Warning: this is a vent. It may come off judgmental, harsh, and rude. - Page 2

[philomom]

Originally Posted by Dave2GA 

Circumcision is the American insanity.  I sent a buddy, otherwise extremely intelligent and broad minded, a ton of info and even assured him I would not ask about his decision.  When his son was born he texted me in the middle of the night with the news.  I replied, "Congratulations, hope mom and baby are doing fine."  The next text from him was "Sorry, we just circumcised him."  He saw me a week or so later and hugged me and said "Sorry."  I replied, "Don't apologize to me, apologize to your son."  He replied,"He'll love it."  I replied, "We'll see."

I so agree. With the insanity thing.

[skyblufig]

I think you handled it as gracefully as possible. I have no poker face when it comes to situations like that. Case in point: I was recently at a friend's house to meet her brand new baby and just as UPS rang, we both smelled a poopy dipe. So I told her I was happy to change him while she went down to the door. Well, I went to change him, and... circ'd. I would be yelling too if I pooped on such raw, tender skin!   So I stood there and changed him, apologizing and crying (quietly). I was as gentle as possible, but seriously, there is no way that doesn't really hurt. As soon as she was back upstairs, I just mumbled an apology about having to go so soon, beautiful baby, etc and got the hell out of there. She is somewhat crunchy in many ways, so that hadn't even crossed my mind as being on the table...   I have no idea what people are thinking sometimes.

Jen

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by sharon71 

My pet peeve is when people say "Oh I did the research but we are still going to circ our son" BULL if you did any decent research you'd do just the opposite and leave him intact.

Yes, there are many who claim to have done their research but many of them haven't.

I also hate the "he needs to look like daddy" "I don't have a penis so I'm letting DH,daddy make the circ decision", "I don't want other boys laughing at him","no woman will even want him" excuses.

When I first joined this issue, none of those justifications were used.  The ones that were used were quickly debunked so they evolved and started looking for justifications that couldn't be rationally and logically refuted.  The first two are this.  They think no one can refute them but we can and do.  Eventually they'll realize this and find more to justify.  They won't work either.

Frank

[pickle18]

After much deliberation and dragging of feet...we did have DS circ'ed.  We tried to find the best pediatric urologist (not just a random OB) and we were there soothing him and holding his hands during the entire procedure.  We tried to make sure he had the best pain management possible.  I nursed him immediately afterward...and we cried, and cried, and cried. 

It was the most horrific experience.  I fully regret it.  I should have done more research (beyond cursory web searches) to find a video of the actual procedure - I can't describe how awful it was to be there and watch how bad this procedure actually is (even under the best of circumstances!).  I wish I had had the guts to scream, "STOP!" and grab DS and run.

In searching for support from friends and family, we found none.  I wish I had found MDC that early on and felt like I had a community supporting us, which we totally lacked IRL.

About those "reasons" - first, the "boys need to look like their dad" argument is just sadly cyclical - if everyone has to be circ'ed to look like their dad - where does it end????  Someone has to be brave enough to stop the cycle, so a natural man can have a natural boy and then they can look alike. 

That said, I'm ashamed to admit that I was with one un-circ'ed man and was completely disturbed by it.  I don't think this is solely a lack of character on my part, though - rather, it was more like culture shock.  I had never, ever, ever seen this.  I didn't know why it looked that way, how it "worked" - I was totally freaked out (probably like some girls are when they first see one, period).  So, I'm not saying this is right - the *natural* human body should be, well, natural!  But when it's not the social norm, women *can* easily develop negative viewpoints of it, and, with good (if misled) intentions, extrapolate their experiences to future partners for their son.  If those women really understood what the procedure was like...if it wasn't done behind closed doors and minimized by society...it would be different.  If more babies aren't subjected to it and grow into men that these women see more often - it will change.

I also do happen to have several friends who knew un-circ'ed boys who were teased mercilessly, so that is not just a "made up" reason.  It happens.  As do boys who suffer infections from improper hygiene, and boys who attempt to circ themselves to match others.  It happens (you can argue the rarity, but it's out there).  Like the sexual attractiveness reason, there IS something to it, so dismissing those reasons flat out isn't helpful.  The thing to drive home is that when those reasons are stacked up against the awful truth of what the "procedure" really is...they are grains of sand next to the Empire State building.

The idea that it is essentially performing plastic surgery on an infant didn't hit home until I had my sweet baby boy home, raw and bleeding, with pen marks on him...I completely lost it, bawling and bawling and apologizing to him. That should never happen to a poor, defenseless baby.  No matter what the reason, what the fear is - it's just not worth it.

[MichelleZB]

Originally Posted by pickle18 

I also do happen to have several friends who knew un-circ'ed boys who were teased mercilessly, so that is not just a "made up" reason.  It happens.  As do boys who suffer infections from improper hygiene, and boys who attempt to circ themselves to match others.  It happens (you can argue the rarity, but it's out there).  Like the sexual attractiveness reason, there IS something to it, so dismissing those reasons flat out isn't helpful.  The thing to drive home is that when those reasons are stacked up against the awful truth of what the "procedure" really is...they are grains of sand next to the Empire State building.

Although: the fewer boys that are circumcised, the less any of these things you mention happen. Honestly, my brother is intact, and he was born in 1989. We live in Canada, so about half his friends are uncircumcised and the women he runs into are quite used to it. He has honestly--I'm not making this up--not heard a word of complaint or surprise about his penis, not from his friends, not from his many sex partners. So while you say that some women really do recoil at an intact penis (as you did), I'll have to add that they won't, not for long.

And will intact boys be "teased mercilessly" in a roomful of other intact boys? Sure, but not about their penises.

So you see, the best thing to do to combat these reasons is just to keep your sons intact, because the more that are, the fewer social problems they encounter (if any).

[pickle18]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

Although: the fewer boys that are circumcised, the less any of these things you mention happen. Honestly, my brother is intact, and he was born in 1989. We live in Canada, so about half his friends are uncircumcised and the women he runs into are quite used to it. He has honestly--I'm not making this up--not heard a word of complaint or surprise about his penis, not from his friends, not from his many sex partners. So while you say that some women really do recoil at an intact penis (as you did), I'll have to add that they won't, not for long.

So you see, the best thing to do to combat these reasons is just to keep your sons intact, because the more that are, the fewer social problems they encounter (if any).

Exactly.  That's why I said, "If more babies aren't subjected to it and grow into men that these women see more often - it will change."

I'm glad to hear your brother hasn't had any issues with it.  I hope it does change!

(oh, the boys teasing him thing - that actually was about not being circumcised - really.  I actually have multiple examples of that where I grew up in the States, because in my area, circ is by far the norm - of course, those boys *usually* weren't teased quite as bad [because there was a speck of cultural sensitivity] as the boys who WERE circ'ed and leaning like the tower of Pisa.  Boys are boys, and can be cruel - not endorsing any of it, just my experience.).

[Adaline'sMama]

I haven't read all of the posts, and this may not be a popular statement, but that would be one less friend that I had. Not because of her decision, but because of how shallow it is.

[monkeyscience]

Just wanted to say - bravo to you for offering the information, and declining to become confrontational about it. I know others feel differently, but I have really NEVER seen anyone change their mind about any issue (especially one that is very emotionally charged) because someone keeps hounding them. You offered information, and you stuck to your promise to not get in their face about it. They may not have made the decision you would have hoped for, but now they have something to percolate in the backs of their minds. And they know that if they have questions in the future, they can count on you to provide information and not be in their face. So go ahead and vent - I would be frustrated, too. But keep up the good ambassadorship!

[hakunangovi]

Originally Posted by pickle18 

After much deliberation and dragging of feet...we did have DS circ'ed.  We tried to find the best pediatric urologist (not just a random OB) and we were there soothing him and holding his hands during the entire procedure.  We tried to make sure he had the best pain management possible.  I nursed him immediately afterward...and we cried, and cried, and cried. 

It was the most horrific experience.  I fully regret it.  I should have done more research (beyond cursory web searches) to find a video of the actual procedure - I can't describe how awful it was to be there and watch how bad this procedure actually is (even under the best of circumstances!).  I wish I had had the guts to scream, "STOP!" and grab DS and run.

In searching for support from friends and family, we found none.  I wish I had found MDC that early on and felt like I had a community supporting us, which we totally lacked IRL.

About those "reasons" - first, the "boys need to look like their dad" argument is just sadly cyclical - if everyone has to be circ'ed to look like their dad - where does it end????  Someone has to be brave enough to stop the cycle, so a natural man can have a natural boy and then they can look alike. 

That said, I'm ashamed to admit that I was with one un-circ'ed man and was completely disturbed by it.  I don't think this is solely a lack of character on my part, though - rather, it was more like culture shock.  I had never, ever, ever seen this.  I didn't know why it looked that way, how it "worked" - I was totally freaked out (probably like some girls are when they first see one, period).  So, I'm not saying this is right - the *natural* human body should be, well, natural!  But when it's not the social norm, women *can* easily develop negative viewpoints of it, and, with good (if misled) intentions, extrapolate their experiences to future partners for their son.  If those women really understood what the procedure was like...if it wasn't done behind closed doors and minimized by society...it would be different.  If more babies aren't subjected to it and grow into men that these women see more often - it will change.

I also do happen to have several friends who knew un-circ'ed boys who were teased mercilessly, so that is not just a "made up" reason.  It happens.  As do boys who suffer infections from improper hygiene, and boys who attempt to circ themselves to match others.  It happens (you can argue the rarity, but it's out there).  Like the sexual attractiveness reason, there IS something to it, so dismissing those reasons flat out isn't helpful.  The thing to drive home is that when those reasons are stacked up against the awful truth of what the "procedure" really is...they are grains of sand next to the Empire State building.

The idea that it is essentially performing plastic surgery on an infant didn't hit home until I had my sweet baby boy home, raw and bleeding, with pen marks on him...I completely lost it, bawling and bawling and apologizing to him. That should never happen to a poor, defenseless baby.  No matter what the reason, what the fear is - it's just not worth it.

Pickle18,  Thank you for having the courage to post your story.  I suspect many have had a similar experience, and feel the same way, but few of them have the guts to admit it.

[Frankly Speaking]

Sharon71 wrote:  "My pet peeve is when people say "Oh I did the research but we are still going to circ our son" BULL if you did any decent research you'd do just the opposite and leave him intact."

Yes, they have found that they are expected to have done their research and use it as a shield.  Their actions show they have not done their research.

It may be that they have done the research when they searched "circumcision" and clicked on two or three sites that appeared to agree with them.  That's not research, just finding justifications.

I also hate the "he needs to look like daddy"

This is the fall back.   They think you can not debate that.

"I don't have a penis so I'm letting DH,daddy make the circ decision",

Another fall back they think you don't have an answer for.

"I don't want other boys laughing at him"

This is a very old and very outdated justification.  The 2009 infant circumcision rate was 32.5% so it will be her circumcised kid that will be made fun of.  This also clarifies that she did not do the research she claims to have done.

"no woman will even want him" excuses.

Another out dated belief.  Women of his age group will not have many choices among circumcised men/boys because there will be few of them.  All women of his age group are going to eventually have to accept intact men just like American men have to accept intact women or get no sex.

.

[MichelleZB]

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking 

"no woman will even want him" excuses.

Another out dated belief.  Women of his age group will not have many choices among circumcised men/boys because there will be few of them.  All women of his age group are going to eventually have to accept intact men just like American men have to accept intact women or get no sex.

.

And not just accept, but love those intact men! I have to say that I always get quite sad reading the "no woman will want him" thing, because I broke up with an intact man with a beautiful penis and I wanted him more than anything (and still do, sometimes, when I think about it). Women will want them, oh yes, they will.

[Sharlla]

i wont be friends with someone who ive educated and still choose to make that horrible choice.  i dont care who they are, I simply cannot respect someone that would do it knowing full well how wrong it is and i will cut them out of my life.