The reason you do not see people loosing a year due to rheumatic fever as often as you did before is because strep throat is not aggressively diagnosed and consistently treated with antibiotics unlike in the good olde times.
Wait, I thought strep could turn into scarlet fever? My friends son just had a two week bout with strep that she said turned into scarlet fever. Then again, the kid gets antibiotics every other month for some infection. Kid is always sick. Maybe I'm getting things mixed up.
The reason you do not see people loosing a year due to rheumatic fever as often as you did before is because strep throat is not aggressively diagnosed and consistently treated with antibiotics unlike in the good olde times.
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Wait, I thought strep could turn into scarlet fever? My friends son just had a two week bout with strep that she said turned into scarlet fever. Then again, the kid gets antibiotics every other month for some infection. Kid is always sick. Maybe I'm getting things mixed up.
Don't even know what that is. Honestly, I've gotten strep throat once in my life. I never take antibiotics, except once for mastitis and that one time for strep. Never before adulthood. So for me I really don't know about what that entails. By the way... I found out I was allergic to pretty much all of them. Fingers crossed I never get anything. But then again hives are my life so it's not that terrible.
Wait, I thought strep could turn into scarlet fever? My friends son just had a two week bout with strep that she said turned into scarlet fever. Then again, the kid gets antibiotics every other month for some infection. Kid is always sick. Maybe I'm getting things mixed up.
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Yes we did. To be honest though, I didn't see any examples in your answer of discrimination, punitive or otherwise, that you actually experienced first hand. Given your view that it's like Nazi Germany out there, I expected more. Some of it seemed like pure speculation (how could you possibly know what all policies are at all the pediatricians offices and all the church/synagogue childcare programs in your area unless you live in an extremely tiny town and have an enormous amount of free time). Trouble, annoyance, and misunderstandings don't constitute discrimination. Casually tossing around the word "discrimination" diminishes the experience of those who suffer real injustices.
Given your own admission that your children's pediatrician is supportive plus what others have said here about their non-discriminatory experiences as non-vaxers plus what I've experienced in my own life as a selective/delayed vaxer for my children and as someone who's declined workplace flu shots without ramification, I can say with great certainty that your assertion that "ALL" daycare centers, preschools, schools, doctors, churches/synagogues, and workplaces "have policies that punitively discriminate" against those that don't vaccinate and that "ALL" people who don't vaccinate are discriminated against is a gross overstatement to say the least. Heck, I'd have an easier time with public schools here if I didn't vaccinate at all. That would make it super easy. So in short (too late), I'm totally comfortable with my use of the word "some."
Your incredibly negative views are probably doing nothing but scaring some people into following the CDC schedule to a tee. You know, because the alternative would be a lifetime of constant conflict, strife, and turmoil.
And I just have to point out because it's bugging me, in case you missed it, I don't face it on a personal level because I don't talk about my children's vax status with random friends and family or anyone who doesn't need to know. That was kind of the point. I'm sure some people have made mistakes by doing so and suffered the wrath of someone less than informed so it was just my little PSA for others. Add in avoiding the interwebz, and I think most folks won't see much hatred or discrimination.
Wait, I thought strep could turn into scarlet fever? My friends son just had a two week bout with strep that she said turned into scarlet fever. Then again, the kid gets antibiotics every other month for some infection. Kid is always sick. Maybe I'm getting things mixed up.
The reason you do not see people loosing a year due to rheumatic fever as often as you did before is because strep throat is not aggressively diagnosed and consistently treated with antibiotics unlike in the good olde times.
No, you're right. Untreated Group A strep infections (which are a common cause of what is called strep throat in the US and tonsillitis in Australia) can lead to Scarlet Fever. It can also lead to Rheumatic Fever. Not sure about the US but over here it is still pretty common in the indigenous population. It's almost unknown among people who have ready access to antibiotics.
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Yes we did. To be honest though, I didn't see any examples in your answer of discrimination, punitive or otherwise, that you actually experienced first hand. Given your view that it's like Nazi Germany out there, I expected more. Some of it seemed like pure speculation (how could you possibly know what all policies are at all the pediatricians offices and all the church/synagogue childcare programs in your area unless you live in an extremely tiny town and have an enormous amount of free time). Trouble, annoyance, and misunderstandings don't constitute discrimination. Casually tossing around the word "discrimination" diminishes the experience of those who suffer real injustices.
Given your own admission that your children's pediatrician is supportive plus what others have said here about their non-discriminatory experiences as non-vaxers plus what I've experienced in my own life as a selective/delayed vaxer for my children and as someone who's declined workplace flu shots without ramification, I can say with great certainty that your assertion that "ALL" daycare centers, preschools, schools, doctors, churches/synagogues, and workplaces "have policies that punitively discriminate" against those that don't vaccinate and that "ALL" people who don't vaccinate are discriminated against is a gross overstatement to say the least. Heck, I'd have an easier time with public schools here if I didn't vaccinate at all. That would make it super easy. So in short (too late), I'm totally comfortable with my use of the word "some."
Your incredibly negative views are probably doing nothing but scaring some people into following the CDC schedule to a tee. You know, because the alternative would be a lifetime of constant conflict, strife, and turmoil.
And I just have to point out because it's bugging me, in case you missed it, I don't face it on a personal level because I don't talk about my children's vax status with random friends and family or anyone who doesn't need to know. That was kind of the point. I'm sure some people have made mistakes by doing so and suffered the wrath of someone less than informed so it was just my little PSA for others. Add in avoiding the interwebz, and I think most folks won't see much hatred or discrimination.
ehh... I think taximom's ref to germany had to do with propaganda usage and not level of persecution...
I agree with you, discrimination may be too harsh, but if someone regularly experiences trouble, annoyance, misunderstandings, I can understand her feeling pretty raw about it. This also seems to be very regional.
I also agree with what you are saying, and people can avoid a lot of issues (with family, friends, etc.) by not disclosing vax status. I know some people have issues with lying... but I did have quite a few people, family and friends, ask me how DD handled her shots, during the early baby months. DD got some, so I didn't really have to *lie* per se...
Originally Posted by JollyGG
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In the examples above all of the people I know believe in vaccinations and that they have value. But they are starting to question what's in them, how they are administered, ect. This is getting to be more and more normal. Personally I believe this has less to do with non-vax ideology (whatever that is) and more to do with the fact that we now have vaccines for things like the everyday flu (not the versions that historically killed thousands), chicken pox, ect. People look at these and don't see them as necessary. They then question how these vaccines fit into their life.
When the status quo changes it makes some people very nervous. It scares them and they lash out. I guess to me it's pretty simple.
We see this kind of thing when an issue gets to the forefront of societal debate. When non-vaxers are not mainstream, when they are the religious fanatics who refuse to vax and who also don't seek or see wisdom in the medical profession, "we" shake our heads in disapproval and exasperation and get on with things. "They" are not "us". That sort of thing does not impact greater society. But when non-vaxers become part of the mainstream and the debate becomes focussed not on the "kooks" who don't vaccinate, but focussed instead on questioning the paradigm of protecting all of society by vaccinating our children, then the debate gets driven home. The issue cannot hide behind the cover of what society sees as people on the margins. Now we have to discuss vaccinations on their own terms.
(bolding mine)
You two are saying the same thing, and I think you are right in that this is probably the largest reason for increased hostility for non-vaxers.
I think mainstream med. is going to have to change tactics and address the "normal" (and increasing) number of parents with vax concerns. Here is an article addressing that, (at least in terms of sel/del vaxers):
I think exemptions and required vax for school are going to have to change, really I think exemptions would go down if they took chicken pox of the list required for school (I know this varies state to state).
I wonder if mainstream med and legislation will change and adapt to the needs of the "normal" parents with vax concerns... or if it will move towards less exemptions and possibly forced vaccination. Thoughts???
Abbygrant/Taximom,
The Slate article that started this thread was motivated by this happening in Queens:
But, Finn says, some city principals have tossed out kids for three weeks by citing a schools Chancellor’s regulation, which gives them the power to exclude unvaccinated kids when others have contracted communicable diseases like measles, mumps or chicken pox.
For instance, once a case of measles has been diagnosed, unvaccinated students must stay out of school for 18 days and could be kept out another 18 days after the last case is diagnosed, school officials say.
....
"I'd like the judge to strike down the Chancellor's regulation as unconstitutional and order these children returned to school," Finn said. "It defeats the purpose of the state exemption. You can't have someone off applying the rule when they feel like it."
I don't know specifics but it appears as though these parents feel that school officials are taking this rule above and beyond reasonable measures as a way to exclude their children from school for significant periods of time. (these parents are religious non-vaxers).
I wonder how many measles cases are really happening there or if it is mostly cp.
Not sure where this lays in the spectrum of discrimination - annoyance, but this is the incident that spurred the Slate article.
In the US, individuals can opt out of a mandatory vaccine, but insurance programs have to offer it. I tend to agree that CP is not a big deal, and most people would get through chicken pox without complications.
Chicken pox IS a huge problem for poor families, though. Kids with CP are excluded from school and day care until their pox dry up, which is typically over a week. A single parent with poor social support could easily be terminated from a job for missing that much time. The vax needs to stay on the schedule so that Medicare and insurance plans will cover it so that those who need it can get it. Medically, it's not that big a deal for most but it's significant economically.
Quote:
Yes we did. To be honest though, I didn't see any examples in your answer of discrimination, punitive or otherwise, that you actually experienced first hand. Given your view that it's like Nazi Germany out there, I expected more. Some of it seemed like pure speculation (how could you possibly know what all policies are at all the pediatricians offices and all the church/synagogue childcare programs in your area unless you live in an extremely tiny town and have an enormous amount of free time). Trouble, annoyance, and misunderstandings don't constitute discrimination. Casually tossing around the word "discrimination" diminishes the experience of those who suffer real injustices.
Given your own admission that your children's pediatrician is supportive plus what others have said here about their non-discriminatory experiences as non-vaxers plus what I've experienced in my own life as a selective/delayed vaxer for my children and as someone who's declined workplace flu shots without ramification, I can say with great certainty that your assertion that "ALL" daycare centers, preschools, schools, doctors, churches/synagogues, and workplaces "have policies that punitively discriminate" against those that don't vaccinate and that "ALL" people who don't vaccinate are discriminated against is a gross overstatement to say the least. Heck, I'd have an easier time with public schools here if I didn't vaccinate at all. That would make it super easy. So in short (too late), I'm totally comfortable with my use of the word "some."
Your incredibly negative views are probably doing nothing but scaring some people into following the CDC schedule to a tee. You know, because the alternative would be a lifetime of constant conflict, strife, and turmoil.
And I just have to point out because it's bugging me, in case you missed it, I don't face it on a personal level because I don't talk about my children's vax status with random friends and family or anyone who doesn't need to know. That was kind of the point. I'm sure some people have made mistakes by doing so and suffered the wrath of someone less than informed so it was just my little PSA for others. Add in avoiding the interwebz, and I think most folks won't see much hatred or discrimination.
You are entirely missing the point, at least partly because you are grossly misinterpreting my words, and taking them way, way WAY out of context.
I did not compare DISCRIMINATION with Nazi Germany. Go back and read my posts, carefully this time. I am perfectly willing to have a civil discussion, but not if you take anything out of context or twist it. If you want to discuss what I've said, let's discuss WHAT I'VE SAID, not something you've made up in order to make me sound like I'm over-reacting.
I don't claim to know policies of every pediatrician, church, or synagogue in my town. But I have many friends and colleagues, who all report their eperiences. I also read the local news, who interviews representatives of those institutions every time there's an outbreak of any
vaccine-preventable disease" anywhere in the country.
You're being deliberately argumentative, without substantive discussion.
I don't talk about my or my childrens' vax status either. Talking about vax status with one's little friends is not the point. Dealing with institutions who have vax policies was the point. And where I live, ALL people who do not vax are discriminated against within these institutions. There are no exceptions made for those who have had previous reactions to vaccines, or to those who delay a shot or two. That's a fact, and for you to try to twist the truth by saying, "some MAY be discriminated against" is ridiculous.
Discrimination does not equal hatred, nor did I ever say that it does.
Discrimination
Now stop twisting my words.
I don't know how this works in regards to what is on the schedule and what insurance/medicare are required to cover. Do you have more info?
In the US, individuals can opt out of a mandatory vaccine, but insurance programs have to offer it. I tend to agree that CP is not a big deal, and most people would get through chicken pox without complications.
Chicken pox IS a huge problem for poor families, though. Kids with CP are excluded from school and day care until their pox dry up, which is typically over a week. A single parent with poor social support could easily be terminated from a job for missing that much time. The vax needs to stay on the schedule so that Medicare and insurance plans will cover it so that those who need it can get it. Medically, it's not that big a deal for most but it's significant economically.
There are two states with no religious/philosophical exemptions, and looks like some states who have philo are trying to drop it (vt currently).
I wonder how things could be changed in terms of legislation to ensure that insurance companies would cover those who want/need it but not make it required for everyone. I think it is that... or increase exemption ability by allowing more philo exemptions, and bring something else for MS and WV. I wonder if partial exemptions could come into existence to address selective/delayed issues.
And that's one thing that really bothers me. That anyone would have to consider finances when considering vaccines. It's like an insurance policy that you swallow (obviously not swallowed).
In the US, individuals can opt out of a mandatory vaccine, but insurance programs have to offer it. I tend to agree that CP is not a big deal, and most people would get through chicken pox without complications.
Chicken pox IS a huge problem for poor families, though. Kids with CP are excluded from school and day care until their pox dry up, which is typically over a week. A single parent with poor social support could easily be terminated from a job for missing that much time. The vax needs to stay on the schedule so that Medicare and insurance plans will cover it so that those who need it can get it. Medically, it's not that big a deal for most but it's significant economically.
Until we get cheap daycare for sick kids, it is going to be that way.
And that's one thing that really bothers me. That anyone would have to consider finances when considering vaccines. It's like an insurance policy that you swallow (obviously not swallowed).
I don't understand this aspect of the issue. Do insurance companies/Medicare in the US NOT really want to pay for this vax? And the only reason they are is because it is on the mandated schedule? I would assume insurance would prefer to cover vax cost than drs visit/treatments, complications of vpd.
I don't understand if so, why there couldn't be other incentives/programs to cover this vax for who wanted it and had insurance unwilling to pay, (supposing it was taken off mandatory schedule to ease issues on people who do not wish to get this vax). It looks like cp vax costs about $70-90.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/cdc-vac-price-list.htm
It also bothers me that govt takes economic considerations into play in dictating medical decisions to individuals (although I do understand at least part of the logic). AND it's not as if this is done clearly across the board, as is case with contraception issues in the news at the moment, paying for contraception for who wants it is MUCH cheaper than paying for undesired pregnancy/child.
Eh daycare is expensive either way. Though I do not begrugde a daycare providers salary... especially since it's not that much and I personally couldn't handle more than my own on a daily basis...
Until we get cheap daycare for sick kids, it is going to be that way.
I think it is going to swing towards fewer exemptions. But the religious groups are such a huge part of this movement in my corner that making vaccines required would risk violating their freedom, so I think legislators here are wary of pushing too hard. But so long as there is an upswing in our state of certain diseases there will be the continued push for tighter requirements. Forced vaccination? I don't think so unless there is a pandemic of a disease being vaccinated for. But, who knows?
I think, however, that the pressure towards the makers of the vaccines will increase. The June Cleavers of the world are questioning what exactly is in those vaccines. The whole-hearted trust the people have in medicine is faltering. People are more cynical.
BTW, always be wary when comparing anything to the Holocaust or Nazi Germany. It is like opening a can of worms. I'm not saying I haven't understood, but just that comparisons like this can cause more distractions than it might be worth.
I don't understand this aspect of the issue. Do insurance companies/Medicare in the US NOT really want to pay for this vax? And the only reason they are is because it is on the mandated schedule? I would assume insurance would prefer to cover vax cost than drs visit/treatments, complications of vpd.
I don't understand if so, why there couldn't be other incentives/programs to cover this vax for who wanted it and had insurance unwilling to pay, (supposing it was taken off mandatory schedule to ease issues on people who do not wish to get this vax). It looks like cp vax costs about $70-90.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/cdc-vac-price-list.htm
It also bothers me that govt takes economic considerations into play in dictating medical decisions to individuals (although I do understand at least part of the logic). AND it's not as if this is done clearly across the board, as is case with contraception issues in the news at the moment, paying for contraception for who wants it is MUCH cheaper than paying for undesired pregnancy/child.
Unless a vaccination is mandatory, it is not covered by insurance plans. Medicaid and Medicare are administered at the state level and also do not pay for vaccines that are not mandatory - the programs are huge and the states are often short-sighted about saving money. Private insurance in the US is also often short-sighted about saving money. They deny whatever services they can to enhance their bottom line.
Eh daycare is expensive either way. Though I do not begrugde a daycare providers salary... especially since it's not that much and I personally couldn't handle more than my own on a daily basis...
I don't begrudge them their salary either. They deserve higher wages than they get. But this puts child care for sick children out of reach for many working parents, and means that they could easily lose their jobs because of a case of chicken pox.
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