Why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers? - Page 11

[GoBecGo]

The problem then is a social one - society is NOT family friendly.  It is money-friendly.  The family bears the brunt, the women and children of a family especially.  Thus it is, thus it has ever been.

The invention of formula was largely the same thing (mama had to work, boobs had to go into the factory with her, baby had to eat SOMEthing).  In fact there have been many examples really haven't there?  Even a lot of the (useful in their needful place) birth interventions women and babies suffer nowadays are for expedience and money-saving (speed things up, get mama out and the next woman in).  If you knew me (militant feminist) you'd laugh at me - apparently my scrutiny reveals that EVERYTHING is a feminist issue!

I've missed so much on this thread, trolls, scarlet fever (we just had that too, and my mother had had rheumatic fever and suffered lifelong heart damage so i got DD1 the penicillin for it, which was annoying, only the 2nd time in her life she'd had them), discrimination (i'm in the UK where people might notice, if they have to check medical history, you're unvaxed, but no-one really cares/discriminates because of it).  But i'm really enjoying reading it :D

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by stik 

Unless a vaccination is mandatory, it is not covered by insurance plans.  Medicaid and Medicare are administered at the state level and also do not pay for vaccines that are not mandatory - the programs are huge and the states are often short-sighted about saving money.  Private insurance in the US is also often short-sighted about saving money.  They deny whatever services they can to enhance their bottom line.  

Interesting. Does anyone have any links about this process/history of politics concerning adding vaccines to the schedule? Does anyone know if there was much fight about chicken pox being mandatory, especially from the insurance company side? I guess articles about HPV would be really relevant too - although there you can't argue parents lose work (and it has been mandated in certain states, correct?) This is another area where big pharma lobbying politicians/"conspiracy theories" come in, no?

I wonder how many parents, even with bad jobs, would really lose their jobs over a week off because their kid had chickenpox. I'm not doubting it - but I would think that even the most basic hourly position would be more expensive for employer to fire, find and train a new hire than let the parent time off --- but I DO realize employers can be short-sighted about that too. And I also understand that lost wage could be an issue, not just prospect of job loss. What about all the other illnesses in the world? I mean, it's not like cp was the one thing causing parents to lose working days. I agree childcare is a whole other big complicated issue. But where will it end, will we someday have 30 things on the vax schedule??

I don't know, maybe I'm off base here, but I think, assuming we believe more and more "regular" people are having issues with the vax schedule, it would be better to make some amendments to the current system. There are probably some creative options that could cover people who want and need certain vax, while still offering more options for parents to have more choice in the matter. Although I'm sure big pharma would HATE that, and probably work actively against it.

I think the most common vax ppl take issue with are Hep B, HPV, cp, flu?...

I also think there is probably a trend of people starting to take issue with those vax when they start to look at the issue and then learn more info about other vax/reactions/conspiracy theories/exemptions and the ALL OR NOTHING attitude and they become slightly more radicalized than they would have been initially. Or at least, that's kinda what happened to be personally. If the vax schedule were more or less the same as when I was a kid, I don't know as if I would have even really questioned it, especially with safer DTaP and IP. I don't think this is black and white issue, even most non-vaxers don't feel that way (i think?), I think it is a big mistake for legislatures and govt health organizations treat it as such.

GoBecGo - I agree with pretty much everything you said. 

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

I think the most common vax ppl take issue with are Hep B, HPV, cp, flu?...

Plus MMR, Hep A and a couple of others, though it's been a couple of years since I've visited this issue. My kids were fully vaxed (or nearly, no HepA, dd2 no HepB) before I reconsidered this.  My dd1 became needle shy (no doubt!) and we skipped one round of boosters to be faced with another round--7 shots in all!--to catch up.  I declined, signed the form that said the clinic did its part and did more research.  Long story short, I remember only that there were a couple of others I don't remember that had little to do with children.  That's what has my goat these days.  The vax schedule is so onerous and getting more so, and the idea is that we can treat all these diseases by vaxing kids. I've just about had enough.  

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by stik 

Unless a vaccination is mandatory, it is not covered by insurance plans.  Medicaid and Medicare are administered at the state level and also do not pay for vaccines that are not mandatory - the programs are huge and the states are often short-sighted about saving money.  Private insurance in the US is also often short-sighted about saving money.  They deny whatever services they can to enhance their bottom line.  

Are you in the US?  I am, our insurance is bottom-of-the-line--but they pay for ALL recommended vaccines, not just mandated vaccines.

What they don't pay for is thimerosal-free flu shots; they will pay for thimerosal-preserved shots or for FluMist (which does not contain thimerosal, but it's not recommended for pregnant women or for children under 3.  In addition, since it can cause a mild case of the flu, people who are hoping to avoid using their sick days for the flu tend to opt for the shot rather than the mist.).

If you have a reaction to a vaccine, and have to go back to the doctor for medical care for the reaction, you pay another copay for each doctor you see and each test that is ordered.
 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by GoBecGo 

The problem then is a social one - society is NOT family friendly.  It is money-friendly.  The family bears the brunt, the women and children of a family especially.  Thus it is, thus it has ever been.

The invention of formula was largely the same thing (mama had to work, boobs had to go into the factory with her, baby had to eat SOMEthing).  In fact there have been many examples really haven't there?  Even a lot of the (useful in their needful place) birth interventions women and babies suffer nowadays are for expedience and money-saving (speed things up, get mama out and the next woman in).  If you knew me (militant feminist) you'd laugh at me - apparently my scrutiny reveals that EVERYTHING is a feminist issue!

I've missed so much on this thread, trolls, scarlet fever (we just had that too, and my mother had had rheumatic fever and suffered lifelong heart damage so i got DD1 the penicillin for it, which was annoying, only the 2nd time in her life she'd had them), discrimination (i'm in the UK where people might notice, if they have to check medical history, you're unvaxed, but no-one really cares/discriminates because of it).  But i'm really enjoying reading it :D

I think you make a lot of good points.  

Formula wasn't originally marketed towards working mommies. THere were very, very few working mommies until the 1940's.  It was originally marketed towards well-to-do mommies (who could afford to buy the stuff), and it was marketed as a SUPERIOR, more scientific alternative to that icky, nasty breastfeeding, and resulted in healthier, stronger babies.  Breastfeeding was seen as something that peasant women had to do, because they couldn't afford to buy the vastly superior formula and bottles.

Gradually, over time, it was marketed as allowing women freedom from the awful chore of feeding their babies, as this way someone else could feed the babies. 

It wasn't until the last few decades that fathers began to be encouraged to feed their babies so that mommy could sleep.  

And somehow, it's become normal to believe that of course one should at some point wean a breast-fed baby to a bottle of formula. 

(Before anyone yells at me, I'm using blue in this post to indicate sarcasm.   )

[stik]

I am in the US.  My insurance only pays for required vaccines.  

[nia82]

Originally Posted by stik 

Unless a vaccination is mandatory, it is not covered by insurance plans.  Medicaid and Medicare are administered at the state level and also do not pay for vaccines that are not mandatory - the programs are huge and the states are often short-sighted about saving money.  Private insurance in the US is also often short-sighted about saving money.  They deny whatever services they can to enhance their bottom line.  

OUr insurance covers every single vaccine if we wanted it, all of them, whatever the FDA licences. Tricare. Base clinics push intensively to give kids all shots on the CDC schedule and even earlier (local experience).

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

Plus MMR, Hep A and a couple of others, though it's been a couple of years since I've visited this issue. My kids were fully vaxed (or nearly, no HepA, dd2 no HepB) before I reconsidered this.  My dd1 became needle shy (no doubt!) and we skipped one round of boosters to be faced with another round--7 shots in all!--to catch up.  I declined, signed the form that said the clinic did its part and did more research.  Long story short, I remember only that there were a couple of others I don't remember that had little to do with children.  That's what has my goat these days.  The vax schedule is so onerous and getting more so, and the idea is that we can treat all these diseases by vaxing kids. I've just about had enough.  

Yeah, I guess I was speaking to the "most normal" of vaccine issue people... haha. Like a lot of ppl who may be fully pro-vax or intend to vax on schedule might take issue with hep B for newborns and chicken pox... maybe flu and hpv?... 

Slightly off topic, but I was shocked to see that the VICP has had many more cases filed and awarded for the various diptheria, tetanus, pertussis vaccines than for MMR. I know old DTP was pretty bad, but there are quite a few for DTaP. I guess I have always heard more about MMR.

http://thenatureofreality.com/HRSA%20-%20National%20Vaccine%20Injury%20Compensation%20Program.pdf

[fruitfulmomma]

Slightly off topic, but I was shocked to see that the VICP has had many more cases filed and awarded for the various diptheria, tetanus, pertussis vaccines than for MMR. I know old DTP was pretty bad, but there are quite a few for DTaP. I guess I have always heard more about MMR.

http://thenatureofreality.com/HRSA%20-%20National%20Vaccine%20Injury%20Compensation%20Program.pdf

Geesh! I knew the old one was bad, but there are more reported deaths on it than all others combined and the new safer version is still the 2nd highest reported death rate.

We believe my husband was DTP-injured and was very sick as a little boy as the result of it. (He has also reacted very poorly to numerous other vaxxes.)

As far as the original topic, I just don't talk about our choices really. I've had a few er doctors ask but they never pushed the issue. We have a good family doctor that respects our decision.

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by stik 

I am in the US.  My insurance only pays for required vaccines.  

What exactly is a "required" vaccine?  Who is requiring it?  Maybe the public schools?  

[slmommy]

http://www.immunize.org/laws/

Has maps for which states require which vax for school/daycare. Interestingly, looks like in Montana, only need varicella for daycare, and in Ohio just for school. Every other state it is required for both.

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

What exactly is a "required" vaccine?  Who is requiring it?  Maybe the public schools?  

I was wondering this too. Our insurance pays for it all. But our school system does not have the same schedule as our pediatrician.

Also a question for previous poster- can't remember who said it but anybody can jump in- where is hpv vaccine mandated? That is seriously disconcerting to me, I guess I have been under a rock not to know that.

Edited by Buzzer Beater - 2/20/12 at 3:50pm

[nia82]

Buzzer: Washington DC has it mandatory for sure.

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by nia82 

Buzzer: Washington DC has it mandatory for sure.

This is for school entry? At what age?

Why does this steam my oats so bad.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

Also a question for previous poster- can't remember who said it but anybody can jump in- where is hpv vaccine mandated? That is seriously disconcerting to me, I guess I have been under a rock not to know that.

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/hpv-vaccine-state-legislation-and-statutes.aspx

Since 2006, legislators in at least 41 states and D.C. have introduced legislation to require the vaccine, fund or educate the public about the HPV Vaccine and at least 20 states have enacted legislation, including Colorado, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri,  Nevada, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Washington.

Oh and that site mentions this too:

The CDC announced that the HPV vaccine is available through the federal Vaccines for Children (VFC) program in all 50 states, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, San Antonio and Washington DC. VFC provides vaccines for children ages nine to 18 who are covered by Medicaid, Alaskan-Native or Native American children, and some underinsured or uninsured children. 

What is this Federal Vaccine for Children program???? Could kids get certain vaxes for free/cheap if insurance were to not cover certain vaxes if they were taken off the mandatory list???

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

This is for school entry? At what age?

Why does this steam my oats so bad.

 In DC looks like 2 doses of varicella to enter kindergarden as of 2008-9.

and for daycare entry.

[slmommy]

oh sorry, did you mean HPV in DC?

http://dcps.dc.gov/portal/site/DCPS/menuitem.06de50edb2b17a932c69621014f62010/?vgnextoid=0bcc22091a382210VgnVCM1000007e6f0201RCRD

Looks like 3 doses, starting in 6th grade? But I think there is also an opt-out for?

[slmommy]

Stik, there is this VFC program for uninsurred, underinsured, medicaid, or Native American/Alaskan Native:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/parents/default.htm

Quote:

The Vaccines for Children (VFC) Program offers vaccines at no cost for eligible children through VFC-enrolled doctors. Find out if your child qualifies. Vaccinating on time means healthier children, families and communities.

Diseases that are preventable by recommended childhood vaccines recommended by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) include:

• Diphtheria
• Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib)
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Human Papillomavirus (HPV)
• Influenza (flu)
• Measles
• Meningococcal
• Mumps
• Pertussis (whooping cough)
• Pneumococcal
• Polio
• Rotavirus
• Rubella (German Measles)
• Tetanus (lockjaw)
• Varicella (chickenpox)

They are free, paid by tax dollars, although states can charge a small administrative fee which varies. Providers can also choose to charge less than that or nothing.

This seems to take out the logic of having so many mandated vaxes to force insurance to pay for them!!!

I guess so many people here are concerned with getting out of vaccines, they aren't aware of this free/cheap stuff!

So now, WHY does varicella need to be mandated?

[stik]

Vax requirements for school entry are set at the state level.  Flu gets tacked on to the list a lot, but it's not actually required, and in a lot of years there isn't enough flu vaccine to go around.  

The VFC program does not provide every vaccine out there.  If I was travelling with my kids and wanted them to get a Yellow Fever vax, VFC would not help me.  Nor would my insurance.  The requirements are set by state legislatures, which is probably not the best way to do it.  For obvious budgetary reasons, programs like VFC make choices about what vaccines to provide, and the choices they make are based on what the state legislature mandates in a particular state.  In many cases, if it's not mandated it's not provided.

[slmommy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stik 

Vax requirements for school entry are set at the state level.  Flu gets tacked on to the list a lot, but it's not actually required, and in a lot of years there isn't enough flu vaccine to go around.  

The VFC program does not provide every vaccine out there.  If I was travelling with my kids and wanted them to get a Yellow Fever vax, VFC would not help me.  Nor would my insurance.  The requirements are set by state legislatures, which is probably not the best way to do it.  For obvious budgetary reasons, programs like VFC make choices about what vaccines to provide, and the choices they make are based on what the state legislature mandates in a particular state.  In many cases, if it's not mandated it's not provided.

If you were to travel with your kids to a country where yellow fever is required, you can probably afford to pay the vax out of pocket. I had to when I got yf about 8 years ago (having insurance). YF isn't really going to make parents miss work and face economic consequences, like we were arguing was the necessity for the Varicella mandate.

The requirements may vary state to state, but the VFC site says that they following the recommendations of the Advisory Committe on Immunization Practices - ACIP, part of CDC.

So I don't really understand why states could not take off chicken pox mandate, as it would still be available through this program, or other programs I'm not aware of. 

Unfortunately, I realize it's really really unlikely any vax would be taken off mandate, in any state. And it looks like exemptions are probably going to be pared down. 

I just really think there need to be more options... seems like this system as is and if continues on the trends thusfar is going to break at some point.