slmommy, pm'ing you
- topicVaccinationstagged by System, 2/16/12
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Why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers? - Page 16post #301 of 3122/27/12 at 12:26pmpost #302 of 3122/27/12 at 12:27pmpost #303 of 3122/27/12 at 12:56pmThread Starter
I haven't gone and looked at all the links, but it seems that there were quite a few moms who knew what they were talking about in terms of scientific studies. I don't have an educational background in that area... Not saying they were accurate, I haven't checked it out yet... lots of links and good info.
I'm mostly through this thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/582268/what-are-the-biggest-more-impressive-arguments-for-pro-vaxers
Lot's of non-vaxers, to anti-vax point, and very few pro-vaxers. Some of the things here I even find a bit too much... but it is great food for thought!!post #304 of 3122/27/12 at 1:27pm
I think it is quieter overall at MDC than it used to be - most blame it on format change, but some mention over-modding (although numbers were higher during the "over-modding period" ) as well as few recent decisions around MDC such as linking to Facebook, having a questionable "expert" on the expert panel….
I seriously miss the liveliness of the old MDC, but I enjoy the more moderate members and candidness (you used to have to pick your words very carefully to avoid a warning or someone being really offended).post #305 of 3122/27/12 at 5:02pmThread Starter
So I just started reading this book - http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Epidemic-Corporate-Coercive-Government/dp/1616082720
... and a lot of the beginning is very relevant to what we were recently discussing about informed consent, mandated/forced vax, etc.
Apparently Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905) (smallpox vax) is the basis of state law being allowed to mandate vaccines - the Supreme Court held that mandates are allowable for public health reasons, but was justified only in dire circumstances which "imperiled the entire population..." The decision also warned that this not be taken overboard....
Wonder what they would think about varicella vax!post #306 of 3122/27/12 at 8:28pmpost #307 of 3124/17/12 at 7:59am
This blog post http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/2012/04/17/antidote-for-haterade/ beautifully answers the OP's original question (why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers?). It's an awesome blog, too!post #308 of 3124/17/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:Originally Posted by Taximom5
This blog post http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/2012/04/17/antidote-for-haterade/ beautifully answers the OP's original question (why so much mainstream hatred for non-vaxers?). It's an awesome blog, too!
Great article....I have to remember it when I get my 'hackles up'. I've been trying to practice more tolerance lately (in general), really making an effort, as I believe tolerance begets tolerance (again generally). I like the following from the article you posted:Quote:The more I can lower the overall fear level on both sides, the better. I take the attacks far less personally, which means that I find the back and forth less draining, and I can keep it up for longer, and get more people listening. And, when it comes down to it, that’s really what this is all about it, isn’t it?
Edited by Asiago - 4/17/12 at 1:52pmpost #309 of 3125/10/12 at 3:48pm
On the contrary, I think everything you have to say makes perfect sense and I thank you for a well thought-out post. I used the word "vilify" just the other day when my cousin and several of her friends went on and on about all the non-vaxers and how they're killing innocent babies by letting their filthy children out in the world and they shouldn't be allowed to send them to school, etc etc etc. It made me feel so sick. This attitude is widespread, it seems and it terrifies me that I may not have a choice about something so important. These women making these comments could not understand that it was not OK to say they had the right to dictate another person's healthcare choices. And they kept saying "There's no link between autism and vaccines" before I even mentioned that as a possible reason one might choose not to vax. Which made me even more angry. That they were being so insulting of the experience of so many families just so they could stay insulated in their ignorance. I think the vast majority of folks just don't want to think or to have to face the truth. It's so much "easier" to just do what your ped tells you and not have to take responsibility for doing any research or understanding the scientific method or economics. I don't mind if you want to be ignorant but, please, could you just keep it to yourself!?
This is somewhat unrelated and might *actually* be offensive but I think it's so funny. I read something a friend posted the other day that said "Religion is like a penis" but for the sake of this discussion, let's say "Opinion about vaccinating is like a penis" "It's fine if you have one. It's fine if you're proud of it. But please, don't whip it out and start throwing it around in public. And please, don't try to shove it down my kids' throat!" OK, sorry for being crass but that's exactly how I feel about the way people go on and on insulting those of us who disagree with their herd choices.post #310 of 3125/13/12 at 9:44amQuote:Originally Posted by littlest birds
Vaccine reactions are not rare. Even the confirmed ones are not rare, and I am certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that most reactions are never documented and confirmed.
Manipulation of parental fears as part of vax campaign is the norm. I find it offensive that I cannot trust the sources of information because they are pretty much in the pocket of pharma-for-profit interests and out to use information as a tool for their interests. I hate the tactics that are used to attempt to manipulate me and my friends. The big questions about risk aren't being asked and studied, because the government and medical establishment is heavily biased to be pro-vaccine and every other question they consider starts with that spoken or unspoken given. First assumptions: Vaccines are great and a cornerstone of good health. You aren't even allowed to be taken seriously as a professional studying vaccines if you don't accept that assumption. Unbiased information is unavailable because it's essentially a condition for membership.
The truth is that vaccines are a questionable approach to health care with some major successes as well as some major weaknesses and contraindications. Vaccines have lots of side effects. Death is one of them. Brain damage is another. These are facts. Debating the numbers for occurrence of each of these is questionable because the methods of collecting data are flawed. However, we KNOW that they occur sometimes, we simply can't be sure how often. Some of the side effects look minor (fevers, swelling, seizures) but these symptoms can indicate invisible damage is occurring to the brain or immune system in many cases. Such side effects are much more scary because we can't get any numbers at all that are trustworthy. However, the minor side effects are not rare at all. It's pretty well documented that "minor" reactions are common. We have no way of knowing their effects are all temporary. We have no way to tell how vaccinations do or do not effect the rampant autoimmune and allergic health problems in our population, but there is reason enough to suspect connections that our scientific community ought to be pouring lots of effort into finding out. The token effort to rule out any connection to autism is a joke, and it is appallingly unscientific that the media is spreading what little has been studied as proof that there is no connection. It's bad science to state that not finding one particular connection means that all possible connections have been disproven. It is so sad to me that we cannot trust our scientists and health care organizations to place health and safety first--even those who aren't in the pockets of big-business are stuck using the studies and data provided by those who are and stuck with the absence of studies in broad areas because studies in those areas aren't profitable and don't get the funding.
Anyone who really wants to weigh this out is stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to make an informed decision about this. The information is appallingly limited and biased, so we have to make do with what we get and extrapolate from what we know if we don't want to just follow the directives we receive with little question. I fall back on what I know of nature and its resilience. I fall back on what I know about the typical "slippery slope" of side effects that lead to more interventions that lead to more side effects that come from so many of our "cleverest" interventions in human bodies. Meddling with the immune system of newborns is a very scary intervention. It's quite a propaganda victory that we aren't all a lot more scared of that. Since I can't trust the information I can access, I have to fall back on the fact that I trust the immune system God gave me a whole lot more than I trust the humans who are entangled in this for-profit health care system. It's not that that my natural immune system is never ever ever going to allow something bad to happen, but I sure don't see that great health and vitality is coming from that health care system. Its methods are consistently flawed and frightening in many other health matters besides vaccination--what would make vax more trustworthy than some of these other interventions? Increasing investment in pharmaceuticals (remember vaxes are really just a pharmaceutical product we are being sold) sure as heck does not make me feel that bad health outcomes are less likely for me. Americans just aren't getting healthier from trusting what that system provides, and we aren't even on the path to begin to fix it. I think the more health intervention I accept from "Big Medicine" the more risks I am taking that I will be the victim of the next severe side effect that we didn't see coming. I notice so many people in deteriorating or vulnerable health with no known cause. I suspect a fair bit of it is side effects that we just haven't tracked down yet, because it really doesn't seem natural to me.
Healthy immune systems don't come from shots. Isolated immunity to some single diseases might come from shots, but something widespread in modern health is causing immune systems to fall apart, and vaxes are a top suspects for possible causes. I think vaxes are a major risk to take for anyone who is concerned to have overall good health. It's really hard to close one's eyes to that once you've glimpsed the rest of the story. Once you see that there really are two sides to this, you can't forget it and you can never feel 100% sure that you are doing the right thing again.
For anyone who comes here 100% knowing that vaxing is "right" I know that you have never seen that the other point of view. Once you can see, you wouldn't judge because you would know that there are two sides. You would know that the questions are quite serious even though they are hard to answer. You would know that either action we take might be a mistake. If you can't see that there is any legitimacy to the other point of view, I observe that your comments will always be harshly judgmental. I cannot say whether your choice to vax is right or wrong, but I know that taking away my right to decide what goes in my body is a deep and serious violation. I also know that the widespread propaganda that tricks me into making a particular decision is an equally serious violation. The widespread propaganda that says mainstream folks should fear and judge non-vaxers is also a violation that turns us against each other when we should in fact be on the same side--the side that promotes the health of our children. Vaccination masquerades as a simple solution, but it is not simple. Nonvaxers deserve respect for what we face and choose as well, instead of being treated as though we must be ignorant and evil and dangerous to you. It isn't that simple. Don't be manipulated into thinking it is.
::standing ovation::post #311 of 3125/13/12 at 12:32pmThat is the most awesome post I've seen on here in awhile. I wish I had a flyer with that all printed on it the next time someone ignorantly says something horrible about non vaxxers. I could just give it and walk away instead of dwelling and trying to reason with someone that has most likely never read any research on the subject of vaccination and is just spouting off media fuled rhetoric.post #312 of 3125/13/12 at 9:15pmQuote:Originally Posted by nukuspot
That is the most awesome post I've seen on here in awhile. I wish I had a flyer with that all printed on it the next time someone ignorantly says something horrible about non vaxxers. I could just give it and walk away instead of dwelling and trying to reason with someone that has most likely never read any research on the subject of vaccination and is just spouting off media fuled rhetoric.
Print it out!!
I'm going to do so, and leave copies at work. I may even quietly leave a stack in the pediatrician's waiting room!
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