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not too happy with this

post #1 of 246
Thread Starter 

http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/28/10520642-sweet-photo-of-dad-feeding-baby-turns-controversial

 

Assuming this is true, I don't think LLL should have done this. I think it just widens the gap instead of closing it. The focus should be on educating and encouraging new moms to breastfeed, not demonizing those who bottlefeed. 

post #2 of 246

I don't think there was any demonizing happening. Here's an explanation from La Leche League Canada. http://www.lllc.ca/rugby-player-and-bottle

 

To me it makes sense for a government health promotion ad to have health promoting images and messages in it.

post #3 of 246
Thread Starter 

The article you recommended does a much better job explaining it. I'm just afraid most people won't read it. I certainly support the reasoning, but I'm afraid most people will hear about it without hearing the explanation, which is evident by the types of comments left after the first article.

post #4 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by motheringforme View Post

http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/28/10520642-sweet-photo-of-dad-feeding-baby-turns-controversial

 

Assuming this is true, I don't think LLL should have done this. I think it just widens the gap instead of closing it. The focus should be on educating and encouraging new moms to breastfeed, not demonizing those who bottlefeed. 


I agree completely and I think this is why so many women are intimidated by the thought of seeking out LLL for support. This is why they are called the "breastfeeding nazis". (FTR I don't condone calling anyone Nazis but actual Nazis).

 

post #5 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by motheringforme View Post

The article you recommended does a much better job explaining it. I'm just afraid most people won't read it. I certainly support the reasoning, but I'm afraid most people will hear about it without hearing the explanation, which is evident by the types of comments left after the first article.


I know what you mean. My first thought when I heard about this was "why are we even hearing about this?" Usually these decisions are all made in a back room somewhere and only the finished product is seen by the public. It makes me think that someone with an agenda may have leaked it - and sadly with success if that was the case.

 

post #6 of 246

Probably because a father feeding his baby should be viewed as standard and normal as a mother feeding her baby!

 

We are hearing about it because LLL has gone way too far. IMHO, it is totally out of bounds to say an image of a father feeding his baby can not be part of an anti-smoking ad. Give me a break! I find it as outrageous as the people commenting on the article and I have breastfed two children until age 3! 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatioGardener View Post


I know what you mean. My first thought when I heard about this was "why are we even hearing about this?"



 

post #7 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaye View Post

Probably because a father feeding his baby should be viewed as standard and normal as a mother feeding her baby!

Excuse me?  A parent bottle feeding a baby should be viewed as standard and normal as a mother breastfeeding  her baby?  Is that what you're saying?  How could a breastfeeding advocate think such a thing?

 

It is so important to promote the image of breastfeeding as the norm.  

 

Images that normalize bottle feeding are harmful to the health of society.  The makers of the ad were absolutely right to remove the image of bottle feeding.

post #8 of 246
Dads have a huge role in parenting infants but somehow all people focus on is feeding. I'd love to see photos of dads playing with baby while changing diapers or babywearing sleeping LOs or bathing baby or any one of a million other things except bottle feeding. We are mammals and are meant to nurse. To promote the healthiest possible infant nutrition, dads just can't really help much with actually feeding baby in most circumstances. I'm all about fathers being portrayed in a nurturing, loving light and there are a million other activities that can be depicted to show this.
post #9 of 246
Bottles have no place, it has nothing to do with dad vs mom or anything else, I guess you have to look at the larger picture. LLL is one of the very few trying to normalize bf and like any other area of change it will sometimes make people uncomfortable.
post #10 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by tanyam926 View Post

Bottles have no place, it has nothing to do with dad vs mom or anything else, I guess you have to look at the larger picture. LLL is one of the very few trying to normalize bf and like any other area of change it will sometimes make people uncomfortable.

Seriously, "bottles have no place?" No place? What about babies who have a bad latch in the beginning? Moms who have a hard time making enough milk? People who have jobs? Moms who have more than one kid who needs to eat in the middle of the night?

 

Im really confused as to your comment that "bottles have no place." Are you insinuating that moms should exclusively feed from the breast no matter what? That dads/babysitters/grandmas/etc should never feed babies?

post #11 of 246
No place in advertising
post #12 of 246

I'm sure they chose a video of him feeding his daughter while talking about how he'll never smoke because of her is because it's much more intimate. Until he and his wife were more or less forced to make a statement, people had no way of knowing if it was expressed milk or formula. LLL is sounding awfully PETA-like with this. Bottle feeding "doesn't fit in with the message of public health"? Again, what if it were pumped milk? Is that not good enough? PETA is a huge turnoff even to the most devout vegetarians. I know, because I am one. I am a staunch lactivist but will not hesitate to paint LLL with the same brush if this is their new normal. The only way to make positive change is to get people together and educate in a non-confrontational way, and that won't happen if now only BFing moms who never pump a bottle for their DH (or anyone else) to feed the baby now fit the bill of healthy.

 

Also, are we now to villianize pumpers because it's not right from the tap? I know several moms who express enough milk for their partner to do a feeding each night while mom takes a bath or runs to Target. All the dads found it to be a special time. I personally love to see any form of advertising with a loving, gentle father caring for his child. 

post #13 of 246

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

What about babies who have a bad latch in the beginning? Moms who have a hard time making enough milk? People who have jobs? Moms who have more than one kid who needs to eat in the middle of the night?

 

There might be some situations in which it's reasonable to consider a bottle, but these particular examples that you mention are instances in which a solution can usually be found which involves the child breastfeeding rather than bottle feeding. 

 

 

dads/babysitters/grandmas/etc should never feed babies?

They shouldn't feed babies except in a situation in which breastfeeding is impossible.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie View Post

Bottle feeding "doesn't fit in with the message of public health"? 

Correct.

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie View Post

Again, what if it were pumped milk? Is that not good enough?

Breastfeeding is about a lot more than just the milk.  And even if it weren't, breastmilk itself only retains all of its qualities if the child consumes it the moment it emerges from the human nipple.  After that, it starts to lose its qualities, especially if it gets frozen.  Still heaps better than formula, of course, but if the child isn't feeding at the breast, they're not getting everything they're supposed to be getting.

 

 

[Disclaimer:  I am NOT suggesting that pumping mothers not freeze their breastmilk.  Freezing it is better than letting it spoil.  Obviously do not feed your child spoiled milk!]


Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie View Post

Also, are we now to villianize pumpers because it's not right from the tap?

 

It is entirely reasonable for LLL and other lactivists not to want images of bottlefeeding to be promoted.  That does not mean that pumpers are "villainized." 

 

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie View Post

 I personally love to see any form of advertising with a loving, gentle father caring for his child. 

 

 

I'd love to see loving gentle fathers spending time having healthy, positive interactions involving just about anything *other* than feeding the baby.


Edited by Sustainer - 1/25/13 at 1:07pm
post #14 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoopin' Mama View Post


I agree completely and I think this is why so many women are intimidated by the thought of seeking out LLL for support. This is why they are called the "breastfeeding nazis". (FTR I don't condone calling anyone Nazis but actual Nazis).


My local group was a pack of weird nazi's. I ran a new mom's group later in that same community for many years and felt it necessary to warn moms about that particular LLL group and its leaders. Truly unacceptable some of the guilt they laid on me as a new mom trying to finish her college degree. They were going to have me drop out of college and even get a divorce and go on welfare, all so that I could continue to suckle my child whenever she needed to. And btw, I continued nursing that child in spite of their bad advice. It gives me the shivers just to think about 18 years later.

No, I don't care to see bottles but I now work in childcare and many of the bottles I give babies are full of pumped breastmilk. Cool beans.
post #15 of 246

Most moms work. Many dads are SAHDs. feeding is a part of care giving and there's a reason many people cite it as a "benefit" of formula feeding. To jump to conclusions in a 30 second commercial about smoking is ridiculous. Do we know what's in the bottle? (we didn't prior to their announcement). Does his wife work? Things like this turn people off of breastfeeding. I am a huge BF advocate, and stuff like this makes me want to wash my hands of lactivism entirely so that I'm not associated with people who overstep their boundaries. It's equivalent to PETA freaking out about a dog being attached to a chain in the background of a commercial about the benefits of homeownership. Of course, as someone who has put in years of work in college, I'll undoubtedly be one of those moms whose babies get pumped milk on a daily basis. That's the thing...I don't care if pumped milk isn't quite as good as from the tap because I know it's better than formula. The average person who has no strong feelings about breastfeeding certainly isn't going to be encouraged by being told that pumped milk is inferior. It all comes down to the way the message is given. Saying "pumped milk is nutritionally inferior and should only be given when drinking from the breast is impossible" sounds a lot more condescending than "pumping milk for your baby is far superior to formula when feeding directly from the breast isn't possible." 

post #16 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie View Post

Most moms work. Many dads are SAHDs. feeding is a part of care giving and there's a reason many people cite it as a "benefit" of formula feeding. To jump to conclusions in a 30 second commercial about smoking is ridiculous. Do we know what's in the bottle? (we didn't prior to their announcement). Does his wife work? Things like this turn people off of breastfeeding. I am a huge BF advocate, and stuff like this makes me want to wash my hands of lactivism entirely so that I'm not associated with people who overstep their boundaries. It's equivalent to PETA freaking out about a dog being attached to a chain in the background of a commercial about the benefits of homeownership. Of course, as someone who has put in years of work in college, I'll undoubtedly be one of those moms whose babies get pumped milk on a daily basis. That's the thing...I don't care if pumped milk isn't quite as good as from the tap because I know it's better than formula. The average person who has no strong feelings about breastfeeding certainly isn't going to be encouraged by being told that pumped milk is inferior. It all comes down to the way the message is given. Saying "pumped milk is nutritionally inferior and should only be given when drinking from the breast is impossible" sounds a lot more condescending than "pumping milk for your baby is far superior to formula when feeding directly from the breast isn't possible." 

The fact that most American mothers feel that, for financial reasons, they must work outside the home during their baby's first year (and, by the way, the fact that American women only get a few weeks of maternity leave is horrible!), does not mean that we need more images in the media of babies being bottle fed.  The viewer does not know that the bottle *doesn't* contain formula.  The viewer doesn't even think about it.  The image of the bottle fed baby just gets imprinted on their brain, and it trains them to think that the way babies are fed is with a bottle.  Little girls, who will be mothers some day, and need to learn what to do by watching other people, are watching the commercial and being trained to think that the way babies are fed is with a bottle.  It is not in any way "overstepping their boundaries" for a breastfeeding advocacy organization to wish to limit the normalization of bottle feeding.  Yes, pumped milk is much better than formula, but that doesn't mean breastfeeding advocates shouldn't care that pumped milk isn't as good as direct breastfeeding.  The inferiority of pumped milk compared with direct breastfeeding is a fact that should be considered without defensiveness.  Yes, the way the message is given is important.  Direct breastfeeding is the biological norm -- it is what children are meant to have -- so it should be treated as the standard default.  If someone says "pumped milk is inferior to direct breastfeeding and should only be used when direct breastfeeding is impossible" and you hear condescension instead of the simple, straightforward statement that it is, then that is an emotion that you are bringing to it -- you are projecting your own defensiveness.  "Pumping milk for your baby is far superior to formula when feeding directly from the breast isn't possible" is also accurate.

 

http://www.motherchronicle.com/watchyourlanguage.html

post #17 of 246

You know, I guess I could *kinda* see the thought process of LLL being opposed to images of the mom bottlefeeding, but seriously, the dad? The dad is feeding his child. IMO, the image promotes a father caring for his child- something "american moms" could sure use a lot more of. 

post #18 of 246

I donno, I think when your own base (I am speaking of LLL) here starts to say you have gone too far, the organization should probably listen.  I like what someone else said earlier about LLL becoming like PETA.  I agree with that.  Taking extreme positions is never going to help the message and I think they have become too extreme.  They are risking a backlash to the message of breastfeeding all together and I don't like that.  I mean, look here.  I breastfed both my children until they were 3ish years old and I have began to really dislike LLL.  I am sure I am not the only one.  If they are losing someone like me then um, what makes them think they can win the public?  I think it is a question of strategy.  The publicity of what happened with the incident has hurt, not helped, the breastfeeding movement IMHO. 

post #19 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emaye View Post

I donno, I think when your own base (I am speaking of LLL) here starts to say you have gone too far, the organization should probably listen.  I like what someone else said earlier about LLL becoming like PETA.  I agree with that.  Taking extreme positions is never going to help the message and I think they have become too extreme.  They are risking a backlash to the message of breastfeeding all together and I don't like that.  I mean, look here.  I breastfed both my children until they were 3ish years old and I have began to really dislike LLL.  I am sure I am not the only one.  If they are losing someone like me then um, what makes them think they can win the public?  I think it is a question of strategy.  The publicity of what happened with the incident has hurt, not helped, the breastfeeding movement IMHO. 

I totally agree. 

post #20 of 246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sustainer View Post

The fact that most American mothers feel that, for financial reasons, they must work outside the home during their baby's first year (and, by the way, the fact that American women only get a few weeks of maternity leave is horrible!), does not mean that we need more images in the media of babies being bottle fed.  The viewer does not know that the bottle *doesn't* contain formula.  The viewer doesn't even think about it.  The image of the bottle fed baby just gets imprinted on their brain, and it trains them to think that the way babies are fed is with a bottle.  Little girls, who will be mothers some day, and need to learn what to do by watching other people, are watching the commercial and being trained to think that the way babies are fed is with a bottle.  It is not in any way "overstepping their boundaries" for a breastfeeding advocacy organization to wish to limit the normalization of bottle feeding.  Yes, pumped milk is much better than formula, but that doesn't mean breastfeeding advocates shouldn't care that pumped milk isn't as good as direct breastfeeding.  The inferiority of pumped milk compared with direct breastfeeding is a fact that should be considered without defensiveness.  Yes, the way the message is given is important.  Direct breastfeeding is the biological norm -- it is what children are meant to have -- so it should be treated as the standard default.  If someone says "pumped milk is inferior to direct breastfeeding and should only be used when direct breastfeeding is impossible" and you hear condescension instead of the simple, straightforward statement that it is, then that is an emotion that you are bringing to it -- you are projecting your own defensiveness.  "Pumping milk for your baby is far superior to formula when feeding directly from the breast isn't possible" is also accurate.

 

http://www.motherchronicle.com/watchyourlanguage.html

 

Again, this completely alienates a large segment of mothers who not only could benefit from LLL, but need it. Not all women work because they have to. Plenty work for no reason other than they want to. Messages like the one you are supporting are that women should move heaven and earth to make sure they never even give their baby a bottle of pumped milk. The ramifications of that message are huge. Going out for a night with friends? Working, either by choice or necessity? Having an hour alone in the tub while DH feeds baby after you've been touched out? Choosing to EP because you prefer it to nursing? Nope. 

 

Lactivism has made huge strides, and it is SUCH an important movement. However, there are still improvements to be made. Drawing lines in the sand will only make us, as a movement, crumble. Perhaps I'm defensive because I know my personality and know I'm so far from perfect, but sometimes there's a lot to be said about "good enough." If I leave my babe and DH with a few bottles of pumped milk and enjoy a glorious day off with my mom and sister, that is good enough, and good enough is okay.

 

I hate to keep going back to PETA, but the parallels are too striking. PETA maintains that veganism is the best. Period, no stops. And in terms of animal cruelty prevention, veganism is the clear winner. However, this excludes vegetarians (I am one). Where do we fit in? We clearly are miles ahead of the majority of the population in terms of ethical eating. We outnumber vegans immensely. Yet, we feel marginalized because we don't live up to the highest of the elite. Obviously, the utopian ideal in terms of BF is that hospitals encourage it, maternity leave is expanded and employers have on-site daycare that allows for nursing breaks. We can absolutely work towards that. In the meantime though, we live in this world, where very few women provide their babies with only breastmilk and only a fraction of those never use pumped bottles. Alienating them, like PETA has alienated the vegetarians, leads to a fringe movement with a message that seems impossible to most of society.

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