Tragedy for the Greater Good? - Page 2

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

  Those poor babies and families.

Can you give them each other's contact information, and maybe together they can contact the local news or something?  I doubt anything would come of it, as how strongly the media is controlled, but you never know.

at the very least, the NPR will air a story about it, i would think...i know our local public station would.  i have access to the station, and i can have my own segment on the air if i want to...maybe i should start a health talk show on the radio, and see what kind of discussions come up.  Thanks for the idea

[boomer78]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

Im not a provaxer however this is what I have heard some say when a story like this surfaces.

'Whenever a child loses his life it is a tragedy, however a reaction like this is so incredibly rare - 1 in a million - that no one should take this as a reason to not vaccinate. The benefits still FAR outweigh the risks and this poor child probably had some underlying issue that had not been identified"

The whole issue of having an underlying medical problem and blaming that is convenient. Lets assume it's true....IMO this is what makes the whole concept of vaccinating so risky. If we cannot tell if our child has some genetic issue or mitochondrial issue (like Hannah Polling) or some other "silent" problem that has not been identified because there are no symptoms and otherwise would not cause any serious problem - then vaccinating truly is like playing Russian Roullette. But then the whole "serious reactions are 1 in a million" is used to justify playing that game.

Marnica, this is exactly what I always hear (or read) from pro vaxes when something tragic happens with a child following a vaccine. The incredibly rare reactions are not a reason not to vax and the child must have had an underlying condition. End of story.

[emmy526]

We have the capacity to send a man to the moon, and visit distant galaxies with our space technology..heck, now we've gone to Mars to study the rocks to see if life was there before...we have the world literally at our fingertips via iphones, etc...but science can't come up with a test for babies to see who is at risk from a vaccine reaction??  in this day and age, one would think pharma would have invented such a test, capitalized off of it, made an antidote for said child, capitalized off the antidote, then make more money off of the vaccine eventually given because  pharma gave the "all clear" sign for said child to receive the vaccine, and if they would put their money where their mouth is, they'd make more money off of doing this kind of regimen.  They could actually guarantee parents there would be no reactions, and would gladly pay them for a lifetime of care should there be mistake made and the child suffered.  

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by emmy526 

We have the capacity to send a man to the moon, and visit distant galaxies with our space technology..heck, now we've gone to Mars to study the rocks to see if life was there before...we have the world literally at our fingertips via iphones, etc...but science can't come up with a test for babies to see who is at risk from a vaccine reaction??  in this day and age, one would think pharma would have invented such a test, capitalized off of it, made an antidote for said child, capitalized off the antidote, then make more money off of the vaccine eventually given because  pharma gave the "all clear" sign for said child to receive the vaccine, and if they would put their money where their mouth is, they'd make more money off of doing this kind of regimen.  They could actually guarantee parents there would be no reactions, and would gladly pay them for a lifetime of care should there be mistake made and the child suffered.  

If that were true I think they would have done it. I think it is still more profitable to just keep adding vax to the schedule (and additional boosters) and maligning the questioners. Right now it seems like they are really trying to get the adult market moreso than ever before, especially with flu and dtap. Might as well go for the easier marketing routes before having to invest in something as expensive as actual safety studies. Ensuring your child won't have a reaction, or being able to predict what sort of reaction, that would take a TON of investment (assuming possible), and there just can't be that much incentive. 

Kinda ot, but not really, has anyone seen the movie Unthinkable with Samuel L Jackson? I watched it the other night and it made me think of vax... the ethical/moral issue of harming/killing a few people to "save" many.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by slmommy 

If that were true I think they would have done it. I think it is still more profitable to just keep adding vax to the schedule (and additional boosters) and maligning the questioners. Right now it seems like they are really trying to get the adult market moreso than ever before, especially with flu and dtap. Might as well go for the easier marketing routes before having to invest in something as expensive as actual safety studies. Ensuring your child won't have a reaction, or being able to predict what sort of reaction, that would take a TON of investment (assuming possible), and there just can't be that much incentive. 

I agree.  There isn't any money to be made in that kind of test, and lots of money to be made in vaccines.  It's all about the bottom line...never health.

[emmy526]

but if parents had a choice whether or not to test their kids, don't you think some would opt NOT to just out of dr pressure?  I can just imagine a dr telling the parents, "yes there a risk blood test test available, but i don't think  your child would qualify to take it, theres not enough risk factors in your family"....and the newer vaxes would still be created, sold and administered, regardless, so they arent losing any money.  

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by emmy526 

but if parents had a choice whether or not to test their kids, don't you think some would opt NOT to just out of dr pressure?  I can just imagine a dr telling the parents, "yes there a risk blood test test available, but i don't think  your child would qualify to take it, theres not enough risk factors in your family"....and the newer vaxes would still be created, sold and administered, regardless, so they arent losing any money.  

I think a choice would be wonderful.  I just don't think it would ever happen, because there wouldn't be much money to be made from the test.  The R&D would have to be from a company that doesn't make vaxes, because otherwise it would be a conflict of interest to their own products, and shareholders wouldn't want it.

[slmommy]

I don't see how this could even be possible... we don't even know what underlying genetic/immunological/environmental/ etc issues could factor in vax reactions. And here we speculate vax could be playing a role in neurological disorders, learning disorders, auto immune issues, etc. They have no clue the long term, cumulative consequences of the pediatric vax schedule, and it changes every few years... Ethically we can't even do "real" safety studies on one vaccine. We don't even know the safety of adjuvants. There is no financial incentive to even study the real safety of one vaccine - parents either want it or are convinced or strong armed into getting it. Pharm industry doesn't even have to justify vax for health anymore - for Chicken pox financial issue of parents missing work was enough for it to be added to schedule. While sel/del may be becoming more popular, I think alternative vaxers are still very much the minority, and met with increasing hostility.

I guess they could test for mitochrondrial disorders, look at some (known) genetic markers for autoimmune, some kind of allergy testing... but I don't think that would be close to enough, some of those tests are barely reliable as is. Is there even a way to know which kids will have febrile seizures? We don't even know what causes autism. 

A few months ago I met someone who had been working as a researcher developing new methods for identifying/diagnosing some autoimmune disorders. She had recently quit her job upset with the profit driven-ness of the industry that she felt was hindering valuable developments. She didn't, and I'm sure couldn't go into specifics with me, but I got the real impression she was disgusted.

You read the Simpsonwood Transcripts and the experts there were all admitting they have no real clue what ethylmercury could do to developing babies. They mention concern about aluminum and have no clue what that would do either...

Speculation labeled as science. 

Edited by slmommy - 3/28/12 at 12:53pm

[tonttu]

First of all , let me say , that I cannot even begin to know , how the thread starter´s relative must feel now .

No mother should have to bury her child 

But it does get a big tiring , when non-vaxers , who claim to love their children , come along and blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to the bad , bad vaccines .

We love our kids and that is why we vaccinate them , so that they DO NOT die or have serious side effects from so - called " kids " diseases , that used to kill thousands of kids ( and still do in many countries ) before the age of five . 

Of course , it is the single most unimagineable thing , that can happen , if your child dies from an , extremely rare and unlikely , reaction to a vaccine , but the risk stands in no relation to the benefit , when the vaccine does its job properly .

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

First of all , let me say , that I cannot even begin to know , how the thread starter´s relative must feel now .

No mother should have to bury her child 

But it does get a big tiring , when non-vaxers , who claim to love their children , come along and blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to the bad , bad vaccines .

We love our kids and that is why we vaccinate them , so that they DO NOT die or have serious side effects from so - called " kids " diseases , that used to kill thousands of kids ( and still do in many countries ) before the age of five . 

Of course , it is the single most unimagineable thing , that can happen , if your child dies from an , extremely rare and unlikely , reaction to a vaccine , but the risk stands in no relation to the benefit , when the vaccine does its job properly .

i dont know of any vaccine that does its job properly without some kind of side effects and for some kids, the side effects last a lifetime, and that lifetime might be a day.  For my son, who is 24, it is a never ending battle. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

First of all , let me say , that I cannot even begin to know , how the thread starter´s relative must feel now .

No mother should have to bury her child 

But it does get a big tiring , when non-vaxers , who claim to love their children , come along and blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to the bad , bad vaccines .

We love our kids and that is why we vaccinate them , so that they DO NOT die or have serious side effects from so - called " kids " diseases , that used to kill thousands of kids ( and still do in many countries ) before the age of five . 

Of course , it is the single most unimagineable thing , that can happen , if your child dies from an , extremely rare and unlikely , reaction to a vaccine , but the risk stands in no relation to the benefit , when the vaccine does its job properly .

Bolding mine.  I am not sure why you are bringing up love.  Vaxxers, non vaxxers, selective and delayed….we all love our kids and are doing what we think is best for them.  

As per the risk in relation to the benefit - that is up for debate (shrug).  I have decided that the risk of vaccinating is higher where I live than the risk of getting the disease and having a bad reaction to it.  

I do hear you on the fact that it gets tiring to hear people blaming "everything and anything on the bad bad vaccines" - but it likewise gets very tiring when many parents are screaming that they believe vaccines injured their children and no one is listening to them.   There needs to be less blame, finger pointing and sticking the head in the sand  - and more working together for accountabilty and safety.  

Edited by purslaine - 3/29/12 at 11:49am

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

First of all , let me say , that I cannot even begin to know , how the thread starter´s relative must feel now .

No mother should have to bury her child 

But it does get a big tiring , when non-vaxers , who claim to love their children , come along and blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to the bad , bad vaccines .

We love our kids and that is why we vaccinate them , so that they DO NOT die or have serious side effects from so - called " kids " diseases , that used to kill thousands of kids ( and still do in many countries ) before the age of five . 

Of course , it is the single most unimagineable thing , that can happen , if your child dies from an , extremely rare and unlikely , reaction to a vaccine , but the risk stands in no relation to the benefit , when the vaccine does its job properly .

You pretty much illustrated EXACTLY what I said upthread in my post - Thanks
 

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

First of all , let me say , that I cannot even begin to know , how the thread starter´s relative must feel now .

No mother should have to bury her child 

But it does get a big tiring , when non-vaxers , who claim to love their children , come along and blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to the bad , bad vaccines .

We love our kids and that is why we vaccinate them , so that they DO NOT die or have serious side effects from so - called " kids " diseases , that used to kill thousands of kids ( and still do in many countries ) before the age of five . 

Of course , it is the single most unimagineable thing , that can happen , if your child dies from an , extremely rare and unlikely , reaction to a vaccine , but the risk stands in no relation to the benefit , when the vaccine does its job properly .

This is the "I'm Not Vaccinating" forum.  Your comments are mind-bogglingly offensive, ignorant, and uncalled for.

[tonttu]

Well , I am simply stating MY point of view !

And as this is ( in my experience ) an open - minded and democratic forum , I have the same right to do so as other people , who are trying to  make all of us pro - vaccers ( and I am by no means uncritical of medical procedures as a whole ) , look like we don´t know , what we are talking about !

[slmommy]

tonttu, I don't know... if you wanna chat/argue about vax maybe we can start a thread in the main vax forum... this thread especially seems like a not great place for this...

[tonttu]

slmommy , you are probably right ! This is a HUGE topic with no black - and - white to it and many different ways to look at it . 

It simply upsets me , that many times it seems like us vaccers are under attack and at the same time , people who are anti - vac complain , that everybody goes after them . It´s quite contradictory  and I get carried away ! Sorry !

But maybe there should not only be a " I´m not vaccinating " forum , but also an " I am vaccinating " 

I am sure , there would be people interested in that as well and it does not contradict natural living 

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Well , I am simply stating MY point of view !

And as this is ( in my experience ) an open - minded and democratic forum , I have the same right to do so as other people , who are trying to  make all of us pro - vaccers ( and I am by no means uncritical of medical procedures as a whole ) , look like we don´t know , what we are talking about !

Nobody is denying you your point of view. of course you have a right to your opinion, but what you have posted is a violation of the guidelines of this forum and would be more appropariately posted in the main vax forum that's all.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

slmommy , you are probably right ! This is a HUGE topic with no black - and - white to it and many different ways to look at it . 

It simply upsets me , that many times it seems like us vaccers are under attack and at the same time , people who are anti - vac complain , that everybody goes after them . It´s quite contradictory  and I get carried away ! Sorry !

But maybe there should not only be a " I´m not vaccinating " forum , but also an " I am vaccinating " 

I am sure , there would be people interested in that as well and it does not contradict natural living 

There is a Vaccinating forum.

No one is attacking vaccinators here.  But when you come on this thread and say that non-vaxers "claim to love their children" and that vaccinators love their children and that's why "you" vax them - did you really expect courteous replies?  You obviously have a misconception that non-vaccinators don't love their children, which is one of the most offensive things I've ever read.

[slmommy]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

 a misconception that non-vaccinators don't love their children, which is one of the most offensive things I've ever read.

Sadly, this seems to be a vax advertising technique... I remember (and wish I could find it on youtube, but I don't remember which pharmacy...) seeing a commercial on tv a few years ago for flu vax. Mom, Dad, 2 twin babies- one boy one girl. The parents go and get vaxed with the implied/stated message - it's not about you, it's for them - hearts, hearts, floating hearts on screen, or something along those lines... it was a few years ago, so I don't remember exactly but I DO remember the message...

vax = love.   

[Mosaic]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

slmommy , you are probably right ! This is a HUGE topic with no black - and - white to it and many different ways to look at it . 
It simply upsets me , that many times it seems like us vaccers are under attack and at the same time , people who are anti - vac complain , that everybody goes after them . It´s quite contradictory  and I get carried away ! Sorry !
But maybe there should not only be a " I´m not vaccinating " forum , but also an " I am vaccinating " 
I am sure , there would be people interested in that as well and it does not contradict natural living 

tonttu, as others have pointed out, we do have a "Vaccinating" forum, and you are welcome to express your frustrations there. That said, I highly recommend you review the forum guidelines
Vaccination Forum Guidelines
I'm Not Vaccinating Guidelines

This is not a place for debate or discussions on the merits of vaccines or the dangers of not vaccinating, it is also not a place to argue against vaccines or selective and delayed vaccination schedules.

Your comments here are against forum guidelines, and I recommend that you edit them and/or apologize.