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Tragedy for the Greater Good? - Page 3

post #41 of 61

Well , like I said in my post , I am not out to hurt others feelings , whether they think they are right or not and the statement I made , was off - topic, agreeing with another post in response to the same OP and had nothing to do directly with the OP about the family losing their baby .

That is of course , apart from the fact , that I do believe , no mother should have to bury her child , no matter , what the reason and cause of  his death .

post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

I do hear you on the fact that it gets tiring to hear people blaming "everything and anything on the bad bad vaccines" - but it likewise gets very tiring when many parents are screaming that they believe vaccines injured their children and no one is listening to them.   There needs to be less blame, finger pointing and sticking the head in the sand  - and more working together for accountabilty and safety.  

 


yeahthat.gif bolding mine

 

I believe my daughter's epilepsy is a result of her vaccinations.  (My children were also preemies and were not vaccinated based upon adjusted age.  Unfortunately, we continued to vaccinate for a several years after the seizures started.)  Most neurologists agree her seizures were caused by the vax's but the pediatricians still push us to continue vaccinating. 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

It simply upsets me , that many times it seems like us vaccers are under attack and at the same time , people who are anti - vac complain , that everybody goes after them . It´s quite contradictory and I get carried away ! Sorry !


I've never 'attacked' someone who vaccinates as tonttu has been attacked.  I can understand the reasons why people vaccinate even though I regret my decision to vaccinate.  However, I've learned to keep quiet about our decision to no longer vaccinate since I have been on the receiving end of angry comments/lectures from people who vaccinate.  I've been told I was irresponsible, selfish, ignorant, etc.

 

 

 

sorry to keep editing and adding to this post....but I also get carried away since I know my uninformed decision to vaccinate changed my daughter's life and who she is.  I am lucky that my children's reactions did not cause death as in the OP.


Edited by dbsam - 3/30/12 at 12:24pm
post #43 of 61

Exactly as I ! 

And , off topic , my older cousin died from measles , when he was 13 . 

He was never vaccinated , since his Mother felt , the risk from vaccine was greater than that from a " harmless " childhood disease . 

So , to me ( and that is MY personal way , that I would not push on anybody else ) there is NO WAY , I would not vaccinate my kids in order to protect them from those " harmless " diseases .

I´d rather have a child with  a vaccine - related problem , than a dead one !  

post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post


I´d rather have a child with  a vaccine - related problem , than a dead one !  



Tanttu, it's not your choice.  Your child could die either way.  You can't choose whether your child will die from a vaccine or "only" be damaged by a vaccine. 

 

There is only one way to definitely prevent death caused by vaccination: don't vaccinate.

 

And as was stated above this isn't really the place to argue...  I have never heard ANYONE ANYWHERE attack vaxers' choices.  Non-vaxers are often judged and put down for being stupid, irresponsible, not loving their children, not caring about other people's children (the greater good), being gullible, being ignorant of science.  You did come to this thread and say judgmental things.  Do you really think we don't know what these diseases are or have never heard of a child dying from measles before?  Do you think we need to be educated to know why vaxers vax?  

 

I think you really are trying to be nice, though, too.  Maybe if you reread your own comments you will see how easy it was for you to say mean things about people who don't vax, without really thinking or meaning to be unkind.  It's actually true that a surprising number of deaths are caused by vaccines.  No one wants a child to die from measles.  Or from a vaccine.  Now, if we choose not to vax, can we simply be respected?  I really and truly don't care one bit whether you vax.  Not one bit.  I've never judged you and am simply not at all interested in which you do one way or the other. 

 

If vaxers likewise would mind their own business and let me mind mine and not comment what I choose, that would be enough for me.  :)  I don't want to be educated with things I have already studied myself way more than you have.  Fair enough?  Because it's really just fine with me if you choose to vax.  100% fine.  I promise.

post #45 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

First of all , let me say , that I cannot even begin to know , how the thread starter´s relative must feel now .

No mother should have to bury her child hug2.gif

But it does get a big tiring , when non-vaxers , who claim to love their children , come along and blame EVERYTHING and ANYTHING to the bad , bad vaccines .

We love our kids and that is why we vaccinate them , so that they DO NOT die or have serious side effects from so - called " kids " diseases , that used to kill thousands of kids ( and still do in many countries ) before the age of five . 

Of course , it is the single most unimagineable thing , that can happen , if your child dies from an , extremely rare and unlikely , reaction to a vaccine , but the risk stands in no relation to the benefit , when the vaccine does its job properly .


Would you still feel this way if you were burying YOUR child from an undisputable vaccine reaction? Would you still vaccinate your other children? I mean, the reactions are so rare and the benefits outweigh the risks, right? Tell me, if your baby died, would you continue to vaccinate and say things like, "the risk stands in no relation to the benefit". Because let me tell you, if I had a child die from a VPD, I would NOT get my other children vaccinated against said VPD.
 

 

post #46 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post
 . 

Of course , it is the single most unimagineable thing , that can happen , if your child dies from an , extremely rare and unlikely , reaction to a vaccine , but the risk stands in no relation to the benefit , when the vaccine does its job properly .


thats kinda odd, your stats..since i posted this story,  i have now heard of  3 babies  dying all within 2 weeks of each other, all at 2mos, all had just recieved their 2mo shots...so tell me again, how "rare" is it??????????

 

post #47 of 61

In order for me to believe that , one should present me with cold , hard facts , since ANYONE can post a private story ( invented or true ) on the Internet .

And yes , I still would vaccinate my baby , since looking back in history , before there was vaccination , the number of kids dying from those diseases were very high . And if everybody would stop vaccinating , those numbers would go up again , as they have a few years ago happened in Germany .

Many people wouldn´t vaccinate against measles anymore , so in ( I think it was ) Niedersachsen , there was a big outbreak , with hundreds of people getting sick and many of them dying or suffering from bad complications . 

And this is really the root of the problem , of course it is easy in any country , where there is a high vaccination rate , to say " I don´t vaccinate , people die from it "  

Which might be true , very rarely , but the truth is , that the number of deaths and disability from the actual disease will , if we don´t vaccinate anymore , be a lot higher after a few years time . 

Of course , naturally aquired immunity is sometimes longer lasting , but if you for example look at tetanus , there is a death rate of up to 73 % , so once you are over it , you will be immune , but only if you are one of the few people , that actually survive it in the first place . 

post #48 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

In order for me to believe that , one should present me with cold , hard facts , since ANYONE can post a private story ( invented or true ) on the Internet .

And yes , I still would vaccinate my baby , since looking back in history , before there was vaccination , the number of kids dying from those diseases were very high . And if everybody would stop vaccinating , those numbers would go up again , as they have a few years ago happened in Germany .

Many people wouldn´t vaccinate against measles anymore , so in ( I think it was ) Niedersachsen , there was a big outbreak , with hundreds of people getting sick and many of them dying or suffering from bad complications . 

And this is really the root of the problem , of course it is easy in any country , where there is a high vaccination rate , to say " I don´t vaccinate , people die from it "  

Which might be true , very rarely , but the truth is , that the number of deaths and disability from the actual disease will , if we don´t vaccinate anymore , be a lot higher after a few years time . 

Of course , naturally aquired immunity is sometimes longer lasting , but if you for example look at tetanus , there is a death rate of up to 73 % , so once you are over it , you will be immune , but only if you are one of the few people , that actually survive it in the first place . 

tonttu,

 I believe that I have read, quite a few parents in germany and austria are interested in their children getting natural measles immunity, and actually have measles parties like some Americans still do chicken pox parties.

There are sooo many health, nutrition, medical care, environmental factors pre-vaccination that affect vpd outcomes, you can not possibly compare rates to what today's would be without vaccination. It is also not relevant to show vpd rates in war torn, famine striken nations. We have no idea. We also have no idea about real vax safety.

 

Take a look at this dicussion about vax safety http://www.mothering.com/community/t/481760/do-you-know-how-vaccines-are-evaluated-for-safety-prepare-to-be-surprised

 

As far as cold hard facts, please go find me a long term study of safety of the cumulative pediatric schedule. Better yet let's find a better place to discuss this than the "I'm NOT vaccinating forum"

 

 

 

post #49 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post


And this is really the root of the problem , of course it is easy in any country , where there is a high vaccination rate , to say " I don´t vaccinate , people die from it "  

Which might be true , very rarely , but the truth is , that the number of deaths and disability from the actual disease will , if we don´t vaccinate anymore , be a lot higher after a few years time . 

 



Prove it.  Prove to me exactly how rare deaths are from vaxes.  Show me that you have collected all of the information, and that the collection methods aren't missing critical numbers of cases.  Then prove to me that it is rare. 

 

Then prove to me exactly how many deaths there will definitely be among healthy populations with good modern nutrition if we don't vax. Show me YOUR cold, hard facts.  NOT how many deaths there were in the past under different conditions, but proof of how many there will be in the future with good medical care and good nutrition. 

 

Once you've done it with deaths, do it with injuries.  Now remember that you need data collection methods that minimize error so that you do not miss any injuries either, or let's say fewer than 10%.  Now the cold hard fact is that such a data collection method has never been employed.  However, there are thousands and thousands of COMPENSATED death and injury claims.  So those presumably have been confirmed as caused by vaxes.  However, please recall that there is some number of injuries and deaths which have not been attributed to vaccines, but that may have been caused by them.  We do not understand very well the mechanisms of death and injury caused by vaccines.  We know they happen AT LEAST to the frequency of compensation, but we don't know how much more especially since we aren't trying to find out.  (!!!)  But we CAN be certain that it's more than we are compensating because it's quite obvious that our current arrangement would be guaranteed to miss some incidents because it is set up to require a lot of effort to make a claim, some parents because of intense popular faith in vaccinations would be disinclined to make a connection with vaccines at all, and some doctors are disinclined to suggest such a connection as well.

 

Until you have definitely ACCURATE and reasonably COMPLETE information for BOTH SIDES of this (which does not even currently exist), then your own claim actually has nothing solid to back it up.

 

Do you not understand that one of hte top reasons non-vaxers are so upset is that the need for serious research into the side effects and damages caused by vaccines has been largely ignored.  We want to know exactly why these deaths occur, how often they occur, and how to definitely prevent them.  This is a criticism of the medical establishment and our government, both of which are hardly even trying to find out more about this subject.  We want it taken seriously.  We want studies of death and damage from vaccines and real effort to learn how to keep them from happening.  Why is there so much resistance to taking that seriously?  That's what is really really tragic about it all.

post #50 of 61

tonttu, during the mid 80s the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was set up in the US --- 

Quote:
[In its formation...] The Court articulated the reason for this lower burden then that necessary in civil court "to allow the finding of causation in a field bereft of complete and direct proof of how vaccines affect the human body.52  

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr   (Page 10 of pdf)

 

"A field BEREFT of complete and direct proof of how vaccines affect the human body"

 

This is straight from horse's mouth, so to speak, and I could not have said it better myself. BEREFT.

 

post #51 of 61

Slmommy is right. First, vaccines aren't mandatory at all in Germany and Austria. Many parents choose to delay and select and large pockets don't do any. Measles is far from scarce, many parents prefer to get it naturally (no judgement either way here on my part). Most docs are cool with parents' choices. No schools care about vaccine records. None of my friends chose stuff like flu or chickenpox for their children, some friends don't vax at all. Some cousins only start at a later age (4-5 years, and then very selective, like we do). You can't track the number of fully vaccinated children as well becuase there are no exemptions to be handed in. Heck when I grew up my parents chose very little vaccines (after it was no longer East Germany, which was a tyranny in the medical field allowing on choice). I never had the MMR as a child, only as adult for the darn green card (and only needed it for the rubella component). You can't really compare the countries to each other that well. And apart from that, children's health is greatly impacted by the food around them - EU safety standards are higher. There is no pink slime meat. Organics are soooo much cheaper, it's even cheaper than regular produce in the US. A recent study even showed German peds are careful prescribing antibiotics (e.g. for ear infections extremely rarely, it was in the German papers 2 months ago) - antibiotics are handed out like candy by most doctors around here (all the ones I have met, to be fair - most kids we know are on antis at least every 4 months for one thing or the other). Just saying the whole systems are so different.... No mandates, easier to get good food, no fluoride in the water so it's actually potable, less food additives. All of that plays a role in children's health IMHO. 

post #52 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by slmommy View Post

I don't see how this could even be possible... we don't even know what underlying genetic/immunological/environmental/ etc issues could factor in vax reactions.... . 


Oh, but we Do know many underlying issues that predispose one towards adverse vaccine reactions:
Personal or family history of autism, diabetes, thyroid disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, MS eczema, psoriasis, asthma, celiac, food allergies,etc.

In other words, all the risk factors that the vaccine manufacturers weed out when they determine who can participate in their "safety studies."

They KNOW this predisposes one to a reaction, just like they KNOW that an infant with a fever or with diarrhea is also much more likely to have a reaction.

That, to me, is what is unforgivable.

THEY ALREADY KNOW.
post #53 of 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

Oh, but we Do know many underlying issues that predispose one towards adverse vaccine reactions:
Personal or family history of autism, diabetes, thyroid disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, MS eczema, psoriasis, asthma, celiac, food allergies,etc.
In other words, all the risk factors that the vaccine manufacturers weed out when they determine who can participate in their "safety studies."
They KNOW this predisposes one to a reaction, just like they KNOW that an infant with a fever or with diarrhea is also much more likely to have a reaction.
That, to me, is what is unforgivable.
THEY ALREADY KNOW.


I hadn't thought about that - who is ruled out for the "safety" studies. But are they really ruled out because they know these people have higher reaction rates, or just because they are of "poor" health and may not have the immune response to the vax desired?

 

Let's see, personally I have thyroid and celiac, eczema in past, reacted to DTP myself, family covers diabetes, asthma, food allergies for me too...

but pretty much every over the counter medication I could pick up states that people with thyroid conditions should consult dr before taking... I thought that was more along the lines of "we just don't really know"... kinda like how no one really knows what drugs pregnant/nursing women can take. 

 

One thing that couldn't be covered is nutrition/exposure to other toxins... as far as knowing how those things could affect vax reactions, and who is at risk.... or if they are even factors or not.

 


Edited by slmommy - 4/1/12 at 5:46pm
post #54 of 61
Thread Starter 
post #55 of 61

candle.gif

post #56 of 61



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

In order for me to believe that , one should present me with cold , hard facts , since ANYONE can post a private story ( invented or true ) on the Internet .

And yes , I still would vaccinate my baby , since looking back in history , before there was vaccination , the number of kids dying from those diseases were very high . And if everybody would stop vaccinating , those numbers would go up again , as they have a few years ago happened in Germany .

Many people wouldn´t vaccinate against measles anymore , so in ( I think it was ) Niedersachsen , there was a big outbreak , with hundreds of people getting sick and many of them dying or suffering from bad complications . 

And this is really the root of the problem , of course it is easy in any country , where there is a high vaccination rate , to say " I don´t vaccinate , people die from it "  

Which might be true , very rarely , but the truth is , that the number of deaths and disability from the actual disease will , if we don´t vaccinate anymore , be a lot higher after a few years time . 

Of course , naturally aquired immunity is sometimes longer lasting , but if you for example look at tetanus , there is a death rate of up to 73 % , so once you are over it , you will be immune , but only if you are one of the few people , that actually survive it in the first place . 



 Why are you still in this forum? Not only have you not edited your comments and/or apologized for offending a bunch of people like the moderator asked you to, you continue to try to argue in a place where it is not appropraite to do so. just sayin' (and your example of tetanus is a poor one since it is not a communicable disease)

post #57 of 61

h


Edited by member234098 - 5/25/12 at 4:50pm
post #58 of 61
Well, I certainly sympathize with anyone who suffers a severe reaction to a vaccine, since I have, and all my children have.

It's absolute BS when the "pro-science" people insist that such reactions are 1 in a million. They don't want to hear the truth. We try to tell them, "Hey, we were told it was 1 in a million, too, but since our adverse reactions were never studied or even reported, and the same has happened with thousands of other people, how on earth can you STILL believe the reactions are 1 in a million?" And they accuse us of making up our reactions, or of confusing correlation with causation, or they pretend that WE are still 1 in a million.

And they pretend that shots like the flu shot are effective, long after studies have shown them to be as effective as...a placebo.
post #59 of 61

M


Edited by member234098 - 5/23/12 at 6:19pm
post #60 of 61
Thread Starter 

and no one wonders why an entire nursing home can be vaccinated for the flu, yet the place goes into "quarantine" because of a flu epidemic in the place...go figure...i figure a mass vaccine failure. I've worked in them, and have seen it. Year in and year out. 

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