Why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers? - Page 12

[stik]

Probably.  Unless, I was, you know, Haitian, and returning home because of long term unemployment in the US.  But probably.  

A lot of states just mandate the ACIP recs (minus flu, which isn't always available).  The relationship between requirement and coverage is why, every time a new vaccine (for a new illness) is produced, the issue of whether it will be mandatory pops up in the news.  If it's mandated, manufacturers can predict a market for it, which means they are more likely to keep making it, since they know they can sell it.  Vaccine manufacturers do not always feel the need to keep making vaccines if they aren't making enough money off them - hence shortages that occur from time to time, like the shortage of tetanus vaccine a few years back (can't remember the year - my older dd was little).  Not that drug companies bottom line should compel you to vaccinate.  But mandatory vaccination does create market forces that reward vaccine producers.  

[slmommy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stik 

Probably.  Unless, I was, you know, Haitian, and returning home because of long term unemployment in the US.  But probably.  

I don't think using American tax dollars to vaccinate people leaving the US for YF would go over too well. Plus, I don't think many Haitians, even if unemployed in US, would see a move back to Haiti as a good move for job opportunities, in general.

[nia82]

New Jersey mandates flu vaccine for school. And since when isn't enough flu vaccine available? Here in my town and the bordering towns including Denver there is so much that every drugstore and supermarket is advertising it big time, no shortage for sure. They even try to give you coupons if you take the flu shot (Safeway: 15% off your next purchase!), billboards all over keep saying it's not too late to get your flu shot come in now!, nurses sit at a table at Wallyland asking everyone to buy a flu shot. The health department has a gazillion at low cost available still so I really do not know about a flu shot shortage. As of last season I saw plenty of articles complaining that only so and so many people got flu shots (I think it said under 60%, but don't hold me to that number).... Can you provide me with articles that mourn a shortage of flu shots? 

[stik]

Quote:

New Jersey mandates flu vaccine for school. And since when isn't enough flu vaccine available? Here in my town and the bordering towns including Denver there is so much that every drugstore and supermarket is advertising it big time, no shortage for sure. They even try to give you coupons if you take the flu shot (Safeway: 15% off your next purchase!), billboards all over keep saying it's not too late to get your flu shot come in now!, nurses sit at a table at Wallyland asking everyone to buy a flu shot. The health department has a gazillion at low cost available still so I really do not know about a flu shot shortage. As of last season I saw plenty of articles complaining that only so and so many people got flu shots (I think it said under 60%, but don't hold me to that number).... Can you provide me with articles that mourn a shortage of flu shots? 

You would have to go back all the way to 2009.  Swine flu.  I know.  Three years.  Practically prehistoric.  Here's the google search:

https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=vaccine+shortage

I can remember at least three flu vax shortages since 2001.  Plus the tetanus one.  They might be harder to recall if you don't vax, since you wouldn't have been trying to get the shots.  

Quote:

I don't think using American tax dollars to vaccinate people leaving the US for YF would go over too well. 

Yes, and once upon a time, lo those many years ago, using US tax dollars to vaccinate children against chicken pox didn't go over well either.  It's just a minor childhood disease that keeps them out of school for a week or two.  I had it when I was little, and my mom had to leave me home sick alone delirious with fever because she had to go to work or lose her job and my dad was out of town when the spots broke out and I got through it just fine, so everyone else will be fine too, right?  It'll be peachy.  Why would we spend tax dollars on that?  Now it's covered and if you don't want it you'll have to refuse it, and fill out one whole extra form when you register your children for school.  If you don't want to vax for CP, don't.  And, while you're at it, don't underestimate the value of vaccine requirements for school enrollment in getting the vaccine for people to whom it genuinely makes a difference.  

[Taximom5]

It seems to me that, periodically, the pharmaceutical industry announces a flu shot shortage as a marketing tactic.

It's a brilliant strategy, really: play on people's fear and greed. The first time they announced such a shortage, relatively few people were getting flu shots. It wasn't even routinely recommended; it was primarily given to people with underlying disorders, such as asthma. But when the shortage was announced, suddenly people were racing to their doctor, to demand "their" flu shot. I had colleagues who insisted they had never-before-diagnosed asthma, so they could get a flu shot.

With the swine flu scare, I had several overseas friends who came back to the US JUST to get the flu shot, and bring a supply of Tamiflu back with them. One friend in China frantically tried to get her former doctor in the US to send flu shots and Tamiflu.

We have always been told by the CDC that we "need" ACLU shot every year because the formulation changes.

This year, the formula did NOT change. But we were told that we needed another one anyway. Senior citizens are given a double dose, because the single dose was so ineffective. (They are not told that the risks increase, though, and we are told that we won't know until 2013 whether the double dose will be really effective.)

After these last two years, where general nterest in the flu shot has dramatically declined, one wonders whether the pharmaceutical industry is going to announce another pandemic.

[stik]

If I were in China, I'd want Tamiflu and a flu shot too, probably the Tamiflu more than the shot - the Chinese government does not do a good job tracking the early signs of bird flu outbreaks or investigating possible human-to-human transmission.  Or so I understand, though my friends tell me it's better than the DPRK.  This one girl I know who worked in the DPRK once told me that counting dead birds was strongly discouraged.  

Since the reason there are flu outbreaks every year and the same people can get it again and again is because the flu virus is constantly evolving, it makes sense that there would be a new flu vaccine every year, to try to match the strain that's causing the largest outbreak, though sometimes they miss.  Which is horrible for asthmatics, especially the ones who don't have inhalers because they haven't been properly diagnosed.  The virologists involved feel horrible when that happens - varies by the individual, obviously, but some of them take the deaths really hard.  At least, that's what I hear from my friends.  

When I take a moment to think about it, I really do have an amazing (and almost unbelievably eclectic) group of friends.  I love my friends.  I would never criticize them for wanting Tamiflu.  It should be available over-the-counter in China, but there are serious problems with fake drugs in China.  I hope your friends' doctors were sympathetic.  

[GoBecGo]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I think you make a lot of good points.  

Formula wasn't originally marketed towards working mommies. THere were very, very few working mommies until the 1940's.  It was originally marketed towards well-to-do mommies (who could afford to buy the stuff), and it was marketed as a SUPERIOR, more scientific alternative to that icky, nasty breastfeeding, and resulted in healthier, stronger babies.  Breastfeeding was seen as something that peasant women had to do, because they couldn't afford to buy the vastly superior formula and bottles.

Gradually, over time, it was marketed as allowing women freedom from the awful chore of feeding their babies, as this way someone else could feed the babies. 

It wasn't until the last few decades that fathers began to be encouraged to feed their babies so that mommy could sleep.  

And somehow, it's become normal to believe that of course one should at some point wean a breast-fed baby to a bottle of formula. 

(Before anyone yells at me, I'm using blue in this post to indicate sarcasm.   )

I'm not sure about in the US (i'm in the UK) but i can assure you that many many women were going out to work before the 1940's and using formula or "patent foods" ("specially designed" solids from birth).  I have a copy of Maternity: Letters from Working Women, put together by margaret llewelyn davies - get a hold of it if you can (i have Gabrielle Palmer too, can't remember what she has to say about it).  These are letters from women telling of their childbirthing years - how many babies, the wages at the time (husband's wage) and the events of the time.  One woman has 5 babies and all die of eating "patent foods" before she realises the solids are killing them and nurses instead, and goes on to have 4 or 5 more who live.  One woman describes how the dr "seeing he was a strong baby told me to give him the bottle".  It was published in 1915.  Many many women were miscarrying or having stillbirths due to having no good food and having to do heavy manual work throughout pregnancy to augment their husband's wages (even doing the washing was of course heavy manual work at that point), most of these women were having a baby every 15-18months for close to 2 decades.  The women of the working classes have always worked.  They often worked from or in the home (weaving, taking in sewing/ironing etc., lacemaking, or agricultural processes) before the industrial revolution, but they worked, and even in 1895 doctors were telling them to give non-breastmilk foods to their newborns.

And you're right, it was expensive.  It was *just* cheap enough that if the mother did extra work instead of nursing she could afford it and have a tiny bit of additional income left over.  Much as childcare does for many many women and families today.

[slmommy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stik 

You would have to go back all the way to 2009.  Swine flu.  I know.  Three years.  Practically prehistoric.  Here's the google search:

https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=vaccine+shortage

I can remember at least three flu vax shortages since 2001.  Plus the tetanus one.  They might be harder to recall if you don't vax, since you wouldn't have been trying to get the shots.  

Yes, and once upon a time, lo those many years ago, using US tax dollars to vaccinate children against chicken pox didn't go over well either.  It's just a minor childhood disease that keeps them out of school for a week or two.  I had it when I was little, and my mom had to leave me home sick alone delirious with fever because she had to go to work or lose her job and my dad was out of town when the spots broke out and I got through it just fine, so everyone else will be fine too, right?  It'll be peachy.  Why would we spend tax dollars on that?  Now it's covered and if you don't want it you'll have to refuse it, and fill out one whole extra form when you register your children for school.  If you don't want to vax for CP, don't.  And, while you're at it, don't underestimate the value of vaccine requirements for school enrollment in getting the vaccine for people to whom it genuinely makes a difference.  

In regards to flu vax - I do not remember, in my childhood, pharmacies advertising for flu vax, or even any push for the general public to be vaccinated, only at risk populations, I don't know if that was due to shortages or lower productions, both at times I'm sure. My parents both had professions were they received flu vax and felt lucky about that. I think this screaming from the street corners encouraging everyone to get flu vax is fairly recent?

I do realize it is probably NOT going to happen, but I do not see the need for some states to mandate chicken pox, hpv, flu (ppl are saying that is in some states?), especially states who have a significant number of non/sel/del vaxers. Well actually I think quite a few others shouldn't be mandated, but let's leave it at this list.

The VCP is a federal program, those vaccines would still be availble to children regardless of the specific list mandated by the State. Vaccines could be encouraged without being mandated.

Why? Because I think we are starting to see a situation, in some areas, where a very large portion of the population is going to school with exemptions. (Wasn't there a waldorf school in cali that had so many exemptions public health officials freaked??) People who are sel/del are being forced into a spot that should be held by true non-vaxers, and the problem with that is that it makes it appear that there are many more non-vaxers out there than in reality. If the trend continues, and more and more people do exemptions, something is going to explode.

The solution would be changing mandates or expanding exemptions (both unrealistic I realize). A lot of people feel bad using a religious exemption, when they hold more of a true philosophical exemption. But that is their only option. 2 states have no religious/philo exemptions. What are parents in MS and WV supposed to do? Try to bribe a dr for medical exemption? Vax or move? vax or homeschool? 

I also think there are a number of parents who see the mandates/look at exemption issues, start researching the issue, and become further radicalized. 

Stik, you mentioned your mom had to leave you alone when you had cp. I'm gonna guess that she probably had to do that at other times when you were sick with something else too? There are plenty of diseases with no vaccines out there.

Should we just continue to expand schedule? We could add vax for roseola, Fifths disease, Duke's disease, noravirus, add some more serotypes to prevnar, more serotypes for hpv, men B, get some vaccines for strep, Hep C, etc. etc. etc. All because someone could get these illnesses and not be able to go to work.

Nevermind that, I think, the more vax we add to the schedule, the more reactions we are going to have = more non-vaxers.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by stik 

If I were in China, I'd want Tamiflu and a flu shot too, probably the Tamiflu more than the shot - the Chinese government does not do a good job tracking the early signs of bird flu outbreaks or investigating possible human-to-human transmission.

Then you'd just be another victim of the pharmaceutical industry's marketing campaign:


http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=influenza-drug-tamiflu-ineffective-2009-01-09

Influenza drug Tamiflu ineffective against most U.S. infection


http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CanadaAM/20051221/tamiflu_drug_051221/

Tamiflu found ineffective In bird flu treatment


http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/05/22/tamiflu-documentary-conflict.html

CBC Tamiflu probe sparks drug policy review


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/may/26/beware-tamiflu/?pagination=false

"In an article dated December 2010 (but published in March 2011), Toshiharu Fujita and colleagues presented a study of 9,386 influenza patients under the age of eighteen. They found that episodes of loss of consciousness were roughly 80 percent more common among those who had taken Tamiflu compared to those who had not."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/31/tamiflu-side-effects-children

Half of children taking Tamiflu have side-effects
Nausea, insomnia and nightmares reported after taking antiviral drug for swine flu, study finds

[stik]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

Quote:

Stik, you mentioned your mom had to leave you alone when you had cp. I'm gonna guess that she probably had to do that at other times when you were sick with something else too? There are plenty of diseases with no vaccines out there.

She did not.  I led a fairly privileged childhood.  My parents were professionals.  I was rarely alone even when well.  But as it happened, CP was a perfect storm that hit when the nanny was visiting family in another state and my dad was away, and children with CP aren't allowed to come sleep on the couch in their mom's office in the hospital while she works with immunocompromised patients.  But yes, if that had been the result of my family's economic situation, there would have been several illnesses for which my mother would have faced the same issue.  Most of them don't last over a week.  This is why CP is special.  But yes, from a missed workdays standpoint, it would benefit quite a few people to expand the vaccine schedule.  

I don't know what non-vaxers do in Wisconsin.  That's a non-vaxers problem.  I am very concerned about things like the Waldorf school in Cali with a 40% vax rate where whooping cough spreads like wildfire.  But then, I'm pro-vax, and no particular fan of Steiner's either.  

[stik]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 


Then you'd just be another victim of the pharmaceutical industry's marketing campaign:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=influenza-drug-tamiflu-ineffective-2009-01-09
Influenza drug Tamiflu ineffective against most U.S. infection
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/CanadaAM/20051221/tamiflu_drug_051221/
Tamiflu found ineffective In bird flu treatment
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/05/22/tamiflu-documentary-conflict.html
CBC Tamiflu probe sparks drug policy review
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/may/26/beware-tamiflu/?pagination=false
"In an article dated December 2010 (but published in March 2011), Toshiharu Fujita and colleagues presented a study of 9,386 influenza patients under the age of eighteen. They found that episodes of loss of consciousness were roughly 80 percent more common among those who had taken Tamiflu compared to those who had not."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/31/tamiflu-side-effects-children
Half of children taking Tamiflu have side-effects
Nausea, insomnia and nightmares reported after taking antiviral drug for swine flu, study finds

And to think, I had never before considered getting health care information from the New York Times Review of Books.  This letter in response to Epstein's article sheds more light on the controversy: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/jul/14/take-your-tamiflu/

Quote:

Kaiser’s findings have been vindicated by Lipsitch’s analysis. There is no evidence in support of Epstein’s suppositions. Apologies are due.

Some of the flu outbreaks in the last few years have been frightening, especially for people living in countries where health care infrastructure is lacking, and for people whose healthcare has been inadequate in the long term.  I don't mock my friends when they're afraid.  It's not helpful or kind.  But like I said, I love my friends, every last quirky, unusual, diverse one of them.

[nia82]

I will read the other answers later, but I can assure you, in my local area once the swine flu shot came out, there was no shortage. In fact, most people didn't want it so they sat on supplies forever. I only followed the flu shot debate for the last three years, as I would never get a flu shot nor give it to my children (and as you can see by my siggy, I partially vax for things I consider reasonable). My homecountry (Germany) sat on so much Pandemrix on which they wasted precious tax dollars, they tried to sell it to poorer countries and as that didn't work they had to burn millions of doses. People were well aware that there was a swine flu shot, and it was available in huge quantities, just nobody wanted it. You might want to know that the Robert Koch institute does not recommend flu shots for everyone. Only for old people and chronically ill. So we are not as flu shot crazed as the CDC wants the Americans to be (and I don't know many Americans who actually do get flu shots). My poor MD sister was forced by her hospital to get Pandemrix (which she warned us not to get - she is not vaccine shy, but the buck stops for her at HPV, chickenpox or flu; curiously, after getting a talk why it is mandatory she tried to sell us on Pandemrix afterwards, without success I might add, I wonder what they told her that invalidated her previous research, it seemed emotional though) and was sick as a dog for a long time and unable to work (so much for cutting down sick days hahaahahha - like my husband's military unit - forced to get FLumist, each time 1/3 of the guys are so sick afterwards they have take sick leave - and a doc does examine them, it's not like they can just pretend before their sick days get approved). Last but not least, DS and I had piggy flu in June 2009 and I was sick for like 2 days, DS had a fever for a couple of hours and nursed extra, and that was it. I do realize there are some really bad flu strains out there, but piggy flu was hyped big time and most people did realize that.

I do understand the want for Tamiflu in China, my other sister in Shanghai has doses for her family just in case, but certainly refused flu vaccines for everyone. It's not like there is an avian flu vaccine anyways. 

@ Slmommy: I think the flu thing for everyone is very recent, I don't remember it from when I first moved to the US in 2006. Overall I didn't see a big push and actually had to ask to get my DT booster (I don't do the P component it was hell for me as a kid, not taking any chances, plus it wasn't really available at most docs back then). My sister still shakes her head when she sees non-doctors administer medical advice and shots. She thinks it is wrong, I do too, how can they do a proper patient history and follow-up? Shots are medicine that belongs into a doctor's office or health department. 

As for exemptions, I read an article recently that a bunch of states are considering a philo exemption now. And since I have the perspective of two countries - we do not have mandatory vaccinations in Germany at all. Your school gets no health records and couldn't care less for your vaccine records. If there is an "outbreak" of any type of disease (like chickenpox or mono), a note is sent home and parents can act upon it. 

My parents are professionals too but we had no nannies. I grew up in a small town so if you were older and sick, your parents did leave you alone. I wouldn't do it these days, but it was the norm back then. When I had mumps in 4th grade I was given my Ibuprofen, food, blanket and remote and I was stoked to be allowed to watch TV all day (we had a strict only one TV and no cable policy at home). Not my worst memory, actually my best memory of 4th grade. And my parents could have taken off all days they wanted to, because the law allows for that (no limit to sick days, no limit to sick days for sick children care).

Edited by nia82 - 2/21/12 at 7:43am

[stik]

Originally Posted by nia82 

I will read the other answers later, but I can assure you, in my local area once the swine flu shot came out, there was no shortage. In fact, most people didn't want it so they sat on supplies forever. I only followed the flu shot debate for the last three years, as I would never get a flu shot nor give it to my children (and as you can see by my siggy, I partially vax for things I consider reasonable). My homecountry (Germany) sat on so much Pandemrix on which they wasted precious tax dollars, they tried to sell it to poorer countries and as that didn't work they had to burn millions of doses. People were well aware that there was a swine flu shot, and it was available in huge quantities, just nobody wanted it. You might want to know that the Robert Koch institute does not recommend flu shots for everyone. Only for old people and chronically ill. So we are not as flu shot crazed as the CDC wants the Americans to be (and I don't know many Americans who actually do get flu shots). My poor MD sister was forced by her hospital to get Pandemrix (which she warned us not to get - she is not vaccine shy, but the buck stops for her at HPV, chickenpox or flu) and was sick as a dog for a long time and unable to work (so much for cutting down sick days hahaahahha - like my husband's military unit - forced to get FLumist, each time 1/3 of the guys are so sick afterwards they have take sick leave - and a doc does examine them, it's not like they can just pretend before their sick days get approved).

That's nice for Germany.  Countries with socialized medicine often have a different set of issues in their health care systems than countries that don't have socialized medicine, like the US.  Germany also provides child subsidies, subsidized child care, and generous parental leave policies.  It's a nice county for children and families.  The US gets shortages.  Lucky us.  

My MD mom strongly endorses vaccinations - the whole set, for everyone whose not allergic to the ingredients.  She doesn't have the time or inclination to argue on MDC, or I would offer to set up a cage match for her and your MD sister.  

[Taximom5]

Stik, the link includes a fascinating reply by Helen Epstein, including this:

"The six doctors who sign the above letter in support of Dr. Kaiser say his analysis of the Tamiflu trials was “not paid by Roche.” Why then does the acknowledgements section of Dr. Kaiser’s article state: “This study was supported by F. Hoffmann-La Roche Ltd, Basel, Switzerland”?

Moreover, Kaiser et al. also acknowledge that the statistical analysis was conducted by a Roche employee."

In response to the  doctors' assertion that, within an epidemic, "what looks like influenza is mostly influenza," she responds, "How much of the "influenza-like illness" that doctors see in their clinic is really due to the influenza virus?  In the Kaiser trial clinics, the authors claim that 70-80% were.  In my piece, I cite data from a ten-year Centers for Disease Control clinical survey that found that roughly 15 percent of influenza-like illnesses were ultimately confirmed by lab testing to be caused by influenza."

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by stik 

 I don't mock my friends when they're afraid.  It's not helpful or kind.  

I'm so glad you don't mock your friends when they're afraid.  Neither do I, so I hope you weren't implying otherwise.

[slmommy]

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/11/14/111411-news-waldorf-vaccination-1-4/

Quote:

“The majority of our students are vaccinated, they just don’t meet the state standards,” Stephanie Rynas, administrator of Waldorf School of the Peninsula, told The Daily on a tour of the campus.

Some parents delay vaccinations so that they are not clustered together, Rynas said, or they forgo ones they deem unimportant, such as the inoculation against chickenpox. The cumulative effect was that shortly after the start of the academic year, when all California schools must report to the state how many of their kindergartners have been immunized, a glaring percentage had not. 

This is what I'm talking about. What are going to be the priorities here... MMR DTaP, IP, Hib, etc?.... when parents are balking at Hep A, Hep B, CP, HPV, Flu, etc. Those kids missing CP and Hep B are going to be getting exemptions and make the situation look *way* worse from public health view. 

If the vax schedule continues to grow, I think even more parents are going to be having issues with the vax, safety, timing, etc. 

It's a problem that pharma and govt are phasing out options for parents interested in vaccinating but not to the T - less separated shots, efforts to remove exemptions, adding more vax to mandated schedule, making healthcare/school difficult for non/sel/del vaxers (sometimes).

People here were agreeing that in regards to the original topic of this post - why some pro-vaxers are becoming more vehement in their opposition to alt vaxers is because more people are becoming interested in alternative vaxing. It would behoove the pro-vax camp to start taking measures to accomodate parents a bit more, instead of making choice more inconvenient. Instead of doing opposite and threatening non-vaxers and their choices.

I wonder how many more parents will be having issues with the vax schedule someday when there are 400 antigens on the combined pedi schedule instead of *only* what? 160 now? 

I think cp, has really highlighted how commonsense in this matter has flown out the door, and govt and pharma are way more concerned with $$$ (short term) than the health of real people.

and before you becry the families who will face job loss or lost wages over chicken pox, I wonder what the real long-term economic issues are surrounding vax reactions and affected immune issues in the population. We don't know that and looks like never will.

I was reading that care for an individual with severe autism is estimated to be about 3.2 million. VICP has paid over 2 billion in compensation. I wonder what are the economic effects of adult individuals who experience reactions - like nia's anecdote about military guys and flumist. Or autoimmune issues that require lifetime of medication. 

and yes, I brought up autism... this is worth a look (taximom pointed out on another thread), a report written by a former senior scientist at pharma company:

Quote:

She discusses the increase in autism incidences corresponding with the introduction of human DNA to MMR vaccine, and suggests the two could be linked. Ratajczak also says an additional increased spike in autism occurred in 1995 when chicken pox vaccine was grown in human fetal tissue.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20049118-10391695.html

and her complete report - http://www.cogforlife.org/ratajczakstudy.pdf

She is reporting autism rates at 1/110 in US and much worse in UK. Yet we are slow to move on this issue .... but waayyy concerned about cp....

For the record, I wouldn't mind at all if there were some more health care pros around here... Especially if they were willing to engage in conversation and answer real questions.

ETA - the Ratajczak report also discusses other issues, environmental, genetics, other toxins, etc.

[SweetSilver]

One advantage, from the state's POV, for mandating vaccines is so that it becomes available to everyone who has insurance, and that means all the kids on Medicaid. 

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

One advantage, from the state's POV, for mandating vaccines is so that it becomes available to everyone who has insurance, and that means all the kids on Medicaid. 

But it looks as though the federal Vaccines for Children program would cover that with federal tax money, if a vax on ACIP list were to leave a state mandate list. I believe there are also state and local vax programs for uninsured, underinsured, and medicaid.

There are no other ways to encourage insurance companies to cover vaccines? Only by state mandates of vax required for school?

ETA - I think an issue here is that the CDC price rates for vax are cheaper than what insurance has to pay pharma companies. I had a link to these pricelists way back in the thread. 

Here it is - http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/cdc-vac-price-list.htm

CDC pays $52 for pentacel, insurance $80. For MMR II CDC - $19, insurance $52. Of course pharma wants private insurance to be paying these prices.......

[stik]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I'm so glad you don't mock your friends when they're afraid.  Neither do I, so I hope you weren't implying otherwise.

I was.  Your attitude towards their concerns about flu seems dismissive and cruel.  I'm glad you're nice to them in person.  

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

Quote:

I don't think using American tax dollars to vaccinate people leaving the US for YF would go over too well. Plus, I don't think many Haitians, even if unemployed in US, would see a move back to Haiti as a good move for job opportunities, in general.

Except that unless they qualified for TPS (Temporary Protected Status) after the earthquake, and are unemployed, if the visa status runs out they are required to return.

Also, when I went to Haiti (Oct. 2010 post earthquake) YF was not required.