- 1,592 Posts. Joined 5/2007
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September 2012 Due Date Club
Nonsense! - Page 2
Mole, I totally know what you are talking about, am very respectful of the topic, and don't need to learn anything new on this particular subject that I don't already know. I just meant that we are all in agreement of the topic of this thread, and don't need a reminder to be respectful of the difference between "sex" and "gender" right now and here, because it is not at all what is being discussed. To give you an example of another thread with the "potential" to become touchy if pointed out in a similar manner- the (extensive) thread about genetic testing (a recent topic, much visited here) could have had an "explosive potential"; I did not fail to notice the common use of "we won't terminate" as an explanation to why a lot of ladies here won't test- while I could have easily gotten "finger pointy" about it, because I personally see a lot of other reasons for genetic tests (even those with relatively high "false positives") other than whether one would terminate or not, I didn't find it necessary to do so (in my personal case- I am 40, Down's risk is A LOT higher than for a 30 year-old, not to mention a woman in her 20's, plus some other reasons), even though the term "terminate" has a huge potential to be a trigger, just like "gender". I know no one here, hormones and all, intended to be judgmental, so I dropped it.
Just wanted to explain.
- 456 Posts. Joined 1/2012
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I haven't been participating in this thread, but if I could just share an observation.. I think it's easy for a lot of us to use these terms interchangeably, without a second thought and also without any malice whatsoever- and that this is largely because many or most of us just aren't used to having to think about it on a day-to-day basis. I see that in at least one case someone hadn't been exposed to this idea before. I also think, from the posts I've read over the past couple of months, that we're by and large a thoughtful and caring group. That being the case, I'm hopeful that we can step back from a delivery that may have caught people off guard to recognize that a member of the group has expressed that this really is an important distinction for some (i.e. not just a question of semantics) and respond accordingly. If it's all the same to most people anyway, it couldn't hurt to be mindful about using the terms in a way that's sensitive to the range of experience here, right?
(Mymaya, fwiw I think you should have made the point you raise as an example in that thread! I really do believe in our ability to talk through things like this, especially because people aren't trying to offend. I totally get that nobody wants to be the person to raise others' defenses, but in the end it has great potential to turn into a growth thing, you know?)
I really don't think anyone meant to jump at anyone else here. I hate to step into a conversation I wasn't part of initially, but I think it's important to point out one thing that Mole said that seems to have been missed: "Not everybody participating on this site identifies with the gender that was assigned them at birth based on their genital sex."
Aligning gender with sex is like assuming that every kid will be heterosexual. It's important that we learn and use the right terms so that there's no confusion, and so that no one is offended. We have lots of diversity on this site, which is wonderful. I don't think that anyone meant to offend by using the word 'gender' in place of 'sex,' but I'm glad that Mole pointed out the correction. It's just something to learn from, and I hope we can all move forward from this.
hyde: I cross-posted with you, and I think we both said basically the same thing.
Hyde, I totally would have raised the other issue (testing) in the other thread had I felt it was actually judgmental or unfair, no problem...:) but as I said, I didn't feel it was, and while I am in the minority as far as that subject is concern, that is fine. I didn't feel there was a reason to stir it. However, I would be happy to discuss it if anyone is interested!
(removed by author)
Edited by kelantan - 2/27/12 at 8:30am
- 1,592 Posts. Joined 5/2007
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dandy, I totally get what you are saying, but the tone of Mole's posts pushes my buttons, especially the assumption that I need to learn something I might already know. I have a lot of empathy, actually. I didn't read all the posts about "gender", but I don't see how it is offensive, if no one meant it that way. I can tell you that I am a minority here, not only where genetic testing is concern. I could jump on many words people have said here. But nothing that's been said on topics such as sexuality, religion, mothering and such has been malicious, or judgmental or one-sided in an offensive way. that's all. Actually one thing did annoy me, and I said so (something about how stress can cause bad outcomes, a comment that was made during an incredibly stressful and worrisome time for me and others...).
Mole, I am sorry if, as you said, the use of the term "gender" has offended you on this thread. I am sure no one meant it in an offensive manner (at least I sure hope so).
Kalentan- I've reported you for hate speech.
MyMaya- I wrote facts. Criticizing content for tone is a tried-and-true silencing tactic used against people with minority opinions. You chose to silence yourself on an important issue. The fact that you chose to silence yourself out politeness or courtesy- I don't know your reasoning- is your choice. Not mine. Because I chose a different approach- not silencing myself, in order to point out a misuse of language that I find to be offensive and hurtful, I have "pressed your buttons"? That is you trying to control my choice in how to engage with this forum. I do not choose to be tone-policed by you. The reason I am here participating despite the sometimes hurtful misuse of language and attempts to silence me, is because I appreciate that most people do not intend to be hurtful. That's wonderful. However, sometimes people say things that are hurtful, despite their best intentions. And if somebody stands up and says "This hurts me" and the response is "You telling me that pushes my buttons"- we can no longer operate under an assumption of good faith. Because then the intent is not to be kind- it is to be right.
I posted before I saw Kel's post- kel, please honey, of course you are entitled to your own views. but please take it far from here, because these views of yours ARE offensive to many people, have no place (in my view, at least) on a pregnancy forum, and are the definition of a "hot topic". I am personally offended by them, my sexual and gender orientation being a no-issue in this case.
I could jump on so many words in your post above to no end, proving to you how offensive they are (especially about raising children), but I would respectfully ask you to just stop right here.
Mole- I am sorry if I upset you. I see your points and respect them, even though I don't like the lecture-like style. But you are right- if you were hurt, it is your right to stand up and state it.
MyMaya- I also want to address what you wrote here "I don't see how it is offensive, if no one meant it that way." It is so wonderful, and so lucky, if you have rarely had to face racism, or sexism, or homophobia, or transphobia, or any of the other social constructions that can really deeply harm people. When another person has an experience different from yours, and says "This thing you say or do hurts me" the *least* you can do, as the privileged person in that context, is listen to them. Simply because you cannot see how something offends them, does not mean that thing is not offensive. No person gets to define what harms all other people, especially when it is in the context of deep structural inequalities. You do not have to be able to see how something is offensive in order to listen to somebody else and try to empathize with them. And I do not see how you can read the hatred spewed by kalantan and still think that everybody participating in this forum has kind intentions and just might have maybe accidentally misused a word. Correctly using the words sex and gender is a very, very small step to help make the world a safer and gentler place for all people.
It is NOT "agree to disagree" like, for example, Capital Punishment is (a hot topic none the less, we would all agree), or even the VERY controversial subject of Spanking is. These are CHOICES people make. You are "expressing" your "democratic" views on something people have no choice in- which is the same as racism and discrimination. I get it that you don't see it that way, but I urge you, again, to stop it right here, because you are about to offend a lot of people, and I am sure you don't mean to. so PLEASE.
mymaya, thank you for responding. I understand that my views are not accepted and i am fine with that. I will withdrawal from this and i apologize deeply to anyone i have offended. I truly do love everyone deeply and feel no ill toward any person.
Off to play with my babies! :)
Mole, i wrote my reply to you BEFORE I saw Kel's post, which I commented on right above this one...... (sorry, the order of posts is confusing at this point). As I said, I am sorry, I see your point, and I get it. i really do. I HAVE been, unfortunately, the subject of discrimination. I know what you are talking about. I am repulsed by views such as Kel's, expressed in such a manner.
I am sorry you were hurt. Please accept my apology.