Anyone here with kids who use Khan Academy?

[boston_slackermom]

I will be meeting with DD's 2nd grade teacher soon to discuss DD's math development, since DD has quickly mastered regular math material through 5th grade.  The teacher wants to have DD use Khan Academy in the classroom, and she will be a "test-case" for the school since she will be the first kid to use it in her class, and possibly the first at her K-5 school.  Since this is a first for the teacher, I have a chance to establish from the beginning how the program will be used for DD.  I would love to hear from anyone with kids who have used Khan Academy, and how it has worked for them. 

For DD, Khan Academy will be a supplement, rather than an alternative, to standard 2nd grade math, as the school system requires DD to participate in the regular 2nd grade math instruction time, and to take the end of unit assessments with her class (about once per month).  The school uses FirstInMath.com for kids to practice their math skills on-line at home, mostly in the form of games and quizzes.  Last week DD's teacher purchased the Challenge Math books for DD to use.  We will be also be discussing the best way to use those books when we meet.

[Geofizz]

I'm not clear how it will be used for your DD.  She will be using it during class, but it will be a supplement to the class?  How much will she be participating with her class and how much will she be interacting with her teacher?

If she's that far out of sync with the class, she should be tested for a subject acceleration (or 2 or 3). 

After seeing three attempts to offload the teaching of my kids to something besides a classroom with a teacher, I've become very negative about a whole sale replacement of in-class math instruction with the computer.  Some kids are really motivated by this.  For others, it's a frustrating experience.  Our family now has experience with ST Math (the best of the options out there, but with major problems especially for the highly gifted and highly motivated), ALEKS, and Khan Academy. 

Khan has some gaping holes in video content and in problem type.  A child cannot learn math effectively well-extended beyond the classroom material without access to instruction from the teacher.  For instance, there are videos on translating degrees to radian and back, but there is not definition of radians or why one might use it.  It's also presented before the abstract algebra concepts where 'pi' can be used to stand in for a number.  These are minor gaps if the child is going to see it in a classroom or have a teacher present.  These gaps are additive and contribute to frustration if there's no teacher around.

Khan doesn't offer children the opportunity to show their work on paper, either.  Very quickly, Khan ends up resorting to multiple choice questions to put in the answers.  If your DD is working at a 5th grade level, that means multiplying and dividing large numbers, manipulating fractions, and working with triangles.  This is a key time to be developing the skills of presenting orderly work before the transition to algebra.  I also worry that the small subset of problems required to prove "mastery" is small enough to leave some misconceptions.  My kids are shockingly gifted in math, but my DD still needed more than 10 long division problems to really understand and cement the process.  Not having the reinforcement of a teacher showing her how to lay it out on a page (and to correct her early attempts) would have been difficult to recover from.

Even though my kids are difficult to educate, after a year of my DD being set aside and ignored to work on her own (ALEKS + textbook), we're discovering how bad an idea it has been, and the consequences are likely to be severe.  We will be pushing our schools from here on out to be placing our kids in an appropriate classroom where they can work with a teacher.  This is going to require coordinating schedules across grades and across schools.  We've discovered a 2 year acceleration is harder to coordinate than a 1 year acceleration, and we are now talking to the school about  ultimately a 3 year acceleration for my son (2 now, another to come from gifted placement when he hits 4th grade math).  However, computers don't give kids access to the student's thinking, and students lose out on access to the teacher's thinking.

[moominmamma]

We really like Khan Academy here ... but as an occasional supplement particularly to aid in review and gap-filling, not as enrichment or as a full curriculum. Geofizz is right about the holes and the shallowness of the applications. It's dry and boring and insufficiently varied at the arithmetic level unless you've already really mastered the skills and are just checking retention. The whole site is a great concept, but the "course of study" hasn't really been thought out in a holistic pedagogical way, since it grew organically from a few help videos to the huge site it's become. It's a little more robust at the high school level, but again, it's fairly hit and miss in covering things in ways that suit a particular learners' needs. 

Miranda

[domesticidyll]

We are partway through Art of Problem Solving's Pre-Algebra text, I am really impressed with how rigorous and thorough and thoughtful it is compared to the other things we have seen for late elementary (Singapore, Fred, Challenge Math, lots of living math, Khan). There are not a lot of problems, but they are elegant and intelligently sequenced. I think it's seventh grade rather than sixth. Would something like that be a possibility?

Personally, I think Khan is fantastic for occasional enjoyment, or for an alternative way to explain a sticky concept, but not the best stand-alone when there are so many great resources. In the OP's case, I'd rather see (a) a really amazing formal program so the child can work at level or (b) delightful living math can explore interesting tangents, something like Historical Connections in Mathematics, or, ideally, both.

Khan is free and easy for them, and probably better than the grade-level text, but isn't designed to be a gifted enhancement.

Heather

[boston_slackermom]

Thanks for sharing your experiences.  It's very helpful to hear this.  I feel more prepared for the math meeting already.  Now I just have to figure out what to say, and how to say it.  :)

To clarify about math time in class - I'm told DD has to stay with her class for regular 2nd math instruction and 2nd grade math assessments, except when she misses one math class per week to attend an advanced writing class with a few other kids.  She could do Khan or other math supplements during less structured class time, such as one of the extended reading blocks scheduled several times per week.  DD does not have the regular 2nd grade math homework.  Her teacher gives her different homework, but doesn't provide instruction for that homework during class.  She said she is willing to stay after school if DD has questions about her homework, but DD has only taken her up on that a couple of times.

I ended up teaching DD most of the math she knows, without a curriculum, mostly by answering her questions as they have come up, with what I call "kitchen table math."  And for some reason, topics such as exponents, probability, and the differences between a mean, median and mode do come up at our kitchen table.  (I just saw there is a series of books called "Kitchen Table Math," but I haven't read them.)  

I think it's probably time to put together a more formal outline of elementary math, review it with DD for the remainder of the school year to make sure we didn't miss anything, and then take the pre-algebra plunge this summer, or maybe in the fall.  With or without the school's help.

. 

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by domesticidyll 

We are partway through Art of Problem Solving's Pre-Algebra text, I am really impressed with how rigorous and thorough and thoughtful it is compared to the other things we have seen for late elementary (Singapore, Fred, Challenge Math, lots of living math, Khan). There are not a lot of problems, but they are elegant and intelligently sequenced. I think it's seventh grade rather than sixth.

Thread-jacking here. I love the AoPS books we have, but they were too much for my then-10-year-old middle dd who had just completed Singapore Primary Math and was wanting to work entirely independently. The pre-algebra book wasn't available back then. She did the first 50 pages or so of both Algebra and Geometry and then lost interest. I think it was just too much for her to deal with at that age on her own. But I was very impressed with the depth in them, and the presentation. They would have been perfect for her a year or two later, or with some teacher or parent support. I hope my younger dd gets the chance to use them some day.

My younger dd finished Singapore Primary Math a couple of months ago and has just got busy with Challenge Math. She loves it ... but is gallivanting through it at quite a clip. She's done about a quarter of the material just in the last three weeks. I'd hoped it would be enough to keep her busy for a year or two until she was old enough and mature enough for a robust high school program like AoPS, but that now seems unlikely. Though perhaps things will slow down once she gets into the sections introducing trig and calculus. So far most of it has been review, albeit with a bit more depth and a slightly different spin.

Anyway ... would AoPS Pre-Algebra be worth doing for a kid who has finished Singapore 6B and also finished Challenge Math? Or would it be mostly review as well? I confess I'm not entirely clear on what pre-algebra is, because although it's part of the US course structure that all you Americans seem familiar with, it's not a discrete subject that I can understand as a Canadian. We just call all this stuff math and learn it incrementally each year in school. To me geometry means the stuff of space and shape and position that's taught every year from KG to the end of high school, not an academic course normally taught to 15-year-olds, kwim? So I'm wondering whether you think the AoPS pre-algebra book would contain enough new material beyond the scope of Challenge Math and Singapore 6A/6B to be a challenge for her.

Any thoughts welcome!

Miranda

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by boston_slackermom 

To clarify about math time in class - I'm told DD has to stay with her class for regular 2nd math instruction and 2nd grade math assessments, except when she misses one math class per week to attend an advanced writing class with a few other kids. 

Why is this?  And who told you this?

If this is a public school, they must have an acceleration policy for both subject and whole grade acceleration.  They are often vague, and we've noticed that the evaluation is "make it up as you go along" in some cases, but there must be a policy in place.  If the school is telling you that your DD cannot be accelerated as a matter of policy, call the district office and ask for a copy of the policy.  If a child can test well on each unit test before the unit begins, then the child is poorly placed and poorly served.  Having a child sit through an hour a day of inappropriate instruction is torture, and it taught my oldest to hate math and dread school.

Considering what you've said about the fact that they say she has to participate with the class, that she already gets challenge homework, and has other things in place, I'm not sure where Khan would fit in here.  Considering that you two seem to have a good relationship working together at the kitchen table, I wouldn't bring in a screen & automated program to replace that.  Human teachers are superior to electronic ones.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by boston_slackermom 

To clarify about math time in class - I'm told DD has to stay with her class for regular 2nd math instruction and 2nd grade math assessments, except when she misses one math class per week to attend an advanced writing class with a few other kids. 

do you know what your state guidelines are about this issue? to me this sounds ridiculous. 

does the school even know how far ahead she can do in math? it seems ridiculous that YOU are her math teacher. essentially you are homeschooling in math. have they seen some of the work she does. 

if your dd is ok with your situation i would not push it too much now, but this cant be her life at school. she needs to go to a different grade for math at least next year if not now. 

i feel terrible that a 5th grade level child is having to sit through 2nd grade instruction. and take 2nd grade assessment. unless she has found her own way to entertain herself. 

[boston_slackermom]

Our state is still trying to come up with a policy for gifted/advanced learners....  Locally, the district's placement policy distributed to families only refers to grade placement in terms of repeating grades, and says nothing about skipping grades. It does say they do not allow students to start 1st grade unless they are 6 prior to September 1, and that there are "no exceptions to this rule."  They offer a compacted curriculum beginning in 4th for students who test above a certain level on a Terra Nova test in 3rd grade.

In the first week of 1st grade, the teacher had the students fill out a worksheet that said "In first grade, I want to ______________" and DD wrote "learn complikated math," and drew a picture of a teacher and child looking at multiplication problems on the blackboard.  The teacher never did a thing to differentiate math for her, even after I asked her mid-year what she could do for DD (and still nothing changed), so I started to teach DD what she was asking to learn. 

We were told that bit about having to stay with her classmates for math instruction and assessment last spring, near the end of 1st grade, when we met with the principal and 2nd grade teacher to come up with a more appropriate plan for DD.  We had asked for a full grade acceleration into 3rd, but we were told 2nd grade was much more rigorous than 1st, with much more opportunity for differentiation, and we agreed to give it a try.  DD is young, with a birthday 6 weeks before the grade cut-off, so that kept us from insisting on moving her up a grade.

As for what the school knows about her math level, as far as I can tell, they don't pretest material, or test to find the student's actual level. They test for proficiency after each unit of instruction, to see if anyone needs more work on what was covered.  I do think DD's teacher now has a better idea of DD's abilities.  She has given DD progressively harder homework as DD shows what she can do.  Now that the school uses an online math skills program that covers K-8 math (firstinmath.com), DD tried out fifth grade math on her own, and her teacher can see what she works on.  She also knows DD participates in a weekly afterschool math group, but I don't think she gets that the group is focused on math topics that aren't covered in elementary school. 

DD is very frustrated with math at school, saying it's like she's had to sit through kindergarten math every year.  Since it's a spiraling curriculum, it probably looks to her like the same material again and again.  I recently asked her what kind of math she wants to learn next, and she said "more real-life math."  Then she said "Actually, math IS life."  With that attitude, how can I leave it up to the school system to teach her on their timetable? 

These responses have made me realize that I need to make this meeting about the big picture of how to handle DD's instruction more appropriately now, and next year, rather than focusing on the details of how to use various supplements.  I'm glad I can come here to get a reality check from people who get what I'm talking about.

[meemee]

i will advice you to take this to the school, district and state level if you have to. dont bend down. you'll be very surprised what persistance does. keep at it. try finding out GT moms in your district and see what they have done. 

but i am sorry. i have a dd in 4th grade. K was hard enough for her with the boredom factor. i cant imagine her sitting thru first and second with the boredom continuing.  your dd has already gone thru k and 1st. i think you are going to 'lose' her if nothing happens soon or at least for 3rd grade. 

[domesticidyll]

OP, I hope the meeting went well!

Miranda, I am wondering the same thing from the other side--what to do after we finish the AoPS book. We didn't do the upper levels of Singapore, but glancing through 6B I'd say AoPS pre-algebra is definitely more thorough. Harder to say with Challenge Math. I misspoke; we did the elementary challenge math last year, which is substantially easier than AoPS. Glancing at Challenge Math, which I had in mind as one possibility for after AoPS, I'd guess it's more the approach and depth of AoPS than the material covered that might be useful, and some of it will be review. AoPS seems deeper, in general, more interested in lingering on why things work and how they are connected. Instead of giving the formula for a triangle's area, for instance, AoPS sets up a few different problems that explore the area of a triangle compared to a rectangle, and kind of discover the formula. The third excerpt on the website is probably most characteristic of difficulty level.

Heather

[moominmamma]

Thanks so much for the overview and comparison, Heather. I can tell now that AoPS pre-algebra would be an excellent next step if we decide to move into a US algebra program, but would be redundant if we're moving into a Singaporean secondary (i.e. 7th-grade-plus) program because it covers the same ground. We'll probably do the latter, since it aligns much better with the Canadian scope & sequence. Which is too bad in a way, because I really do love the depth of AoPS, but I think Singapore comes a close second in that respect. Your input has been very helpful!

Miranda

[boston_slackermom]

DD had a 104.6 temperature on the day of the scheduled math meeting, which turned out to be from pneumonia, so I'll have reschedule.  We have school vacation this week, so I have another week to mull it over.

When we do meet, I am going to try to keep the focus on what the school can arrange for DD for next year.  Once we have more appropriate instruction planned for the fall, we can use the remainder of the current year to help DD make the transition. I'm planning to ask the principal for a full grade acceleration for DD for the fall (skipping 3rd), with additional acceleration in math.  Her school is K-5, and the 4th and 5th grade classes have coordinated schedules in order to allow more ability-grouping in different subjects, so I think that could be a better fit for DD.  Maybe DD can spend some time with the 3rd grade over the next few months, to further demonstrate she can do the work, and to see how it goes with the older kids.

If it looks like we can't get something set up for DD with this school, we do have some transfer options (to a large K-8 school), but in order to get a spot for next year, we have to apply for a transfer in mid-March.  I think DD would stay in 3rd next year if we transfer her.  She would be eligible for more advanced classes with a compacted curriculum at the K-8, beginning in 4th, but I really don't want to keep her in limbo for yet another school year with the promise of more accelerated work a year after that.

I took a look at the AoPS website, and saw that in addition to the textbooks, they have a free "online learning system" called Alcumus, and instructional videos.  It looks like a better set-up than Khan Academy, if DD will be doing independent work in math.  I created an account for DD so she could take a look at their Pre-Algebra materials.

[captain optimism]

We have used Khan Academy at home when the math at school was too slow. Apparently my DS's school has the same policy: he has to do whatever math they are doing in class, even though he keeps testing ahead of all the other students in math achievement and ability. He's not significantly ahead in other subjects, and he does need to develop some of the executive function and word-problem solving he's getting from the school curriculum. Khan Academy is one of the good tools I have to ensure he can keep learning new things in his favorite subject. 

It's not a pedagogically innovative program and there is nothing exciting about it. For an elementary schooler, it's pleasant to have a nice man teach you something with chalk-and-talk for about ten minutes. After each very short unit, there's a very short problem set. It's not too long, the amount of material in each video is very manageable, and the student can choose to do as many as he or she would like. If a child is gifted, that can mean taking a peek at higher-level geometry or algebra or whatever. If you look at the Khan Academy website, you'll see that anyone can click on any video at any time. (Not sure whether the school will use them that way, though.)

Khan Academy was a great fit for my DS because he could work at his own pace and it didn't require him to have reading skills to match his math--which he doesn't. It sounds like your DD is ahead in all of her subjects, and the school is providing enrichment in her other subjects. This doesn't surprise me, mind you--I'm just noticing how much easier schools find it to do enrichment in reading and writing. I don't know whether I would have wanted Khan Academy to be enrichment for my son at school. Though Sal Khan is a gifted teacher, he's not standing on his head or anything--he's teaching math. I'm not sure why schools seem to find the idea that someone might like math so bewildering. It's a subject they all have to learn in school! 

On the other hand, the enrichment model with math is pretty sure to backfire. My son was told he could do more advanced math once he finished his class work, and then his teacher complained that he rushed through his review arithmetic and made mistakes. WELL DUH, LADY. Sometimes I wonder how people get to be teachers who don't seem to have ever met a kid before. 

Anyway maybe the solution is going to be for your DD to skip a grade, since it sounds like she's equally ahead in all subjects. 

[domesticidyll]

OP, maybe the Keys To... books would also work; they are very inexpensive and seem to be workable for independent learning.

Miranda, I definitely would not do the pre-algebra as an intermediate step for the next Singapore. Glad you have something that works.

And this one just made me smile, then shake my head. Seems like this attitude crops up so much more for math than LA:

On the other hand, the enrichment model with math is pretty sure to backfire. My son was told he could do more advanced math once he finished his class work, and then his teacher complained that he rushed through his review arithmetic and made mistakes. WELL DUH, LADY. Sometimes I wonder how people get to be teachers who don't seem to have ever met a kid before.

Heather