like the new sitter much, and keeps asking to stay late at school instead of having her pick him up. We can do this a couple of times a week, but not every day, because it gets expensive! In the past, I might have given in, though, and had him stay late at school -- if he really feels uncomfortable with the sitter, then maybe she's not a good fit. But, she's great with the baby, she is trained in early childhood development, and while I wouldn't probably pick her as a friend myself, she is a good, trustworthy person. So, DH feels strongly that he has to learn to deal with it, even if he doesn't like her all that much. Now that he's 4, I think he may be right.

 

Anyway, so is a tantrum a day normal in your household, particularly for highly sensitive/intense/persistent children?

post #2 of 11

That doesn't sound that out of the ordinary, but it could probably be avoided a lot if you did things a bit differently.

 

At the first "NO" or non-helpfulness we go sit down and wait, then talk about it.  When DS is ready to help nicely or not complain or whatever needs to be done, then we go do it. 

 

It takes initiative and physically moving to make it happen, but it really cuts down on the squabbling.

 

It's pretty obvious you and your DH aren't on the same page on this - maybe a new plan like the above (a cool-down spot) could help you both approach it together.

 

"Rescuing" your DS from your DH doesn't really set up a good dynamic.  When DH or I seem to be not handling things with patience, we offer to one another a break.  We are free to not take it.  I don't know if that was what you did or not, but it sounded like your DS got out of his conflict by escalating his tantrum.

 

HTH

 

Tjej

post #3 of 11

I agree with the PP- sounds normal to me.  Just try different approaches.

 

My DD is highly spirited and has rage issues- so her tantrums, sometimes a few times per day, will occasionally (used to be every time) turn into fits of rage where she was harming herself and others.  If the tantrums seem detrimental to him or if he is physically harming anyone during them, I'd look more into it.  Otherwise I think some kids just have more tantrums than others- like pushing buttons.  There is a definite line between tantrum and meltdown- they are completely different.. if you suspect there is more going on, for sure look into it.  Otherwise, let them run their course and if they bug you that much, try different approaches.

post #4 of 11

It sounds normal to me, but now that you are dropping his nap he should go to bed earlier.  He sounds either short of sleep or short of calories and since you mentioned the nap thing I think it's the sleep. My 4 year old tantrums when he's short on sleep.  Mine goes to sleep at 7 or 7:30, gets up about 12 hours later. 

post #5 of 11

Also wanted to add.. after my DD1 dropped her nap we moved bedtime up to 6pm.  They go to bed at 6 and wake up around 7 or 8.

post #6 of 11
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the replies. On days with no nap, he goes to bed at 6:45-7:00 (and actually gets more total sleep than when he does take a nap, where he won't be tired until 8:30-9 but the naps is only one hour). He wakes around 6 am, sometimes 6:30 and rarely 7. Yes, I always think it has to be hunger or tiredness. Despite getting 11 hours sleep total, he probably still feels really cranky/tired during what used to be nap time. And, he is a pretty picky eater, and I have to admit we do struggle to get him to eat/snack on a schedule on the weekends (in part for our own disorganization, and in part because he will often refuse food).

 

WindyCityMom, what? To bed at 6:00 and awake between 7 and 8? That is a LOT of sleep! I'm sure DS would do much better if he were sleeping that much, but, alas, he has always been a sleep resister and on the short end of normal for a night's sleep. A couple of times he has fallen asleep at 6:30 pm because we were in the car or something; maybe I could aim for 6:30 instead of 7 and see what happens.

 

Tjej, maybe your approach of staving of the tantrums by pulling him aside on the first no could help. It's just so hard to put everything else down (baby has needs too) to deal with his issues CONSTANTLY!! Don't get me wrong, he is a sweet, loving dear and I love him immensely, but he is seriously intense.

 

Indeed helpful to know that he is probably within the range of normal.

 

 

post #7 of 11

The nice thing about stopping it right away is that after a few times (which take forever), you hardly have to do it anymore.  Or at least with my DS.  I'll just ask him if he can calm down or if he needs to come sit and calm down.  So it is harder for a little bit, but then it is a lot easier.

 

I was thinking too - sometimes my DS just needs a snuggle when he is getting grumpy like that.  It sometimes turns his whole mood around (mine too).

 

Tjej

post #8 of 11

At that age, ds hardly ever had tantrums.

 

Dd, on the other hand, regularly had 2-3 a day. She's 7 now. We're down to one every other day or so. Always ostensibly over small things, usually they've built up from a whole set of stressors: too tired, hungry, disappointment (the day dd found out she wasn't going to be a narrator for the 2nd grade program was a tough one), frustration, or who knows what else.

 

One thing I've learned is that the tantrum is never really about the cotton balls. It's about 5 other things that are going on right now.

 

The other thing is that 4 year olds are notoriously contrary. They're trying to see, as far as I can tell, how far they can push their social boundaries. We had a distressing number of scenes like you described -- child out of control, one parent reacting badly, child ramping up, etc. Those have mostly evened out.

 

A really good book that I love is "Kids, Parents & Power Struggles" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. Your son is also at a perfect age for "Playful Parenting" by Larry Cohen. That book saved my life when dd was 4-5.

 

 

post #9 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by porcelina View Post

 

WindyCityMom, what? To bed at 6:00 and awake between 7 and 8? That is a LOT of sleep! I'm sure DS would do much better if he were sleeping that much, but, alas, he has always been a sleep resister and on the short end of normal for a night's sleep. A couple of times he has fallen asleep at 6:30 pm because we were in the car or something; maybe I could aim for 6:30 instead of 7 and see what happens.

 

 

 


 I have really high needs, high energy, spirited kids, so 14 hours of sleep works out well for us :)   She was resisting naps so that's why we moved up bedtime.  My 2yo doesn't really nap either.. she follows her sister's sleeping schedule and it works out quite well!

 

post #10 of 11
Thread Starter 

Okay, so, how do you make that happen? My DS (4) is usually up at 6:30, and sometimes as early as 5:30. He goes down at 7 pm. Did you slowly move bedtime back? Meanwhile, my 16 month old is up at 5:30 virtually every day (today was 4:45!! -- he went down at 6:45 last night). Seriously, how do they happily go to bed that early and sleep so late without waking up? They must just be natural sleepers! Without a doubt, I know my DS would be better behaved if he slept that much, but he has a hard time staying asleep.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindyCityMom View Post


 I have really high needs, high energy, spirited kids, so 14 hours of sleep works out well for us :)   She was resisting naps so that's why we moved up bedtime.  My 2yo doesn't really nap either.. she follows her sister's sleeping schedule and it works out quite well!

 



 

post #11 of 11

We have a very long, drawn out bedtime routine that they both look forward to.  I moved bedtime back on a day where my DD1 had no nap and was very cranky.  She would wake up at the same time each morning regardless of bedtime.  DD2 didn't start sleeping in the same room with her up until recently.. she was a co-sleeper, and we went to bed late.. somewhere around 11pm.  The bedtime routine is something she looked forward to, so it wasn't difficult to get her to sleep in her sister's room.  My kids just are natural sleepers, I guess!

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