Why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers? - Page 6

[stik]

We are not engaged in science on MDC.  We're engaged in conversation.  Nothing we say here has any impact on science.  

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by stik 

We are not engaged in science on MDC.  We're engaged in conversation.  Nothing we say here has any impact on science.  

Relevance?  You did not answer the question - just poked at MDC…..

[stik]

I think the issue of how this conversation affects science is moot, since it has no impact on science.  

If we want to have an impact on science, we need to generate some hypotheses and run some tests, i.e., we would need to do some science.  I don't think it's poking at MDC to point out that science is not what we do here.

I do want people to make informed choices.  I'd like the information they base their choices on to come from sources that are scientifically sound and rational.  It's not really an informed choice if the source you got your information from made it up to help sell snake oil, or is actively delusional, just for example.  

There are lots of reasons that people don't vaccinate.  Some of those reasons are good - based on rational assessments of accurate information.  As a person who is concerned with declining vaccination rates, I'm concerned that a growing number of people are declining vaccination because they have been misled.  I want people to make informed choices based on good information, which does not come from people who believe that water has a memory of every minute particle it's ever touched but somehow has no memory of poo.  Good information comes from many sources, but it does not come from the morally reprehensible scum who have perpetuated the AIDS outbreak by asserting that it's not caused by HIV.  It does not come from "scientists" who don't believe in polio.  These things need to be pointed out.    

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by stik 

 I don't think it's poking at MDC to point out that science is not what we do here.

I do want people to make informed choices.  I'd like the information they base their choices on to come from sources that are scientifically sound and rational.  It's not really an informed choice if the source you got your information from made it up to help sell snake oil, or is actively delusional, just for example.  

There are lots of reasons that people don't vaccinate.  Some of those reasons are good - based on rational assessments of accurate information.  As a person who is concerned with declining vaccination rates, I'm concerned that a growing number of people are declining vaccination because they have been misled.  I want people to make informed choices based on good information, which does not come from people who believe that water has a memory of every minute particle it's ever touched but somehow has no memory of poo.  Good information comes from many sources, but it does not come from the morally reprehensible scum who have perpetuated the AIDS outbreak by asserting that it's not caused by HIV.  It does not come from "scientists" who don't believe in polio.  These things need to be pointed out.    

You know - some of us non-vaxxers get our information from the CDC pink book….that isn't mentioned, however.  I guess the poo/water thing is more controversial (although: new one!  I have not heard that one before)

I agree we do no discuss science very much - for a variety of reasons.  

My strong suspicion is that a few in the pro-vax community like to keep the controversial things a minority of non-vaxxers say at the forefront as an attempt to discredit the entire movement.  The hope is that anyone lurking  or questioning will be scared away and will decide all non-vaxxers are crazy and turn towards vaxxing.  I also suspect this comes from an ends-justifies-the means sort of thinking….vaccinating is so good that who cares if we deliberately obscure any issues by highlighting controversial comments?  This patronising attitude does not sit well with me.  

Don't attempt to turn people off of vaxxing or non-vaxxing before they have even had a chance to look at the science (science not necessarily on this board).  

Edited by purslaine - 2/18/12 at 7:14am

[AbbyGrant]

Oh nevermind. This is foolishness. Carry on!

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

Quote:

Wait, who's "the pro-vax community" here? Because IIRC, I was the first one on this thread to bring up some of the controversial stuff I've seen on MDC. Are you accusing me of these sinister plans?

There is a long history of people hyper focusing on  controversial statements by non-vaxxers on MDC.

Am I accusing you?  No.  As stated way back, I think some are trying to create a halo effect, some just like drama and some are genuinely shocked by comments.  There is some overlap.

It is interesting you call it "sinister" as I expect some here think it is justified. 

Good night :)  

Edited by purslaine - 2/18/12 at 6:28am

[member234098]

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Edited by member234098 - 5/27/12 at 1:32pm

[GoBecGo]

Does one come from the "pro vax camp" if one vaxes?  Or would i have to think everyone should vax to come from that camp?

For me, someone who vaxes, i looked at each individual vaccination for relevance to my kid's life and most-likely future life (i didn't have them vaccinated for things not on the schedule - if they go to other regions they'll need to look into the vaccinations themselves) and on a case by case basis assessed whether or not i thought they were a good idea.  I never thought about whether they were a good idea for other people's kids - i assumed they would use their own reasoning to do the best thing for their own offspring.

I personally am not hiding anything from anyone.  I reported the vaccine reaction my kids both had after their first DTap/IPV/HIB vaccine.  I was expecting it (it's the tetanus component, i suffer exactly the same reaction).  When i was researching for myself i read from a variety of sources but i gave most weight to journal articles, though i did check who did the research and what else they'd done i didn't go hunting for conspiracy, because, if i'm honest, i don't believe there is one.  I know many disagree, and i know they may be right, but i feel confident in the decisions i made.  I did the research afresh for DD2 (and will again for #3 if i am so blessed).  There is nothing automatic about my decisions about vaccination (and i'm very relieved that there are another 7 years before i need to make any HPV decisions!).

I believe i had informed consent to the vaccines i chose for my kids.  If they'd had a severe reaction i could not have said i'd not known it possible.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by stik 

I do want people to make informed choices.  I'd like the information they base their choices on to come from sources that are scientifically sound and rational.  It's not really an informed choice if the source you got your information from made it up to help sell snake oil, or is actively delusional, just for example.  

Where exactly do you think we should get this info from, that is sound and rational? You like to pick apart any source that has vax critique, (and yeah, Miriam brought up Mendelsohn, but we've btdt right?)

I went to AAP and Parenting.com for vax information, these are sound, rational sources? 

Here are common questions parents have and how they are answered:

Quote:

Can my baby's immune system handle so many shots?

It's easy to be scared off by the idea of injecting your child with even an extremely weakened or inactive form of an illness. But think of this: The average bacterium that causes a common ear infection is made up of about 3,000 immune components. Every dose of every shot that your child will receive between now and age 8, added together, contain only about 150 immune components. Even when your child gets many shots at once, it's still just a tiny amount of the billions of bacteria that her immune system deals with on a daily basis.

http://www.parenting.com/article/your-most-common-vaccine-questions-answered?page=0,2

Some parents worry that too many vaccines given at one time will overwhelm their baby's immune system. But babies' bodies fight off germs every day- their immune systems are ready and waiting to keep them healthy! Vaccinations are a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of germs they fight off every day.

Infants and children are exposed to many germs every day just by playing, eating, and breathing. Their immune systems fight those germs, also called antigens, to keep the body healthy. The amount of antigens that children fight every day (2,000-6,000) is much more than the antigens in any combination of vaccines on the current schedule (150 for the whole schedule). So children's immune systems are not overwhelmed by vaccines.

http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/safety.html

I may not know that much about immunology, but this is not answering anyone's direct question about whether or not a baby's immune system can handle multiple vax at one time. Comparing directly injecting viral components, sometimes live viruses, other toxic ingredients, is NOT the same as your kid getting exposed to germs after eating food off the floor. The germs you are exposed to daily go through normal route of your body's immune protections. This is apples and oranges and does NOT point to any studies proving the short and long term consequences of receiving multiple vax at the same time. This strikes me as propaganda (whether for good or bad intentions, that's your viewpoint). Imakcerka, if anyone is assuming people are daft it is this type of mainstream "information." 

Quote:

Is it okay to skip some vaccines?

"There is not a vaccine out there that prevents a disease that couldn't potentially cause a child to be hospitalized or die," says Dr. Offit. "Why take the chance?"

http://www.parenting.com/article/your-most-common-vaccine-questions-answered?page=0,4

That is the answer given for is it ok to skip some vaccinations. Parenting.com is using Offit quotes. It does not address common concerns (that people asking this question would have) about skipping some vax, like Hep B/HPV for families who don't consider themselves at risk or want to delay until an adolescent would possibly be at risk. Also Chicken pox, a lot of parents would prefer natural immunity, or if that doesn't happen by a certain age they would consider vax. These are pretty common concerns that are not being addressed at all - you are just told your kid can die if you don't get all vaccines. 

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by stik 

I've seen one article criticizing non-vaxers in slate (which is on a tear this week - they also slammed home-schoolers).  There has always been a lot of debate on message boards.  But that's voluntary.  Walk away from the message boards and you walk away from a lot of the debate.  I see people complaining about difficulties caused by their decision not to vax online, but not in my day-to-day life.  And even online, not for choices like mine, which involved weighing everything carefully and then mostly following the recommended schedule.  

I've seen physicians turning more attention to the reasons for non-compliance with the vaccine schedule lately.  As vaccine rates drop, risks of disease increase.  I know my pediatricians have really enjoyed seeing less meningitis and way fewer cases of measles than the doctors who trained them, so I can see how doctors, in aggregate, would be turning their attention to online communities and discussions of vaccination now.  Communities like MDC may be one major driver of the falling vaccination rates.  To those for whom this is a concern, sites like MDC, and the attitudes they have expressed, are worthy of scrutiny and criticism.

Some of that stuff is really old, but some of it was said on MDC last month.  It's still up.  

So you are suggesting I not get bothered by comments on online news articles, forums, blogs, facebook, etc. (you're right that's where most of the strongest hatred is), but at the same time you are very concerned with what someone some years ago said on MDC. MDC is worthy of scrutiny and criticism but pro-vax commentary on message boards isn't? This is a bit hypocritical, no? MDC message boards are deserving scrutiny and criticism because they are saying something YOU don't agree with?

Just because you personally have not faced any issues with del/sel vax or exemptions, or noticed or been bothered by news, tv commercials, commentary online, etc. doesn't mean other people haven't had these experiences. If you are going to discount all the experiences of people posting here, I don't know how I can continue conversation. It's not happening because it's not happening to me??

I believe VT is trying to currently remove their philosophical exemptions. More pedis and drs are refusing kids not vaxed 100% to schedule. Parental consent not needed in Cali. Workplaces requiring vaccines are becoming more stringent and removing exemptions. More vax are continually being added to schedule (looks like HPV for boys soon or is it already?). A lot of social commentary is being thrown around about non-vaxers being threats to society or equating vax choice as child abuse. Advertisements for flu vax have increased dramatically. New articles about vaccine issues regularly have one liners about some parents not vaccinating because they are religious extremists or falsely worried about autism (or jenny mccarthy...).  I don't have a very long perspective on this topic (since I've only been paying attention 2-3 years), but others are saying that things are becoming MORE polarized, and I believe that, from what I have observed.

Do you think anti-vax stuff on MDC should be censored? Like when someone brings up AIDS denialism (I have no clue about this topic), should their comment be taken off? 

Edited by slmommy - 2/18/12 at 5:50am

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

Does one come from the "pro vax camp" if one vaxes?  Or would i have to think everyone should vax to come from that camp?

No. There are many types of people and decisions that go into vaxing, sel/del, non-vaxing. To call everyone who vaxes part of the rabid pro-vax camp is not fair, just as it is not fair to call all non-vaxers a certain thing - religious radicals, jenny mccarthy followers, etc.

I am concerned about the part of the pro-vax camp that seems to want to take away vax choice, and harshly judges anyone's vax concerns or choices.

I'm glad you felt that you had informed consent for your decisions. I hope that that is/can be true for all people and continues, along with choice. Sounds like you agree?

Edited by slmommy - 2/18/12 at 6:00am

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

Do you think anti-vax stuff on MDC should be censored? Like when someone brings up AIDS denialism (I have no clue about this topic), should their comment be taken off? 

I don't think it should be censored - but I do think it should be moved to either the more general health forum or the news and current events forum (if that is still running).  What AIDS denialism and non-vaxxing have do with each other is beyond me and it just muddies the issues.  

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by emmy526 

nowadays, we have parent who are SO fearful of chicken pox, they are hysterical even knowing there might be a case somewhere in town.  And that's the ones who's kids are vaxed for it, too....actually, i have witnessed MORE parents who's kids are vaxed freak out over every little sniffle their kid has, freak out because johnny's classmate is not vaxed,  but its ok if their kids picks at the dirt on the bottom of their shoes, and then puts their fingers in their mouth.....

I've read halfway through this debate and will read more tonight, but I wanted to comment because I need to head to work.  I think the "snowflake" comment in the article refers to vaxing parents, not non-vax parents.  Maybe someone has mentioned it in the last 50 posts, but this is what I got from the article right away.  I quoted emmy526 because I think the attitude she mentions was the one being lambasted by the author in that particular statement.

In our state, the whooping cough rates are among the highest in the nation and the rise is being blamed full-square on non-vaxers.  This, I think, is the main fuel to the non-vax hysteria in our state (I use "hysteria" rather flippantly here.)  I agree with a pp that many vaxing parents believe these diseases to all be deadly, specifically to children.  Knowing otherwise has made me rethink my kids' own vaxes. 

As far as being privileged first-world mamas, yeah that's right.  We have the luxury to be free of polio in this country.  We also have a democracy where other countries are struggling with basic human rights.  But I'm still going to argue politics and live according to my conscience, regardless of "privilege".  I'm not going to shut up about the issues I think are right because I have more freedom than others.  So, privilege or not, we can have the vax- no-vax argument.
 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

Where exactly do you think we should get this info from, that is sound and rational? You like to pick apart any source that has vax critique, (and yeah, Miriam brought up Mendelsohn, but we've btdt right?)

I went to AAP and Parenting.com for vax information, these are sound, rational sources? 

Here are common questions parents have and how they are answered:

I may not know that much about immunology, but this is not answering anyone's direct question about whether or not a baby's immune system can handle multiple vax at one time. Comparing directly injecting viral components, sometimes live viruses, other toxic ingredients, is NOT the same as your kid getting exposed to germs after eating food off the floor. The germs you are exposed to daily go through normal route of your body's immune protections. This is apples and oranges and does NOT point to any studies proving the short and long term consequences of receiving multiple vax at the same time. This strikes me as propaganda (whether for good or bad intentions, that's your viewpoint). Imakcerka, if anyone is assuming people are daft it is this type of mainstream "information." 

That is the answer given for is it ok to skip some vaccinations. Parenting.com is using Offit quotes. It does not address common concerns (that people asking this question would have) about skipping some vax, like Hep B/HPV for families who don't consider themselves at risk or want to delay until an adolescent would possibly be at risk. Also Chicken pox, a lot of parents would prefer natural immunity, or if that doesn't happen by a certain age they would consider vax. These are pretty common concerns that are not being addressed at all - you are just told your kid can die if you don't get all vaccines. 

Brilliantly put.

I would add that it is rather untruthful of Offit to talk ONLY of the antigens, when most of us are questioning the mercury (still in 90% of the flu shots, which are given concurrently with other vaccines), aluminum, and other ingredients which are not adequately tested for safety.

He also doesn't mention the 1297 admitted and compensated cases of vaccine-induced brain damage. In his own words, "why take a chance?"

He also doesn't mention that he is the inventor and patent holder of the Rotateq vaccine, currently on the schedule for all babies, whether at risk or not (few are in developed countries), in spite of safety concerns, including known contamination: http://www.medpagetoday.com/ProductAlert/DevicesandVaccines/19986

I'm sorry, but there is such a thing as lying by omission. Offit is clearly guilty of this here.
Edited by Taximom5 - 2/18/12 at 8:43am

[stik]

SLMommy, I've been very open about being pro-vax.  I think Offit has a tendency to brush over people's anxieties when he thinks those anxieties are irrational, and that hasn't won him any friends, but while I think his "bedside manner" sucks, I agree with a lot of his ideas. I think that the rational reasons to not vax tend to be highly individualized - egg allergy, for example - and the reasons to vax tend to be more applicable to the broader population.  I am never going to see eye-to-eye on this issue with anyone who posts in the "I'm not vaccinating" forum.  I'm not one of you.  I'm just here for the Nazis.  Nazis and Rhogam are basically the only reasons I read the Not Vaccinating Forum, ever.  My point about exemptions was that I'm not criticized for using them because, although I engaged in a careful research process about stuff, I've only opted out of one vax ever, and only for one of my kids.  If it is happening, I wouldn't know because it's not happening to me.  That said, facing criticism that you can voluntarily shut off is not the same as being a victim of Nazi persecution.  

Since I'm here though, I might as well mention the "no consent needed in California" thing.  The parental consent that's not needed in Cali is consent for treatment and prevention of STDs.    That's an important public health measure because, unfortunately, there are plenty of teenagers who would literally rather die than tell their they've had (or are considering having) sex.  

Lots of things are worthy of scrutiny.  I don't use my personal time to scrutinize all of it.  If you think something is going unscrutinized that needs a good scrute, have at it.  

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by stik 

  That said, facing criticism that you can voluntarily shut off is not the same as being a victim of Nazi persecution.  

I don't recall saying that. And I don't believe taximom5 was saying that either, I'm not sure if she wants to further explain, she will...again.

In regards to the "consent thing in cali," I just abbreviated it to that as I think most people here are familiar with the issue and its specifics, to a fuller degree than the way I abbreviated it... the post I wrote was getting long.

About what you mentioned earlier about MDC, potentially being a factor in falling vax rate, well I think that there is definitely potential for that to go the other way and encourage vax... how many times has someone new to the issue fallen here and seen something they consider totally whackadoodle and get put off from the whole sel/del/non vax concerns? 

But as long as children are reacting to vaccines, I'm pretty sure there will always be a non-vax segment.

[stik]

Quote:

About what you mentioned earlier about MDC, potentially being a factor in falling vax rate, well I think that there is definitely potential for that to go the other way and encourage vax... how many times has someone new to the issue fallen here and seen something they consider totally whackadoodle and get put off from the whole sel/del/non vax concerns? 

I don't know, but as a pro-vaxer, I consider every one a success.  If you're going to be completely whackadoodle, please wave your freak flag high.  IMO, it's a service to public health.  

I support discontinuing vaccination for children who have had a reaction to vaccines.  That's a great example of a specific individual reason to no longer vaccinate that does not apply to the population in aggregate.  The vast majority of children are not going to have an adverse reaction.  

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by stik 

I am never going to see eye-to-eye on this issue with anyone who posts in the "I'm not vaccinating" forum.  I'm not one of you.  I'm just here for the Nazis.  Nazis and Rhogam are basically the only reasons I read the Not Vaccinating Forum, ever.  

Haha, I'm sorry, I just find this kinda funny. So if I ever wanna discuss something with you, I just need mention nazis and rhogam? Like the bat signal?  
 

[Taximom5]

]

Originally Posted by stik 

;My point about exemptions was that I'm not criticized for using them because, although I engaged in a careful research process about stuff, I've only opted out of one vax ever, and only for one of my kids.  If it is happening, I wouldn't know because it's not happening to me...I'm just here for the Nazis.  

Ah. Now we have the real issue.

"If it is happening, I wouldn't know, because it's not happening to me.". I'm wondering how you can say, "I wouldn't know," when so many of us have been screaming from the rooftops that it HAS happened to us, and to others. I even posted an article on this thread about a family who was harassed at their home by a school official and the school nurse, who arrived with syringe to forcibly give their child a DTaP, with a TV news crew who broadcast their personal and medical information.

And you say, "if it is happening, I wouldn't know, because it's not happening to me."

From http://www.scrapbookpages.com/buchenwald/exhibits.html "We didn't know." This was what the German civilian population would say over and over again about the concentration camps in the coming months.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by stik 

I don't know, but as a pro-vaxer, I consider every one a success.  If you're going to be completely whackadoodle, please wave your freak flag high.  IMO, it's a service to public health.  

As someone who supports a parent right to choose without having issues muddied......

I really wish those who have something not vaccine related would wave their freak flag elsewhere. 

We don't want to turn off anyone from exploring non-vaxxing because of halo effect.  This is the non-vaxxing subforum.  As stated above - health or current events might be good places for many controversial  ideas floated here. .  Personally, I would appreciate it if mods would move such topics elsewhere if people forget -  they have no business here.

Edited by purslaine - 2/18/12 at 9:11am