Why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers?

[slmommy]

Ugh, this article disgusts me so much, if you are worried about your blood pressure, maybe skip it!

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/02/13/anti_vaccination_attitudes_percolate_amongst_those_with_superiority_fetishes_.html

I think I need to stop reading slate. theyve had a bunch of offensive articles hating on non-vaxers, homeschoolers, etc. recently.

Quote:

What's interesting here is how revealing this whole situation is of the psychological baggage that leads a person to become an anti-vaccination fanatic. Whether it's because you think God loves you best or because you think your dedication to organic produce confers magical health benefits, the underlying sentiment of anti-vaccination believers is that they and theirs are special, and shouldn't be subject to the unclean health practices of the common folk. Vaccination is just too democratic a practice. Rich and poor, black and white, Christian or not: we all have to sit in the same chair while the same nurse pokes us with the same batch of drugs. They don't even have special needles for the better class of person getting a vaccination. Getting vaccinated is to health care like taking the bus is to transportation. The very act of it insinuates that your special snowflake of a child could become infected with germs that come from someone else's totally-not-special kid. Of course anti-vaccination attitudes are percolating amongst yuppies and fundamentalist Christians, two groups whose social identity depends on feeling superior to the masses. 

WHY is there soooo much hatred against non-vaxers/delayed/selective? Is it really the herd immunity belief? I don't even really buy that they are concerned about those who cannot be vaccinated, because they don't even seem to believe that ANYONE should not be vaccinated....I'm starting to think it's just hatred of anyone doing something different, not toeing the line. I think in someways, radical pro-vax, with extreme non-vax hatred, are trying to make themselves feel better about their own choices, or something? What are your thoughts? I guess it's easy to hate on a small group of people who are doing something different from what you do.

I hate to inform this author that vax reactions don't just happen to parents with superiority complexes or special snowflake children. vax reaction seems pretty democratic too - doesnt matter race, class, gender, etc.

ETA - another question, do you long time non-vaxers see any differences in media towards non-vax? I haven't paid attention to or researched the issue for that long, (last few years), but since I have I've noticed so much ferocity from the media, has it always been like this or getting worse?

Edited by slmommy - 2/16/12 at 7:12am

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

Ugh, this article disgusts me so much, if you are worried about your blood pressure, maybe skip it!

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/02/13/anti_vaccination_attitudes_percolate_amongst_those_with_superiority_fetishes_.html

I think I need to stop reading slate. theyve had a bunch of offensive articles hating on non-vaxers, homeschoolers, etc. recently.

WHY is there soooo much hatred against non-vaxers/delayed/selective? Is it really the herd immunity belief? I don't even really buy that they are concerned about those who cannot be vaccinated, because they don't even seem to believe that ANYONE should not be vaccinated....I'm starting to think it's just hatred of anyone doing something different, not toeing the line. I think in someways, radical pro-vax, with extreme non-vax hatred, are trying to make themselves feel better about their own choices, or something? What are your thoughts? I guess it's easy to hate on a small group of people who are doing something different from what you do.

I hate to inform this author that vax reactions don't just happen to parents with superiority complexes or special snowflake children. vax reaction seems pretty democratic too - doesnt matter race, class, gender, etc.

ETA - another question, do you long term non-vaxers see any differences in media towards non-vax? I haven't paid attention to or researched the issue for that long, (last few years), but since I have I've noticed so much ferocity from the media, has it always been like this or getting worse?

My take on this will anger some people, and I apologize in advance for doing so, but this is what I really believe.

I believe that it is the same force that drove otherwise good, kind, otherwise-Christian Germans and Austrians to hate the Jews in the 1930's and 1940's , and the same force that drives bigotry of any kind.

That force is a combination of fear, herd mentality, and a kind of survival instinct, and it's part of human nature.  It drives one to ignore facts when one feels threatened.

It is compounded by the greed of a select few, who play upon these fears. 

In the 1930's, there was a massive propaganda campaign launched against the Jews; children's books and adult cartoons depicted Jews as money-grubbing leeches who supposedly harmed innocent children.  Newspapers talked about the horrible threat against the culture from these "outsiders."

I know what I'm talking about first-hand--my father was a Holocaust survivor, and we have a newspaper clipping from 1937, with a picture of him and a schoolfriend (both born in Austria, to Austrian parents)--two little boys with dark curly hair (obviously not Aryan) wearing lederhosen and carrying schoolbooks.  The caption was about how the "Outsiders" dared to wear the Austrian national costume (which ALL schoolboys wore) and were a sign of Jews taking over Austrian culture.  And how it must be stopped.

Fast-forward to today.  Children's books and TV cartoons are filled with propaganda of how getting vaccines helps.  Newspapers are literally full of lies--there is article after article about how the "science is in," how vaccines are "proven" to not be linked with autism (no such proof exists), how Wakefield lied in a study to link MMR with autism (it wasn't a study, it was a case series, and it said very clearly, "we have NOT proved a causal association with MMR and autism").  I've even seen SEVERAL newspaper articles saying that Wakefield's study linked thimerosal in the MMR with autism (MMR does not and never has contained thimerosal, and Wakefield's case series never mentioned thimerosal).  

The press reports every year that vaccines are safe, and that thimerosal has been "removed.".No mention is made of the 1297 cases of admitted and compensated vaccine-induced permanent brain damage.  No mention is made of the many studies linking vaccines with autoimmune disease, asthma, diabetes, lupus, MS, etc. No mention is made of the fact that 90% of the flu shots available are thimerosal-preserved.  No mention is made of the fact that the adult versions of the vaccines given in the US are still thimerosal-preserved, nor of the fact that the thimerosal-preserved pediatric vaccines are still being made in the US--and shipped to third-world countries, where autism and autoimmune disease rates are suddently on the rise.

Flu shots are urged in every news media, in every drug store, on every corner.  Businesses offer financial incentives to "get your flu shot."  No mention is made anywhere of the recent studies showing that the flu shot is as effective as...a placebo.  No mention is made of the possible risks of this vaccine.  None whatever. It even says in the package insert "safety and efficacy not determined in eldery and pediatric populations."  The answer to recent studies showing especial lack of efficacy in the elderly?  Give them a DOUBLE shot.  No mention is made of the increase in reports of severe adverse effects in those getting the double shot.

Those who refuse, delay, or even QUESTION vaccines are vilified.  Parents have had children taken by various government services for refusing vaccines. California just passed a bill allowing children as young as 12 years old to be given hepatitis B vaccine, Gardasil, and other "services" relating to sexual activity WITHOUT PARENTAL KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT.  The press blames each and every outbreak of a "vaccine-preventable disease" on the unvaccinated, in spite of the fact that the vast majority of those come down with these diseases are fully vaccinated.

Just like in the 1930's, it's all about fear-mongering, and finding a group to blame, a group whose removal from the situation will result in increased profits to others.

So, just like in the 1930's, we need to ask ourselves:  who is threatened by someone turning down a flu shot, Gardasil, Rotavirus vaccine, etc??  What is being threatened?  Not their health, that's for sure. 

As always, we need to follow the money trail, because THAT'S what is being threatened, and THAT is what is being used to force compliance.  Vaccines are a multi-billion dollar business.  Money is used as the motivating factor for vaccine compliance rates in medical practices, in businesses (health insurance companies offer discounts for companies with 100% vaccine compliance rates), and health insurance rates.

The financial conflict of interest is EVERYWHERE.  The former head of the CDC is now president of Merck's vaccine division.  The head of Reuter's is on the board of Merck.  The Murdochs are on the board of Glaxo, AND own and run their own vaccine testing facility.  The doctors who teach in medical schools are also paid consultants with pharmaceutical companies--usually with SEVERAL pharmaceutical companies.  The CME (Continuing Medical Education) courses required for doctors' board certification are directly run by pharmaceutical companies.

And all the studies that purport to show how "safe" vaccines are are in some way financially tied to the very industry that profits from their sale.  This is known as "tobacco science," for obvious reasons.

The really sad thing is, we haven't changed at all in the last 80 years.  Only the group being targeted has changed.  The motivations, the methods--all the same.

Edited by Taximom5 - 2/16/12 at 10:15am

[Marnica]

Totally 100% agree with everything you have said!

[Taximom5]

Another perspective may come from this:   http://www.amazon.com/The-Wave-by-Alexander-Grasshoff/dp/B00132XZNI

It's actually an old ABC after-school TV special, only about an hour, I think, but really, really well-done.  It's based on a true story, about a California high school social studies teacher.  One day, his students ask about how all the decent people in Germany and Austria could let all the evil events in the Holocaust happen.  He tries to explain, goes home and thinks about it, and the next day tries an experiment.  He begins to run his classroom according to the methods ussed by the leaders of the SS and Hitler Youth.

He starts by instilling discipline, then pride, and then takes it further, turning their classroom into an elite group, assigning some students to have some powers over others. 

It's fascinating to watch the changes that come over the students.  At first, the discipline has only good effects, but then, as the teacher introduces the sense of elitism and the power games, some of the worst aspects of human nature begin to surface.  Good kids literally end up losing themselves to the larger group, as the group takes on more importance than the individual.

I won't spoil the ending for you (unless you pm me ask me to, of course). It's worth ordering and owning a copy (even if the DVD quality kinda sucks--it's from the 1980's and the picture is really grainy).

There's also a book, that it's based on.

I discovered this DVD when our synagogue's Hebrew School showed it to the middle school students and invited the parents.

I think it should be required viewing for all students, regardless of religion, as it's not about religion. It's about social studies, and human nature, and propaganda. And, in fact, judging by the comments at Amazon, quite a few teachers do use this in their curriculum.

[AbbyGrant]

Careful with all that nazi talk.  It could be turned around the other way...you know with all the elitism and purity.  I've seen many a anti-vaxer refer to those that are vaccinated as tainted and damaged.  Personally, I think all the bickering is stupid on both sides.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

Careful with all that nazi talk.  It could be turned around the other way...you know with all the elitism and purity.  I've seen many a anti-vaxer refer to those that are vaccinated as tainted and damaged.  Personally, I think all the bickering is stupid on both sides.

And many intactivists refer to circumcised penises as "mutilated" and "butchered".  It's all perspective.

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

It's all perspective.

And sometimes people's perspective does not match reality.  

[GoBecGo]

I vax and this baffles me too. Lots of folks i know don't vax for a large variety of reasons. Since i chose to vax i don't see what danger their differing choice is supposed to pose. I don't understand where the illogical extrapolations regarding their vax choices come from (non-vaxers think x or do y or want z). All it means to me is that they don't vax.

I suppose ultimately it probably comes from the same place as all prejudice - in evolutionary terms being a prejudiced conservative probably stops you eating the poisonous berries more often than it gets you killed in a war.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 



And many intactivists refer to circumcised penises as "mutilated" and "butchered".  It's all perspective.

Really? The foreskin is not just extra skin, its an integral part of the whole. To remove it damages the man and his penis function, forever. If that isn't mutilation, I'm not sure what is.


Back to the vaccines.. My kids have been slow vaxed and are only missing a handful of what's recommended. I have never had any issue with schools or doctors, I just say "no thanks".

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by philomom 


Really? The foreskin is not just extra skin, its an integral part of the whole. To remove it damages the man and his penis function, forever. If that isn't mutilation, I'm not sure what is.
 

My point is that some might consider vaccination to be a mutilation of the healthy, intact immune system.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 



My point is that some might consider vaccination to be a mutilation of the healthy, intact immune system.

I agree that we are by-passing the body's natural immunity by injecting a disease right into their bodies. I have mixed feelings on it but my research tells me that the cost/risk/benefit ratio is worth it in some cases.

I know two separate families that seem to spend all winter long fighting one cold after another. Kids and grown-ups. One family vaxes, the other does not. In both cases their immune system fails them. So what is the secret then? The no vax family has excellent nutrition. The vax family eats more mainstream. Both have similar homes, in similar neighborhoods and both families own pets. There must be something science has missed so far.

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

My point is that some might consider vaccination to be a mutilation of the healthy, intact immune system.

I get that, and that's all fine and good for them and their families.  It's when it crosses over to judgement about others that I was referring to.  I used come to MDC when my oldest was a baby, and I saw some spectacular examples.  Most of the choice stuff was removed of course.  

[Imakcerka]

If you dig deep you can still find some good judgey stuff.
 

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

I get that, and that's all fine and good for them and their families.  It's when it crosses over to judgement about others that I was referring to.  I used come to MDC when my oldest was a baby, and I saw some spectacular examples.  Most of the choice stuff was removed of course.  

[tillymonster]

Great responses and pretty much why I decided not to vax. DD at 4mo had, IMHO a scary reaction to the Dtap I was pretty much forced to get at the peds office. I was told nothing about the company who provided the shots. I wasn't allowed to get one at a time. Nothing mentioned about "side effects" but a tiny little paragraph at the bottom of the information I was given. All this and then I was told I'd better give DD tylenol for pain. That sure is A LOT of drugs/chemicals and who knows what into a tiny body which is growing at a crazy rate. That's the last thing her poor immune system needed. It took several days for her to go back to her happy self and her leg was swollen. They told me I didn't have to give her Tylenol for pain. Yeah. She was SCREAMING in pain for almost an hour. I didn't want to give her anything else but nursing and rocking wasn't working. It was torturous. All because it's the right thing to do. For who? All I know is I wasn't vaxed and my husband was. We both have autoimmune diseases! I just don't want to see my DD in pain. She can get her shots if she wants to when she's older. Why mess her now? I don't like fear mongering or being forced to do anything. I never get the flu or the flu shot. Talk about controlling the population... It makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[slmommy]

hmm, lots of stuff to think about. taximom5, the dvd you are talking about sounds a lot like the stanford prison experiment.

I would like to know, from those of you who have been following this issue for 5, 10+ years, if you have noticed an increase in the sentiment against anti-vaxers, or if it has always been pretty much this way? 

I am wondering if more and more parents are doing selected/delayed/non vaxing, and that is the threat, the internet and more books being published about the subject? the increased number of vax on the schedule causing more issues for parents? more info, more questions, etc.?

I also hate to go off-topic, and dont want to cause arguments about other issues, but does anyone think that the political climate towards other issues in healthcare is affecting the vaccine debate? Also not great economy at the moment... ? or is it also just some gross extension of "mommy wars?" 

I read some of the comments for the slate article I mentioned above, as much as I could handle... haha not much. the ignorance was astounding. People talking about how they get their Hep B vaccines because they eat a lot of street food and could get it that way... kids dying left and right from whooping cough... But a lot of the comments were clearly reveling in the US (good, right, smart) vs. THEM (bad, wrong, stupid) mentality. 

I know MDC used to be more extreme, but I just don't see non-vaxers passing as much judgement on vaxers. Maybe that's just me. I see a lot of pro-vaxers way way way too riled up about non-vaxers. It seems most non-vaxers in real life tend to keep quiet to avoid conflict.

[oaktreemama]

So to sum up-a bunch of privileged first world Moms fapping on the Internet about vaccines are drawing parallels between themselves and the slaughter of six million people?

GROSS.

[stik]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

Careful with all that nazi talk.  It could be turned around the other way...you know with all the elitism and purity.  I've seen many a anti-vaxer refer to those that are vaccinated as tainted and damaged.  Personally, I think all the bickering is stupid on both sides.

There are white supremacist groups that oppose vaccination because it interferes with natural selection and allows the immunologically inferior to survive disease outbreaks and contaminate the race by passing on their flawed, weak immune systems.

Quote:

The really sad thing is, we haven't changed at all in the last 80 years.  Only the group being targeted has changed.  The motivations, the methods--all the same.

I think we've changed a lot.  I think the motivations for criticizing non-vaxers and the treatment of non-vaccinators by critics are clearly substantially different from the motivations and actions of the Nazi party.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

I vax and this baffles me too. Lots of folks i know don't vax for a large variety of reasons. Since i chose to vax i don't see what danger their differing choice is supposed to pose. I don't understand where the illogical extrapolations regarding their vax choices come from (non-vaxers think x or do y or want z). All it means to me is that they don't vax.
I suppose ultimately it probably comes from the same place as all prejudice - in evolutionary terms being a prejudiced conservative probably stops you eating the poisonous berries more often than it gets you killed in a war.

This is very true.  I bet if we did a poll on the non-vaxxing forum on everything from religion, to schooling choices, etc we would find a wide variety of responses (or as wide a variety as there is on MDC.)  

[purslaine]

nm.  

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

I know MDC used to be more extreme, but I just don't see non-vaxers passing as much judgement on vaxers. Maybe that's just me. I see a lot of pro-vaxers way way way too riled up about non-vaxers. It seems most non-vaxers in real life tend to keep quiet to avoid conflict.

I think that is because the cornerstone of Non-vaxxing is parental choice.  Hence we are usually tolerant of those who choose differently.  

The cornerstone of vaxxing is not parental choice (although many parents and certainly most if not all vaxxers on MDC do choose vaxxing as opposed to it being a default).  The cornerstone of vaxxing is public health and not  choice.  Indeed some vaxxers seem to think we should be forced to vax our kids, and many laws around schools and the like do make non-vaxxing difficult.

Edited by purslaine - 2/18/12 at 1:35pm