not too happy with this - Page 6

[pek64]

I certainly could have said what I said in a kinder way. I think that LLL and LLL leaders are not the source of the problem. Perhaps LLL attracts long term nursers, and co-sleepers, and the like, and *those* women, having been judged and criticized by others, have a hard time accepting folks who are coming into *their* support group with judgmental attitudes.

Rightkindofme, from your story, the first LLL meeting you attended was to get weaning advice. Those women couldn't know your past, or how hard breastfeeding had been for you. It seems unfair for you to be so angry/hurt that they questioned your reasons for wanting to wean. True, I wasn't there, so I have no idea how uncomfortable you felt, and I'm sorry you felt that way.

I still don't see how LLL could possibly be blamed as an organization. And I wonder how many other bad experiences were similar.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by *GreenMama* 
Again, just to be clear, expressed milk is a wonderful thing and a thousand times better than formula.  The science on what is/might be lost doesn't change that fact, and any mama that takes that time to express her milk to give to her baby shouldn't be made to feel bad. 

 

After reading through this thread, I expected to see some strong, clear evidence about the nutritional loss in expressed milk. I'm not seeing that in the studies and articles I read today. I suspect that the LLL and the WHO and others do not feel that the nutritional inferiority of expressed milk is a desirable or appropriate focus.

This is not directed towards you, however, GM. Earlier in the thread there was some focus on nutrient loss and comments on how it was just chemistry and some "gold standard" stuff...and then a mom saying, "Show me the evidence".  That's how I got on the subject.  

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Perhaps LLL attracts long term nursers, and co-sleepers, and the like, and *those* women, having been judged and criticized by others, have a hard time accepting folks who are coming into *their* support group with judgmental attitudes.

But doesn't volunteering to be a LLL and joining this group kind of obligate someone to be supportive to all mothers? The purpose of the group is not to provide an AP clubhouse, right? 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by pek64 


Read carefully. She said people. It wasn't LLL or a leader, it was the moms attending. LLL cannot be held accountable for the attitudes of attendees. This is why I said I am not believing what I did not experience.

I think that when we post to an online discussion board we are basically agreeing to believe what the other person has to day. Otherwise, there really is no point. So, I choose to believe Rightkindofme and everyone else on this thread. I also think that LLL is an organized meeting format where they surely can be held accountable for meetings that result in a mother feeling unwelcomed and unsupported.  Like GM said, the organization seems to support parent-led weaning and this article is helpful at the same time supportive of the needs of both mother and child: http://www.llli.org/faq/weanhowto.html  This is the type of advice Rightkindofme was right to expect from the meeting. 

But, yes, this does not represent all leaders or the organizaition as a whole. But if these experiences are even a little common place, it is not for the nursing mother to "toughen up" and live with the facts. It is, as others have said, for the organization to tighten up their training and policies. 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

And...sorry, one last thing...

Unlike one of the very many natural childbirth classes/organizations, LLL seems to be one of just a few organizations that shapes global policy for breastfeeding. They are shaping policy for all of us. In a way they are impacting our lives. I think there is where you get folks saying they want to see better or different. And to bring it back to the OP, although I am not a bottle feeding mother, I can see why a breastmilk bottle feeding family could wish to see some change in the policy against bottle imagery. I ALSO see the LLL and WHO's perspective as well. At some point, however, we all want to see breastmilk be the norm to the point where we don't have to worry so much about bottle imagery. Sigh...whenever will that be? 

[pek64]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

But doesn't volunteering to be a LLL and joining this group kind of obligate someone to be supportive to all mothers? The purpose of the group is not to provide an AP clubhouse, right? 

I'm saying that it is understandable that there may be a bit of resistance to changing the group into one that supports working, pumping moms while slighting stay-at-home, direct nursing moms. If this thread is any indication, embracing working and pumping seems to be expected by those who do it. I'm all for supporting all nursing relationships, but an adversarial attitude is likely to get an adversarial attitude.

[frioct3]

It is horrible how some people have been treated by LLL leaders and/or other moms at meetings. But just because a few people have had issues doesn't mean there is a problem with the entire organization. I know in my group while the leaders all STRONGLY believe that child led weaning is best, if a mother has chosen a different time to wean they are supported. My group says that it is their job to support mothers meet their own personal nursing goals. I have not seen them do anything but.

And I don't think anyone can be mad that a group meets during the day. This isn't a sign that working moms aren't welcome, but that the volunteers who run that group find it a more convenient time to give their time.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by pek64 

I certainly could have said what I said in a kinder way. I think that LLL and LLL leaders are not the source of the problem. Perhaps LLL attracts long term nursers, and co-sleepers, and the like, and *those* women, having been judged and criticized by others, have a hard time accepting folks who are coming into *their* support group with judgmental attitudes.
Rightkindofme, from your story, the first LLL meeting you attended was to get weaning advice. Those women couldn't know your past, or how hard breastfeeding had been for you. It seems unfair for you to be so angry/hurt that they questioned your reasons for wanting to wean. True, I wasn't there, so I have no idea how uncomfortable you felt, and I'm sorry you felt that way.
I still don't see how LLL could possibly be blamed as an organization. And I wonder how many other bad experiences were similar.

Given that I spent today at the park with the person who was the former leader of that group and her response was, "Oh that was so and so. Yes, she does that a lot." She was a leader.

So uhm, yeah.

[pek64]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

I think that when we post to an online discussion board we are basically agreeing to believe what the other person has to day. Otherwise, there really is no point. So, I choose to believe Rightkindofme and everyone else on this thread. I also think that LLL is an organized meeting format where they surely can be held accountable for meetings that result in a mother feeling unwelcomed and unsupported.  Like GM said, the organization seems to support parent-led weaning and this article is helpful at the same time supportive of the needs of both mother and child: http://www.llli.org/faq/weanhowto.html  This is the type of advice Rightkindofme was right to expect from the meeting. 

But, yes, this does not represent all leaders or the organizaition as a whole. But if these experiences are even a little common place, it is not for the nursing mother to "toughen up" and live with the facts. It is, as others have said, for the organization to tighten up their training and policies. 

I agree that we are agreeing to believe what is said, but with certain reservations. Posts have been negative toward LLL as an organization, and now we are seeing that members, not leaders, have been conveying attitudes. What I'm saying is, I accept what is said with a grain of salt.

As for getting support, we don't know what else happened in that meeting. Did the leader try to provide the requested support? Was rightkindofme so upset that she couldn't hear the support? I can understand being upset. Really, I can. The breastfeeding support group I went to when my son was a baby was more supportive of working moms. There I was, on the receiving end of rejection and criticism from my family for "wasting my education", being dropped by my friends who couldn't relate to me anymore, because "we didn't have anything in common", and feeling totally confused by the verbal and psychological abuse from my husband who had said he supported my desire to quit my job and become a stay-at-home mom, but clearly didn't, and when I asked at a meeting how others handled criticism of becoming a stay-at-home mom, I was told "just go back to work; why wouldn't you want to" by the members. The leader did what she could to redirect, but it was difficult. I don't blame her, or even the moms, for the responses. They were coming from a different experience.

Support groups are comprised of individuals, with differing backgrounds as well as goals. It is unreasonable to expect the group to instantly mold itself to a single new member. I am saying that our own problems should not prevent us from also showing compassion to others. And that includes members of a support group, who are untrained individuals, trying to help others. Some can give good advice and help, while others stumble along. A certain amount of forgiveness is needed by all.

[rightkindofme]

No actually this was a leader. And the person who left this specific group as leader "because it was too cult-like" said that she isn't surprised by my experiences.

I have still said over and over that I recommend the group. I tell people to go there.

Really it was ironic and wonderful to go hang out with the former leader today given this argument. It felt so validating.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by pek64 


I'm saying that it is understandable that there may be a bit of resistance to changing the group into one that supports working, pumping moms while slighting stay-at-home, direct nursing moms.

Is slighting the word you meant to use here? If so, I don't think supporting more moms means you need to slight the ones you already support. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by pek64 


If this thread is any indication, embracing working and pumping seems to be expected by those who do it

I am not a WOH mom or a bottle feeding mom but I do expect our global and national breastfeeding advocacy groups to embrace working and pumping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pek64 I'm all for supporting all nursing relationships, but an adversarial attitude is likely to get an adversarial attitude.

I did not get the impression that Rightkindofme or any other moms entered a LLL support meeting with an adversarial attitude. I feel a little like this is reaching for blame. 

I really believe the most supportive reaction to these stories (both the the mother AND to LLL) is to trust the mother, tell her that her experience does not represent LLL and give more information about how she should have been treated according to LLL's own policies. 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by pek64 

 I am saying that our own problems should not prevent us from also showing compassion to others. And that includes members of a support group, who are untrained individuals, trying to help others. Some can give good advice and help, while others stumble along. A certain amount of forgiveness is needed by all.

Yes, agreed that a certain amount of forgiveness is needed. Volunteer operations are just that. I DO think that women should only volunteer if they have a certain aptitude to put their own biases aside and be supportive of a great, wide range of parenting choices while maintaining the core goals of their organization. And that LLL should absolutely provide training, which I'm sure they do. Here is the link to what appears to be fairly extensive training: http://www.llli.org/faq/leader.html

[pek64]

At this point, I am simply wishing all a happy new year!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by pek64 

At this point, I am simply wishing all a happy new year!

 Happy new year to you too, Pek!  

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by pek64 

At this point, I am simply wishing all a happy new year!

Happy New Year :)

[IdentityCrisisMama]

[philomom]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

I did not get the impression that Rightkindofme or any other moms entered a LLL support meeting with an adversarial attitude. I feel a little like this is reaching for blame. 

Thank you. I went to my local group for help and left in tears. I was not adversarial. Some folks were victim blaming with that one.

[pickle18]

Thank you for the links, IdentityCrisisMama!  I always appreciate more information.  To me, the WHO hierarchy of feeding options seems pretty common sensical (seeing as how the feeding methods mentioned involve greater and greater removal from breastfeeding at the actual breast) and is often referred to in similar publications, so I hadn't dug deeper for scientific studies supporting the idea.

I read the links you posted, but most were consistently concerned with bacterial contamination and the safety of alternate methods of feeding...not so much the nutritional or immunological aspects.  The only place I noticed they mentioned anything about this was in regard to microwaving.

The first link below is a general list of just a few of the added benefits of breastfeeding at the actual breast, that I was referring to in my acceptance of breastfeeding as "the gold standard" - obviously, as in the article you cited, I agree that breastmilk is always, in any form, the gold standard as compared to formula.  I also fully recognize that expressed milk is an awesome option for many mothers.  

In the interest of information and viewing all sides of the issue, here are some other factors to consider (including proper oral development, improved immunology, risk of overfeeding, easy opportunity for skin-to-skin contact, etc.)... 

http://nativemothering.com/2012/04/are-there-differences-between-breastfeeding-directly-and-bottle-feeding-expressed-milk/

I'm sure there are other studies on the psychological/emotional benefits but I haven't had time to search.

A really quick search did return these...

Effect of storage on breast milk antioxidant activity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15499145

(notes that "antioxidant activity at both refrigeration and freezing temperatures was significantly decreased" - and that refrigeration is preferable to freezing, shorter storage is preferable to longer, etc.) <---all of which is really just an extension of the logical "hierarchy" we've been discussing - the closer to straight from the tap, the better!

Total Antioxidant Concentrations of Breastmilk—An Eye-opener to the Negligent (note: I did not make this title up, nor do I endorse it!)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3259723/

(notes effect of refrigeration and freezing on total antioxidant concentrations of breastmilk - see Table 3)

And this one shows that the potential impacts go beyond storage, to methods of delivery which may further compromise nutrition...

Comparative analysis of ascorbic acid in human milk and infant formula using varied milk delivery systems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2526073/

(notes varying degrees of decline in Vitamin C concentration during bottle-feeding due to oxidation)

[*GreenMama*]

Happy New Year, Ladies!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Pickle, for some reason my quote feature isn't working. I wanted to say thanks for the links and I'll read through them when I'm nursing. ;-)  My links were what they were because someone asked for some links from folks making claims about nutrient loss and none were given...and I got curious. I went to go-to sites. WHO, LLL, Kellymom and didn't find much to indicate that it should be a main focus. I also went looking for the WHO hierarchy of feeding and couldn't find it in the link GM provided. Can you link that too?  

And, btw, I wasn't disputing the other benefits of feeding from the breast. But, that wasn't what was being discussed earlier. I'll quote what got me on this tangent if my quote feature starts working again.