IdentityCrisisMama- No hard feelings. I was just worried that you were going to give me the boot or something! I'm sorry that my posts are so long.
rightkindofme- I still say that mothering is a career: the only difference is that the pay isn't in money. There are many careers that are not based on formal education. But if you don't consider it a career, that's fine.
Group hug! 
IdentityCrisisMama- No hard feelings. I was just worried that you were going to give me the boot or something!
Oh, my goodness gracious...no! I'm a new moderator and this is my first debate style thread I've posted as a member in since having that fancy tag next to my user name. I did come to this thread early on as a moderator (that's how I got interested) but I have not posted as a moderator since I joined the discussion. You can count on that. If there had been an issue for moderation, I would have asked someone else to handle it because of how personally involved I was. And, YES, as a moderator, you would not have been a focus at all (no one would have been from what I can recall). Not at all, really and 100%! I can't stress that enough. I'm sorry if that was a concern - I should have made that clear early on.
Sustainer, thanks for clarifying some things. I do recall asking for that in my last post that I responded to you directly. I now have more information to go on as to why you feel the way you do about certain things, so it makes more sense... even though I don't agree with you... on some things. Can I find a reason to say *things* again? Anyway, I have moved on from the debating, and am focusing my attention on learning more of the science of everything on this thread, as it interests me. Long before kids, I began a bachelors degree program in dietetics/nutrition with hopes of continuing on for a masters, but never finished. I think I was just over school, as three years prior to that, I graduated with a BS in education. Anyway, nutrition is of great interest to me and I am wanting to learn more.
I didn't comment on this because I didn't have my "mod hat" on when I was posting but I wanted to mention that this is the expectation of MDC as well and it's outlined in our UA.
On the subject of wet-nurses and fathers this author was recommended on my evolution spin-off thread and I think it's excellent! A definite must read for those interested in the subject. http://www.cogsci.ucsd.edu/classes/WI12/COGS1/readings/04-COGS1_Deak-Social_Infant_Hrdy_2001.pdf
Skycheattraffic, I think you would be an excellent LLL leader!
IdentityCrisisMama- No hard feelings. I was just worried that you were going to give me the boot or something! I'm sorry that my posts are so long.
rightkindofme- I still say that mothering is a career: the only difference is that the pay isn't in money. There are many careers that are not based on formal education. But if you don't consider it a career, that's fine.
Group hug!
I don't consider it a career. Most of us, male and female, have a career in addition to parenting. Of course, we share the parenting rather than seeing it as exclusive to one parent.
Again, this completely alienates a large segment of mothers who not only could benefit from LLL, but need it. Not all women work because they have to. Plenty work for no reason other than they want to. Messages like the one you are supporting are that women should move heaven and earth to make sure they never even give their baby a bottle of pumped milk. The ramifications of that message are huge. Going out for a night with friends? Working, either by choice or necessity? Having an hour alone in the tub while DH feeds baby after you've been touched out? Choosing to EP because you prefer it to nursing? Nope.
Lactivism has made huge strides, and it is SUCH an important movement. However, there are still improvements to be made. Drawing lines in the sand will only make us, as a movement, crumble. Perhaps I'm defensive because I know my personality and know I'm so far from perfect, but sometimes there's a lot to be said about "good enough." If I leave my babe and DH with a few bottles of pumped milk and enjoy a glorious day off with my mom and sister, that is good enough, and good enough is okay.
I hate to keep going back to PETA, but the parallels are too striking. PETA maintains that veganism is the best. Period, no stops. And in terms of animal cruelty prevention, veganism is the clear winner. However, this excludes vegetarians (I am one). Where do we fit in? We clearly are miles ahead of the majority of the population in terms of ethical eating. We outnumber vegans immensely. Yet, we feel marginalized because we don't live up to the highest of the elite. Obviously, the utopian ideal in terms of BF is that hospitals encourage it, maternity leave is expanded and employers have on-site daycare that allows for nursing breaks. We can absolutely work towards that. In the meantime though, we live in this world, where very few women provide their babies with only breastmilk and only a fraction of those never use pumped bottles. Alienating them, like PETA has alienated the vegetarians, leads to a fringe movement with a message that seems impossible to most of society.
I apologize that I have not yet read this very long thread, but these two posts from page 1 popped out at me. While I totally understand the sentiments, the one benefit I do see of LLL or any other organization being uncompromising on what they see as the one true path, so to speak, is that it doesn't muddy the waters. I think, for example, of the American Heart Association or the USDA and their food recommendations. When studies have been done on the "heart healthy" diets that they recommend, they usually come out showing that these diets do not make a significant difference in preventing or reversing heart disease. Why is that? It is because they haven't recommended what they know to be true: you can't just reduce transfats, processed foods, etc. and still eat the amounts they are saying are "okay." More radical changes are what is really needed to make a true difference in health outcomes. However, they never go so far as to say that for fear that it will turn people off or be too radical and that no one will do it.
The end result is that people feel that diet doesn't matter in blood pressure, cholesterol, heart disease risk, etc. and that some people are just genetically programmed to need to medicate themselves to control these things. That generally isn't true. Sure, there are people whose genes make it harder, but if AHA and the USDA were at least being honest, it wouldn't muddy the waters so much.
I have to appreciate that LLL and, yes even PETA, are straightforward with their messages. They don't hedge and say what will make those who do things half way feel okay about it and they offend and are maybe too rigid, but they are at least honest about what is "best."
I absolutely agree. I feel like this is an undercurrent of this thread...
"Oh, EBM isn't good enough, because it's not as good as breastfeeding at the breast? Ok, so I'm a crappy mother because I pump and WOH. Now I'm feeling insulted, so let me fight back and tell you that I don't think what you do is a real career - I'm twice the parent, because I have a career AND I parent, too!"
Emotions run high on these kinds of things and leaps are taken, I get that. I've said it about five times, but I think feeding facts are just that (and I'm open to hearing more evidence on this) - not mothering judgments, in any way shape or form. I believe mothers can weigh pros and cons and make the best decisions for their families (and that that very well might be EBM).
In the spirit of respecting each others' choices, I think it is out of line to denounce mothering as "not a career." I absolutely take it seriously as a career - it is a "field I want to excel in" to the best of my ability. I spend my days actively engaged in that pursuit morning, noon and night, and it includes at least as much planning, focus, researching and reading as I was consumed by in law school. I'm not sure by what definition it would not qualify, but I do find this assertion to be insulting. It's not a career everyone wants to pursue - fine. I can absolutely agree to that. Likewise, I am ok with hearing SAHM's say they don't personally consider what they do a career, by their own definition...
I'm twice the parent, because I have a career AND I parent, too!"
I don't think anyone on here feels like that.
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Some of do consider mothering to be a career. We deserve just as much respect as those with a career outside of parenting. I, for one, do not feel that respect in this thread.
I think you and Pek64 are being overly sensitive here. I am a SAHM too, and I didn't get that this person is saying she is twice a parent because she is a mother and has a "career", which usually when people say career they are indicating a job outside the home for which they are paid for or volunteer for. Perhaps choli should come back and clarify.
Taken from Wikipedia... "Career is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as a person's "course or progress through life (or a distinct portion of life)".
It can also pertain to an occupation or a profession that usually involves special training or formal education,[1] and is considered to be a person’s lifework."
Mother, father, teacher, nurse, electrical engineer, daycare worker, doctor, lawyer, artist all fall under this category of "career" according to this definition.
So, being a mother can be a career, a job, one's life work, a way of life, a dedication to one's family, whatever. I think that no matter what you call it, everyone here can agree that it's the most important __________ (add what you like here) anyone will ever have. The fact that we are all here on this thread, and others, learning, giving advice, disagreeing and agreeing with each other with high emotion, shows we all take these roles very seriously. Thank goodness we are not the opposite of that.
This would make a great spin-off.
I think that if someone says *they* don't think that mothering is a career, perhaps because they consider it to have another equally important title, doesn't necessarily mean that *you* are wrong because *you* call it a career... on this thread and on mothering.com. Now, take these comments and ideas out into the general public and you may be right, as there are a**holes out there who do not consider staying home with children valuable enough to be categorized as a career. The men I know aren't like that, but I can bet my life that they are out there, same goes for women.
Yeah, you're right. The double standard on this thread is offensive.
Good thing I just know I'm over sensitive. 
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I think you and Pek64 are being overly sensitive here.
I don't think they are. And I think that contention is a bit ironic after all the oversensitivity that has come from the other side.
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I am a SAHM too, and I didn't get that this person is saying she is twice a parent because she is a mother and has a "career", which usually when people say career they are indicating a job outside the home for which they are paid for or volunteer for.
People seem to be taking pains to come up with a definition of "career" that would exclude Stay at Home Mothering, and yet it isn't really succeeding. Since you just said that a career can be on a volunteer basis, that means that the fact that a mother doesn't make money by mothering doesn't disqualify it from being a career. And as far as jobs being "outside the home," what about writers and other people who work from home?
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More than one person has said that they don't consider it a career. Also, others have implied the same thing by saying "some people are mothers *and* they have a career."
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I think that if someone says *they* don't think that mothering is a career, perhaps because they consider it to have another equally important title, doesn't necessarily mean that *you* are wrong because *you* call it a career... on this thread and on mothering.com.
The people drawing a distinction between mothering and "real" careers don't always give me the feeling that they think mothering qualifies as something *equal* to a career. There's an undertone that stay at home mothering is somehow "less than" or a betrayal of feminism or a waste of talents or education -- or that it drags down society financially. Or that motherhood should be more like other relationships -- friendships -- dating -- things that are "on the side" or otherwise not the core of one's life.
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