Upper & Upper Middle-Class Parents - Essential Knowledge? - Page 2

[Imakcerka]

Well then... start learning as many languages as you can.  You never want to feel out of place...  And recently I went to lunch with the President of our company, the man makes more than all of us on mothering combined and he had no problem asking the waitress what was on the menu.  It was in Hebrew... there was an English version but I think he really enjoyed talking to the people there... always learning. 

By the way that's not the norm for us, he just chose to do his town hall in our City and wanted all of us to have a meal together.
 

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

Wow. I have no idea why you seem so angry and offended.

As I said, I grew up in a working-class family and neighborhood. I am comfortable there. My husband grew up in an upper middle-class family, and while he's wonderfully open to friends from all walks of life, there are parts of that working-class world that are incredibly foreign to him. He has sometimes felt left out because he didn't get whatever reference or cultural norm that the other men were discussing. Those situations are what I'm considering when I think about my children's lives. 

I think that you took my question to mean that one should go only to high-end places, but I'm thinking more of work-related situations. Yes, knowing the right wine to order does matter in some professions. It goes beyond food, though. I'm expected to understand references to classic literature and be able to discuss philosophers. I often have questions about what's acceptable and expected in certain groups.

I would not ask for someone to translate a menu because that just doesn't mesh with my style. That's not the way to learn for me - a single word, yes, but not an entire menu. I would never ask for someone to translate for me when I'm out with a client, for example. In the instance I mentioned, I was with an older person in my profession, and she would have been mortified if I'd asked for a translation. My answer after that situation was to pick up pocket tourist guides in a range of languages and learn the basics. That doesn't mean it's the only or best way to handle the situation, but it's how I opted to do it. I will make sure that my kids know how to order and ask for the bathroom and do those basics in a number of common languages. 

[Dar]

I think you're talking about what Bourdieu termed "cultural capital". Wikipedia has a pretty good article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_capital

Basically, it's about knowing and doing the things that give you status - in this case, status in upper-middle and upper class society. Most people probably don't even realize they're doing these things - standing up straight, having good table manners, dressing in a certain way, speaking in a certain way and at a certain volume... and there is content-stuff too, like being able to converse about certain topics (art, theatre, politics) knowledgeably, or knowing what to bring when you're invited to a dinner party.

I guess you can teach some of that stuff, but I think it's hard if you don't live it. I was raised upper middle class and even though my daughter and I have always been poor, she has the cultural capital to fit in upper middle class US society... the knowledge, the manners, the look. I transmitted that to her mostly without thinking, because it felt "right" to me.

Asking about something on the menu is perfectly okay, in my book. The key would be being able to look directly at the waiter, asking with confidence and grace, and then thanking him. A better strategy would probably be to ask the waiter to recommend something, and say a few words about your preferences. That's what a good waiter wants to do...

[Alenushka]

Cultural capital does not  always depend on money.

I grew up very poor just like 99% of population in Soviet Union but my education was such that by age 14 I attended more opera, theater, ballet etc than many upper middle class American will in their entire life. I can talk about many topics .

Because of my husbands work, my kids had amazing access to art in every imaginable way.

It is not always the money. Sometime it is just luck.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 


I would also teach them that ALL members of our society have value. No matter what their job is. I had a professor ask on a test what the cleaning ladies name was - if you didn't know you lost a point. The professor was adamant that she was just as important as any of the material on the test (sociology class), and that we as a class needed to value those that kept our learning environment clean.
 

One night over beers the VP and directors of my DH's company got to talking about who at the company they respected the most. One of VP said the woman who did the floors. He felt she had the most boring, repetitious job in the entire place, and he was impressed that she always had a smile on her face and said hi to everyone. He respected her work ethic.

(most of the men I know who earn over 100K prefer beer to wine)

I think that some of the things the OPer is concerned about won't ever be an issue for her kids. If you are living a certain life style, then you learn the little things that go along with it without ever trying.

There are little things that I didn't grow up with that I wanted my kids to be comfortable with. But now they aren't a big deal to my children at all. Going to a nice salon for example -- my mother always took me to the beauty college. The first time I went to a nice salon I felt like I was walking into a private club and might be asked to leave! But it isn't a big deal to my kids at all. They'd rather just let their hair grow forever and then die it with stuff from Walgreens.

One of my friends grew up poor in New Jersey near New York, and ended up married to a surgeon. She once said that what she really wanted for her DD was for her to have the self confidence that if she were in New York and needed to pee, she would just go into a nice hotel and use the restroom. The restrooms at the nice hotels were for her the same way nice salons were for me -- some place she felt she had no right to be.

[nina_yyc]

I think with income it's easier to support your children in extracurriculars and you have more educational choices available to you.  I would like my kids to read music and play an instrument and to pursue a sport seriously, depending on their interests of course.  If we didn't have any extra money I would still have the same priorities but I imagine it would be harder to see them through.  My parents had a little extra and paid for years of figure skating lessons, ice time, driving to competitions, etc.  They didn't teach me anything about wine pairings though - guess I'm uncultured ;-)

[Learning_Mum]

Well, I'm poor, so I don't know if you want to hear my answer but I would say:

- Table manners

- How to be polite and kind to everyone, even if they don't have money

- Less is more. It's terribly gauche to be flashy, that's only for the nouveau riche.

- To understand that not everyone knows everything and it's OK to ask

Other things would be for you to travel. Take them to Europe to experience the culture. Take them to shows and ballets. Take them skiing and to Fiji. Basically show them the world so they can experience different cultures and ways of life. To me that is the most important thing.

Also, I grew up upper middle class and I've never discussed philosophy with anyone.

[MamaMunchkin]

This seems like an issue of fitting in - whether it's based on wealth, or lack of it, or some other parameters. 

The most helpful thing is to guide your DC to be a confident and resilient person - it'll help them navigate through whatever comes their way.

[Learning_Mum]

I will say that one thing this thread has reminded me is that I need to do this stuff with my boys. Growing up we always had the table set with a table cloth, the right cutlery, linen napkins. I've got to work on those things.

[Imakcerka]

If you don't do it now, you probably didn't think it was that important to begin with. 
 

Originally Posted by Learning_Mum 

I will say that one thing this thread has reminded me is that I need to do this stuff with my boys. Growing up we always had the table set with a table cloth, the right cutlery, linen napkins. I've got to work on those things.

[Learning_Mum]

Actually the most important thing to me would be grammar and elocution.

[Learning_Mum]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

If you don't do it now, you probably didn't think it was that important to begin with. 
 

The thing is though that I actually do appreciate that my Mum did that because I do feel comfortable dining out. It's normal to me, but not to my boys. Well, except when they go to Grandma and Grandads!

[Maren78]

This thread is just... I don't know, sad? And I'm not referring to the mammas that replied to the OP.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

If you don't do it now, you probably didn't think it was that important to begin with. 
 

I don't know -- I think it's difficult to squeeze everything into a month that I value doing, but sometimes something brings it to mind so it gets bumped up the list.

[LynnS6]

Essential skills?

Compassion for all people.

How to be polite to everyone when you first meet them. (If they make you uncomfortable later, you don't have to keep being polite).

How to value the gifts that you have.

How to understand that other people may have gifts or intelligences that you can't see.

How to understand that just because someone doesn't know something that you do, it doesn't make them less of a person. (We had a breakthrough with dd this weekend, where she finally recognized that even though most of her class didn't read as well as she does (and some are indeed, struggling readers), she likes them.)

How to ask for help when you need it.

How to give back to your community.

That you're not entitled to anything.

These skills, you'll notice, are not income specific. But, in my experience, these are often skills I find weak in teens/young adults who grew up in higher income homes. The sense of entitlement is horrific as far as I'm concerned. I have a friend who lives 2 blocks from the high school. Her daughter "needs" a car to drive to school every day, because some days she has dance practice after school at an offsite location. Needs?! I love my friend, but she's completely blind when it comes to her daughter. Why? Because this friend grew up in an upper middle class home with all the trappings, and couldn't imagine denying her daughter the same things. To her, the material things (paying for extra dance practices, donating extra money to the dance team even when they can ill afford it, getting the extra car, paying for her daughter's education) are essential. Her daughter unfortunately, has also learned that these things are "must haves".

To me, very little is essential. Most of the skills that you need to succeed in an upper income job or social situation can be learned. I'm not so sure about the understanding that all people have worth, especially those who weren't born into the 'system'.

As others have said, my kids are being raised in an environment where they will end up with considerable cultural capital. They will understand the education system inside and out. (Ds is 10, he already knows that to fulfill  his current dream of being a teacher, he needs 4 years of college and then graduate school. He knows that if he wants to be a lawyer, he'll have to go to law school after college. Many of his classmates have no clue because of their family backgrounds.) My kids will know it's OK to question teachers, doctors and other authority figures (and how to do so politely, but firmly).  They will learn how to order a meal in a restaurant, ask someone politely for directions, introduce themselves to someone at a party. They'll know the basics of how to travel, rent a car and stay in a hotel room. They'll learn to tip the waitstaff and the hotel maids. They'll learn how to do international travel because dh and I value travel. They'll learn a foreign language because it's important to me and through our community and our travel, they'll see the value. They'll know how to swim, cross-country ski and bike because those are things we like to do as a family. Some of these things are things they'd learn because they're part of basic manners. Some, like skiing or traveling, are things they wouldn't learn if we didn't have a decent income.

But none of these things are essential to living or being comfortable with who you are. Compassion is.

[MadTown16]

I grew up in a very wealthy family, and from the perspective of a now grown child of the 1%, I advise rethinking your priorities.  The valuable lessons that my parents taught me revolved around financial responsibility--Saving, charitable giving, the importance of work, and responsible use of money.  Most importantly, they taught me-through words and example- that wealth was a blessing to be thankful for.  That it should be used carefully and not needlesslt flaunted.  That it didn't make me better than anyone else.  

The specific examples you give-learning languages, polite manners, and understanding wine-do not seem like priorities that are strictly upper class.  Essentially, you value certain knowledge and hope your children do too.  That's a pretty universal parenting situation.  I would encourage you to approach learning those things like any other optional hobby, not as a checklist of things that they must learn because they're "upper class".  It will be ok if they don't know or care about those things as long as you teach them to pursue their interests/dreams and encourage them to educate themselves so they will be successful in what THEY want to do.  

For what it's worth, I was never specifically taught wealthy person skills-and I haven't once felt at a disadvantage.  My husband grew up in a very poor family and he has delt with new money-related situations with ease, despite his lack of experience.  

[meemee]

Originally Posted by Dar 

Basically, it's about knowing and doing the things that give you status - in this case, status in upper-middle and upper class society. Most people probably don't even realize they're doing these things - standing up straight, having good table manners, dressing in a certain way, speaking in a certain way and at a certain volume... and there is content-stuff too, like being able to converse about certain topics (art, theatre, politics) knowledgeably, or knowing what to bring when you're invited to a dinner party.

I guess you can teach some of that stuff, but I think it's hard if you don't live it. I was raised upper middle class and even though my daughter and I have always been poor, she has the cultural capital to fit in upper middle class US society... the knowledge, the manners, the look. I transmitted that to her mostly without thinking, because it felt "right" to me.

Asking about something on the menu is perfectly okay, in my book. The key would be being able to look directly at the waiter, asking with confidence and grace, and then thanking him. A better strategy would probably be to ask the waiter to recommend something, and say a few words about your preferences. That's what a good waiter wants to do...

The above is my experience too.

trying to teach children something else without experiencing it is not that easy.

for instance i never thought to ask my friends if they wanted to do laundry at my place before i became poor myself. and experienced it. i know differently now. 

[rubidoux]

I was raised by a single mother in very difficult financial circumstances and ended up dropping out of high school and leaving home at 15.  I met my husband a few years later when I was waiting tables and he was a sophomore at Harvard.  Both of us ended up going to top ten law schools and rubbing elbows with people with lots of money.  I didn't know *anything* about rich people stuff, but I can't think of a single time that that has made things uncomfortable for me.  I've had tons of fairly over-the-top insanely yummy unbelievably expensive dinners, mostly in connection with my dh's career, with federal circuit court judges and the people they hang out with, but it has never been a problem that I don't know anything about wine (yuck!) or which fork I'm supposed to be using or any rules about how I'm supposed to behave.  When in doubt, you can kind of hang back and see what other people are doing, but it has never been a big deal.  

I certainly have never felt like I was supposed to be able to converse fluently about a topic I knew nothing about and nobody has ever expected that I'd be able to read some random language.  As for the woman that would have been appalled if she realized you didn't speak Italian, I almost don't believe you  --  that just seems crazy unless there's more, like are you a linguist or an opera singer or something?  Are you sure you didn't read that wrong?  I wonder if you're so worried about sticking out that you're seriously overcompensating.  I don't think anyone would ever say that I put on aires (sp?  see -- that's my background peaking through, lol).  I think it's pretty obvious that I had a different sort of upbringing than my colleagues did, but, if anything, people appreciate that and find it interesting.  

As for what skills my kids would need if they too end up finding themselves surrounded by those who are "well bred", I would say nothing special, nothing that I wouldn't want them to have just for life.  As others have said, please and thank you go a long way, as do being interesting and interested in others.  

My son does go to a school where people have "portfolios" (I always imagine that's like a folder where you've got pictures of all of your investments?  --  sounds insanely pretentious!) and swim with dolphins and such.  I doubt we'll ever have the money for dolphin friends or skiing.  But I can't imagine that will be a big hardship for him.  

I hadn't really thought about this before, but my husband, who comes from a long line of Harvard-types, is not anywhere near as comfortable with his peeps as I am.  And he does know the rules.  I think I kind of see myself as not of it, but I can enjoy visiting with them, and they do have yummy food at their parties.  I think I would be a little sad if my kids became part of that world, but maybe not  --  maybe it would have its perks and they'd still be who they are.  But the idea of grooming them specifically for hanging out with rich people would go against my grain.

[Imakcerka]

Where'd the OP go?  I suppose the thread did not go in the direction she was hoping.  Sorry OP.

[crunchy_mommy]

I just don't get this thread at all... and that you directed your question to only families with higher incomes bothers me. People with lower incomes can still have an opinion on this matter, and people with lower incomes can also raise kids who end up upper-class. Regardless, I think a focus on class-related skills & knowledge is what encourages elitism & snobbery. I'm sorry, I hope that's not horrible to say, but it's what I feel. Maybe it's because I don't have a lot of money and never have... but I can't imagine having a 6-figure income & wasting my time teaching my kids wine pairings and how to discuss stuffy boring topics. Why not prepare them with a broader knowledge base that will apply to any 'class' they happen to fall into? Why not teach them that people who care if you can't order from a French menu probably aren't people whose opinions are worth your consideration? Why not teach them that 'class' doesn't matter as much as some rich people seem to think it does, and that we are all valuable and worthy of respect no matter how little money we make?

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Where'd the OP go?  I suppose the thread did not go in the direction she was hoping.  Sorry OP.

I just thought I would say I've been enjoying your perspective in this thread.