Call out to anyone pro-vaxxer who has brought up "first world, privileged women" lately…...

[purslaine]

Care to explain your logic?

In the last month or so I notice people throwing out the words "first world, privileged" in discussions…as an argument in favour of vaxxing.

I am supposed to vax my kids because people in Africa would give their right arm for vaxxes?  How is vaccinating my privileged snowflakes going to help someone from a disadvantaged country?  It is not.

Edited by purslaine - 2/17/12 at 10:13am

[Imakcerka]

[AbbyGrant]

It's nothing I've said or argued, but I think I have somewhat of a handle on the argument.  It's not a new one.  

I think the idea is that not vaccinating is something that only those privileged enough to live in certain parts of the world get to decide because they live in a place where certain diseases have completely or mostly disappeared at least in part due to vaccines. Of course there's improved sanitation, diet, and medical care that come into play as well.  

I don't think the point of it is to convince people in economically developed countries to vaccinate to save people in poor areas of Africa but perhaps to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing.  

I've never heard the "white" part of the argument.  Maybe that comes from the demographic that seems to be most attracted to not vaccinating.  

Feel free to agree or disagree.  I'm not here to debate just to offer what I've gathered about the idea.  

Edited by AbbyGrant - 2/17/12 at 9:42am

[purslaine]

Thanks for you thoughts, Abbey.

I know the choice not to vax is somewhat one of privilege  (or at least the choice to not vax and know that diseases are both unlikely and treatable) …I am just not sure why people feel the need to remind me/us?  As in…what is the point?….I know I am privileged

Do you think it is something they just say in the heat of battle  (and I do not mean to phrase this in a vaxxer versus non vaxxer battle….I am sure non vaxxers say some OT things in the heat of discussion as well!:)

Edited to add:  I am going to remove the "white" part.  I found two quotes (from the last week) where non vaxxers were called in a very OT way privileged women from first world countries - but no mention of race. 

Edited by purslaine - 2/17/12 at 10:12am

[ma2two]

I think it's kind of like, "Clean your plate because there are starving kids in China."

[Bokonon]

I was just talking to my mom (born in the mid-40s) about vaccines on the phone today.

I explained my experiences with vaccinating my children, which I had already told her about little by little, and she said that it sounded ridiculous to her that there are so many more shots on the schedule today.

She said that there was a child in her school who died of polio, and then the inoculations started.  She also reminded me that my grandmother had polio in her 30s and recovered without issue.  I told her about the quote from Jonas Salk, about how he thought the polio vaccine was responsible for more cases of polio than it prevented.  I mentioned that the US currently uses the inactive polio vaccine, and sends the live polio vaccine to developing nations.

She said, and I quote, "Well, better them than us, I guess."  

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

I was just talking to my mom (born in the mid-40s) about vaccines on the phone today.

I explained my experiences with vaccinating my children, which I had already told her about little by little, and she said that it sounded ridiculous to her that there are so many more shots on the schedule today.

She said that there was a child in her school who died of polio, and then the inoculations started.  She also reminded me that my grandmother had polio in her 30s and recovered without issue.  I told her about the quote from Jonas Salk, about how he thought the polio vaccine was responsible for more cases of polio than it prevented.  I mentioned that the US currently uses the inactive polio vaccine, and sends the live polio vaccine to developing nations.

She said, and I quote, "Well, better them than us, I guess."  

For the record, she also called me a "good mommy" for doing research and trying to figure out what was best for our family.  She's biased of course, but she trusts that my husband and I are intelligent and logical, love our children, and will make the decisions we feel are best for our children's health.  She may be racist and elitist, but unlike many, she respects my decisions and how I have arrived at them.

[katelove]

Honestly, I think it is just a way to have a dig at someone you don't agree with. There is another thread active on MDC at the moment in which women who have any negative emotions surrounding their birth experience are called privileged westerners (or similar, can't remember the exact phrasing) as well.

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by katelove 

There is another thread active on MDC at the moment in which women who have any negative emotions surrounding their birth experience are called privileged westerners (or similar, can't remember the exact phrasing) as well.

Sometimes it's good to keep things in perspective.  I find it helpful to remind myself when I'm fretting over something that some people have actual problems, and my life is pretty good relatively speaking.  And I think some of the things middle class "first world" women worry over are pretty trivial and sometimes their worries are sort of self-inflicted and come from unrealistic expectations of life and what they deserve.  

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by katelove 

Honestly, I think it is just a way to have a dig at someone you don't agree with. There is another thread active on MDC at the moment in which women who have any negative emotions surrounding their birth experience are called privileged westerners (or similar, can't remember the exact phrasing) as well.

OMG.  Glad I have not read it - my blood pressure would rise.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

Sometimes it's good to keep things in perspective.  I find it helpful to remind myself when I'm fretting over something that some people have actual problems, and my life is pretty good relatively speaking.  And I think some of the things middle class "first world" women worry over are pretty trivial and sometimes their worries are sort of self-inflicted and come from unrealistic expectations of life and what they deserve.  

I get that sometimes a little perspective can be good. But I dont think these are petty issues women are complaining about - they are issues that affect health, physical and emotional of individuals and families. We aren't complaining about a certain color of nail polish being unavailable... I don't find choices about medical procedures to be so trivial (in vax and birthing as katelove mentioned). 

I think it is just a way to shame someone into status quo because there exist situations worse than the American status quo in the world.

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 


OMG.  Glad I have not read it - my blood pressure would rise.

If we're talking about the same thread, it was about letting go of the idea of the "perfect birth" not a support thread for mothers who are suffering birth trauma.  In the context of that thread, I don't think the comment was out of place. 

ETA - and the comment did not read like it reads here.  
 

Originally Posted by slmommy 

I think it is just a way to shame someone into status quo because there exist situations worse than the American status quo in the world.

I can see how it might be used that way, but I think there's some merit to the idea in particular situations in the vaccine debate, and I don't think it means accepting the status quo.  

Edited by AbbyGrant - 2/18/12 at 8:56am

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

I can see how it might be used that way, but I think there's some merit to the idea in particular situations in the vaccine debate, and I don't think it means accepting the status quo.  

Could you elaborate on what you mean by the bolded?  I am not sure what you mean....
 

[slmommy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbbyGrant 

I can see how it might be used that way, but I think there's some merit to the idea in particular situations in the vaccine debate, and I don't think it means accepting the status quo.  

I guess if so, it needs to be done tactfully and not used in spite, (to imply someone is out of touch with reality or selfish). What situations do you think it would be appropriate? I can't really see past how it would not imply that the person should stop whining and be happy for how the system is, since it could be worse.

I'm not sure exactly about the thread referring to birth, but I have noticed this in other places, particularly on Navel Gazing MW, I'm not really sure what happened to her.

http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespace.com/navelgazing-midwife-blog/2012/1/15/extract-this.html

http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespace.com/navelgazing-midwife-blog/2011/1/18/the-irony-of-privilege.html

I have a problem with someone telling a woman (or anyone really), how she should feel about her exeriences, especially large life changing events and medical procedures. I know a lot of this is in reaction towards issues in the NCB community, and a backlash so to speak. I understand the reasons, I just think it is going too far the other way. Sorry, off topic...

[AbbyGrant]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Could you elaborate on what you mean by the bolded?  

Oh I don't know.  I was just pondering.  Perhaps it could be mentioned in regard to someone appearing to be arrogant, judgmental, and/or ignorant.  People, on all sides of an issue course, can be all of those things sometimes, and I don't think there is anything wrong with reminding people.  I'm not going to come up with an example because that will just lead to more debate which I don't have the time or energy for.  I did not see the comments that inspired this thread.

Originally Posted by slmommy 

Quote:

I have a problem with someone telling a woman (or anyone really), how she should feel about her exeriences, especially large life changing events and medical procedures. I know a lot of this is in reaction towards issues in the NCB community, and a backlash so to speak. I understand the reasons, I just think it is going too far the other way. Sorry, off topic...

In the thread about letting go of the perfect birth, the comment was not telling anyone else how to feel.  It was in reference to someone's own feelings on the issue. But I agree that people can be dismissive sometimes which is not cool. 

[Amy M]

This reminded me of my dad telling me to eat my peas because kids were starving in Africa.  When I asked how me eating peas would help them I got smacked and told to eat.  End of discussion.  Similar to the response when I question some people about vaxxes, that is the only similarity I can find.    Interesting to hear what others think though.

[MountainMamaGC]

There are people in 3rd world countries that dont trust the vaccines are healthy either.

[member234098]

.

Edited by member234098 - 5/27/12 at 9:09am

[Erin77]

"...to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing. " -PP

I think it is brought up to remind non-vaccinators that their choice would not be even moderately safely possible without the choice of many others to vaccinate. 

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Erin77 

"...to remind people this choice is a great privilege and that everyone in the world does not have the same luxury and that vaccinations can be a good thing. " -PP

I think it is brought up to remind non-vaccinators that their choice would not be even moderately safely possible without the choice of many others to vaccinate. 

That is your opinion.  If you look at the historical data of disease decline, the declines happened sharply and significantly before the vaccines for those diseases were ever introduced.