not too happy with this - Page 8

[rightkindofme]

Given that I am friends with the former leader of the meeting I attended and her opinion is that the people there are shaming, dogmatic, and overly aggressive with mothers--and that is her opinion after being a leader for two years and just an attendee for a long time before that--I'm going to continue to be unimpressed by your attitude here.

I think that strongly implying that people who don't want to live in a trailer forever so they can nurse as long as their child wants is a bit extreme. If you don't agree, well you have different priorities.

And I nursed for more than four years straight including through a pregnancy and tandem nursing for almost a year. In the "mainstream view" I'm already an extremist lactivist. I just don't see the need to treat my own insane priorities like something that someone else has to share or I will judge them negatively. There was a high cost to my physical and emotional well being. *FOR ME* it was worth doing. I don't look down on other people for not being up to what I did.

Edited by rightkindofme - 1/8/13 at 6:31am

[Imakcerka]

Sustainer

I will be pumping and my husband will be bottle feeding our new bb while I work and he stays home.  The bond between PARENT and child is important.  Very very important.  I can't fathom how you can say only a mother is really sufficient.  Is very unfair and completely wrong.  Either parent can form the strong bond.  Hopefully both can do it and I think it's important for new parents to understand that.  A fathers importance does NOT stop at conception.  That leaves women in a terrible place and takes away from how important it is for both parents to be involved.

[glassesgirlnj]

Another mom here who is WOH while my (genderqueer, male-bodied) spouse is the primary caregiver.  Totally agree with Imakcerka's comments about the gender essentialism on this thread!

In my case, I attempted to EBF for the first week before my daughter was hospitalized with dehydration and jaundice.  After getting her lab results back, my pediatrician sent a police officer to our door (I wish I was kidding) to tell us that she needed to be taken to the ER, immediately, and supplemented with formula every couple hours.

Once she was safely back home again, and after two ICBLCs and a postpartum doula, my daughter became a formula fed baby. She's now 90th percentile for height, 80th for weight, and strong and healthy as a horse.  I believe she would have died if I had continued to EBF.

I know my case isn't the norm, but it's one point of anecdata, anyway...

[Imakcerka]

WOW glasses I'm sorry you guys had to go through that.  Glad to hear things are going well now. 

[glassesgirlnj]

Thanks, Imakcerka!  I think I'm *just* starting to get over the PPPTSD from that whole experience, which is why I'm beginning to post about it now...

Apologies if I derailed the thread for anyone else!

[pek64]

Being considerate of the mother's feelings has to include those mothers who have made financial sacrifices because they believed those sacrifices were in the best interests of *their* children, and stop assuming that a mom who says "we live in a trailer rather than me getting a job" is *not* saying!"all moms must make similar choices".

And I'm not even sure Nature intended us to have words, so I'm not going to worry if Nature intended us to have the word 'father'.

[GoestoShow]

In this picture this particular dad is feeding his daughter formula.

Because she is severely allergic to dairy.

She can't drink breastmilk. If she can't drink breastmilk, but formula is evil, then what was this baby supposed to eat?

Why is bottlefeeding a baby ALLERGIC TO DAIRY inconsistent with the message that breastfeeding is the best option overall? It isn't.

This story is also old enough that I'm sure this baby has moved on to sippy cups.

I think now we should debate the merits of straw cups vs the traditional sippy top vs open cup options? Most speech pathologists agree that straw cups are best for proper tongue placement for speech. Spout tops inhibit proper tongue placement. Therefore all spout tops are bad and should never be used because children will not learn to speak as they should by drinking from spout tops.

[Imakcerka]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Being considerate of the mother's feelings has to include those mothers who have made financial sacrifices because they believed those sacrifices were in the best interests of *their* children, and stop assuming that a mom who says "we live in a trailer rather than me getting a job" is *not* saying!"all moms must make similar choices".
And I'm not even sure Nature intended us to have words, so I'm not going to worry if Nature intended us to have the word 'father'.

Or mother...

[erinmattsmom88]

I think it's rather ridiculous to tell a newly breastfeeding mother or one who is pregnant that only the mother can feed her child... especially when it is coming from an organization that is supposed to be supportive. From what I understand, LLL is not like this. However, it seems that some who represent it or have represented it see this differently. Yes, only women have the anatomy to be pregnant and breastfeed, but limiting choices by excluding help or bonding opportunities from other members of the family, especially to first-time mothers is irresponsible. Hearing this can overwhelm a new mother and perhaps scare her off from the whole experience. That to me is not being a good "lactivist". No one else can feed the baby other than Mom? Just because nature created the mother-child bond that no one else can have? I know from my first pregnancy and experience with a newborn, that I was learning on the fly, adjusting to having a baby and everything that goes along with it, was tired, stressed out, and believe me, I accepted any help that I could get. That included having DH feed the baby when I needed to take a nap, shower, brush my teeth, have a cup of coffee... alone... so I could recharge. Whatever the case was, doesn't matter. It was pumped BM in a bottle. I don't regret it. Everyone who has breastfed a child here knows that the first 3-4 months is extreme feeding on demand. What I mean by that is, the baby is feeding every 1-2 hours and really, that's all you have time to do. Pumping a few bottles of BM so that someone else can feed the baby so Mama can take a much needed break is perfectly OK to do. I rarely to never got the luxury of that, but some may and that is OK. Giving the perception that it is not is wrong.

I also don't like reading about the heirarchy of breastmilk. The tap is better than pumped. Well, that may be and I did both, but the language on here hasn't all been supportive of the choice between the two. Providing facts to someone on this subject is necessary so Mom can be fully informed, but the delivery has to be a positive and supportive one. With my second child, I had no choice and had to exclusively pump in the beginning. He had a medical emergency one minute after birth, and was taken away to the NICU before I got out of my c-section surgery. I saw his little face for a nanosecond. He was tube fed after the first 36 hours after nothing at all, and I had to pump exclusively during this time. Once he was allowed to begin eating, it was from a tube... alone (most of the time)... in the NICU... administered by someone other than me. I didn't overthink the fact that he was getting pumped versus directly from the breast milk because my main concern was that he get healthy. I never did once hear someone criticize me for the delivery of my milk to my son from anyone. I had full support of the nurses, doctors and lactation consultants. After a few days we tried to feed directly from the breast and much to my relief, he did great and was an immediate pro at it.

Providing the latest, objective, complete and correct information to someone who seeks it is the best thing. Once opinions and negativity are added to the mix, it sours the experience. Usually someone who is seeking out information about successful breastfeeding is having problems and needs help. I was that person once. If someone told me that if I didn't only feed from the breast because pumping is not as good, or that only I can feed the baby no one else, then I would have been overwhelmed, sad, and felt like I was alone. It is not ok to exclude other famly members from helping caring for a newborn when the Mom needs help. I admit that feeding the baby should be the last thing that someone else should do, but at the same time, sometimes it has to happen and that's just the way it is.

[pek64]

Originally Posted by GoestoShow 

In this picture this particular dad is feeding his daughter formula.

Because she is severely allergic to dairy.

She can't drink breastmilk. If she can't drink breastmilk, but formula is evil, then what was this baby supposed to eat?

Why is bottlefeeding a baby ALLERGIC TO DAIRY inconsistent with the message that breastfeeding is the best option overall? It isn't.

This story is also old enough that I'm sure this baby has moved on to sippy cups.

I think now we should debate the merits of straw cups vs the traditional sippy top vs open cup options? Most speech pathologists agree that straw cups are best for proper tongue placement for speech. Spout tops inhibit proper tongue placement. Therefore all spout tops are bad and should never be used because children will not learn to speak as they should by drinking from spout tops.

No disrespect intended, but what picture? I'm missing something. What story?

[rightkindofme]

This thread started talking about the picture of a father bottle feeding his child in a stop smoking ad.

[frioct3]

LLL isn't perfect, but they are certainly right to try and encourage more public images of breastfeeding and fewer of bottle feeding. This doesn't mean that bottle feeding is bad, but that until breastfeeding in public is normal and not shamed we should be doing everything we can to normalize it.

Originally Posted by GoestoShow 

In this picture this particular dad is feeding his daughter formula.

Because she is severely allergic to dairy.

She can't drink breastmilk. If she can't drink breastmilk, but formula is evil, then what was this baby supposed to eat?

Why is bottlefeeding a baby ALLERGIC TO DAIRY inconsistent with the message that breastfeeding is the best option overall? It isn't.

For this particular family it seems like formula is the best (only?) choice. But by just viewing the ad the public doesnt know that. All they see is another image of bottle feeding

[GoestoShow]

Originally Posted by frioct3 

LLL isn't perfect, but they are certainly right to try and encourage more public images of breastfeeding and fewer of bottle feeding. This doesn't mean that bottle feeding is bad, but that until breastfeeding in public is normal and not shamed we should be doing everything we can to normalize it.
For this particular family it seems like formula is the best (only?) choice. But by just viewing the ad the public doesnt know that. All they see is another image of bottle feeding is a dad feeding his daughter sweetly. FTFY.

[erinmattsmom88]

Just curious... what was the picture changed to?

[GoestoShow]

Near as I remember that part was edited out completely and he didn't appear in the ad in the end.

This picture was never in the released ad.
 

[erinmattsmom88]

It would be interesting to hear what the other half of the parenting equation has to say about all this. I wonder what the Dad in the picture thinks about the uproar the picture feeding his kid with a bottle has made. Again, just curious.

[GoestoShow]

He's Piri Weepu, a really famous New Zealander football player.

He was really clear about how he felt about this ad.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10826271
 

[erinmattsmom88]

Thanks for that link.

[pek64]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

This thread started talking about the picture of a father bottle feeding his child in a stop smoking ad.

That much I understood, but I didn't realize there was a story behind the father and baby.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Oh, so good to be back to the OP (and I know that I was totally off topic myself...the whole time. ). Although as equality in the work place becomes a reality in more and more parts of the world and in areas of the world with political and cultural issues that require women to work outside of the home, I really do think that organizations like LLL will decide on some advocacy campaigns that specifically target the issue of EBM and perhaps even donor milk.  Where I agree with the folks who agree with LLL's advice about this ad is that this was a somewhat passive image. This wasn't a pro-EBM ad, yk?  

When you comb through the LLL site they do give me an impression that they are subtly in favor of a woman staying home with her babies. But they don't come right out and say that, probably because that would loose them quite a bit of support and funding. 

I don't know...

This issue is so bundled up in so many other things. Certainly worker's rights for breastfeeding mothers. The issue of going back to work has been over simplified on this thread a bit. It's a hugely complicated issue and it's one that the States doesn't do well with at all. Sigh.  

Then there is the ad and the fact that this is a professional athlete - they do carry so much influence. When I first read the article I thought the family lived in New Jersey (the baby's name is NJ). I think New Zealand had a lot to consider that's probably quite different than what would have gone into the decision in the States. I wonder if in the States the trade off of bottle imagery would have been a good trade off for the very powerful image of a male pro-athlete caring for his child. 

What this thread and reading the LLL articles from over the years has made me want to do more than anything is be a fly on the wall of some of their decision making processes. For the few issues I take with them, it is clear that a great deal of thought has gone into how they promote their advocacy. Some of us "big picture" people may take some issues with them on some things but I am glad that we have an international group that is focused on this one, very specific and important thing.