not too happy with this - Page 3

[pek64]

How did this turn into generalized LLL bashing?

It is possible that someone can genuinely *feel* like she was told "you aren't trying hard enough", "you should/must quit your job", or "you can't give your child someone else's milk", and have the actual words be "many problems can be overcome with extra effort", "at that pay, you'll be paying for daycare and extra eating out only", and "giving your child someone else's milk will mean a reduction in benefits for both you and your child". Information is needed to make good decisions. I would want to hear the truth, no matter how much it conflicts with what I want, in order to make a good decision. And of course LLL looks for empassioned women to be leaders! How can one devote the kind of time being a leader requires without the passion? And how can a mother who is determined to breastfeed get the help she is looking for if the "leader" responds with a "There's always someone else's milk, or formula. You don't have to keep trying." attitude?

[*GreenMama*]

Pek64 and sustainer took the words out of my mouth. I am saddened that once it was proven that at the very least LLL had a different and completely plausible explanation for the media-induced controversy that this thread went to bashing all things LLL.

Let me say this- there are MANY LLL Leaders and active group members on mothering.com. The Leaders most likely will not out themselves, because once they do everything they say might erroneously be taken as coming from LLL, even if it's just the leader-mama asking advice or giving her own personal opinion on vaccinations, politics, circumcision, religion, milk-sharing ,etc. LLL tries to avoid this because they have one focus and don't want moms getting the idea that if they don't agree with a Leader's own family choices, political affiliation, etc that they aren't welcome or can't receive help.

Peggy O'Mara, the founder of Mothering was an LLL Leader for many years.

I am truly sad and feel complete empathy for anyone who has had a bad experience with an organization, whether it be LLL, HMN, API, etc. Please consider not throwing the baby out with the bath water by suggesting that all Leaders and groups of a particular organization are horrible people that routinely make women cry and attempt to force their opinions on them. It just isn't fair or true, and it isn't in the spirit of mothering.com.

[MichelleZB]

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a breastfeeding advocacy organization would opine, when asked, that it would be best not to normalize bottlefeeding in a public health ad. This doesn't seem that extreme to me. I wonder where all the vitriol in this thread is coming from.

[rightkindofme]

I said, "Every LLL is defined by the people in that location. LLL very deliberately hunts for very impassioned people." and that turned into people complaining that this is a general bashing LLL thread? Really. Yeah. Ok, I'll move on with my life.

[Alenushka]

Of course bottle and fathers have place in feeding of infants. If it was not for bottles, my husband and dad I would ahve never graduated from college and I would be making $7.50 in hour. How great would that be for my kids? Not so much.

Yes, hooray to bottles and dad who feed.

Plus, it was nice sometime just to take a nap.  I love pumps! My Medela allowed me to have a life and not feel like a nursing mammal all the time.

[frioct3]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a breastfeeding advocacy organization would opine, when asked, that it would be best not to normalize bottlefeeding in a public health ad. This doesn't seem that extreme to me. I wonder where all the vitriol in this thread is coming from.

Totally agree with this!

[savithny]

My husband and I split shifts when #1 was an infant.  I worked half-time, until noon, while DS stayed home with Daddy.   

Daddy fed him bottles.   Of breastmilk.   Neither of my kids ever had a drop of formula, and I worked hard to make that happen.   And DS was happy and comfortable with his daddy.  Taking his daily bottle.  From Dad.  Of breastmilk.

Without me working at that time, we would not have had health insurance.     If I'd quit that job and had to find a new one later, I would have lost valuable contact time with my employer, leaving me probably working for much less money in much worse conditions right now.   I don't regret working for a minute.  I don't regret pumping and bottlefeeding my children part-time.   

I do regret calling LLL in my area to try to find a meeting, because I was told they didn't have any meetings any other day than weekday mornings, and that helping women figure out working  and breastfeeding was not a goal the organization was interesting in supporting.  Fortunately, I found online help with the issues I was having with pumping, and was able to be successful -- but it was absolutely no thanks to LLL.  I was feeling great about being able to negotiate part-time work with benefits, until I called LLL and was directly told that I was Mothering Wrong

[pek64]

The point is -- the ad did not have the purpose of supporting pumping breastmilk for bottles!! And people on the fence about breastfeeding were likely to see the ad, and might jump to the conclusion that the department of health was in favor of formula feeding! LLL was *one* organization of *several* organizations that was asked to review the ad before it aired. They recommended that a tiny alteration be made to avoid confusion concerning the health department's stand on formula feeding. The ad was about *smoking*, *not* breastfeeding, pumping, bottle feeding dads, grandparents or LLL!!!

Congrats to dads who fed bottles of breastmilk to their babies, and to the moms who pumped, as well as those who only nursed. We should be supporting each other in breastfeeding, not trying to compete over whose way is best!

[Emaye]

There is no vitriol here.  This is a conversation about a breastfeeding organization at a breastfeeding board.  We all have a stake on it.  From a public relation perspective, I think the LLL has a problem.  If its supporters are having to defend it to members of the public (us) who theoretically agree with its basic mission, then I think the organization should check itself, no?  Otherwise, it risks becoming marginalized.  Hence the apt comparison to PETA.  Not too many people take PETA seriously anymore.  I feel like there is a backlash building against the LLL. This should concern the organization.  

If this doesn't matter -- if it believes that the many women that are voicing their concerns and sharing their experiences don't need to be considered -- by all means the LLL can carry on until oblivion.   It is a 'see the forest for the trees' kinda of situation, me thinks.  

[ModerateMom]

Originally Posted by Sustainer 

Mothers could sure use a lot more of fathers helping out with anything *other* than feeding.  Babies need to be fed by their mothers.

Some babies don't have mothers.  Some babies don't have biological mothers.  Some babies have mothers who can't produce enough breastmilk.  Some babies have mothers who work.  Some babies have mothers who have psychological reasons that they can't nurse.

Babies need to be fed.  Period. 

[pek64]

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Edited by pek64 - 12/22/12 at 9:06pm

[philomom]

Originally Posted by savithny 

My husband and I split shifts when #1 was an infant.  I worked half-time, until noon, while DS stayed home with Daddy.   

Daddy fed him bottles.   Of breastmilk.   Neither of my kids ever had a drop of formula, and I worked hard to make that happen.   And DS was happy and comfortable with his daddy.  Taking his daily bottle.  From Dad.  Of breastmilk.

Without me working at that time, we would not have had health insurance.     If I'd quit that job and had to find a new one later, I would have lost valuable contact time with my employer, leaving me probably working for much less money in much worse conditions right now.   I don't regret working for a minute.  I don't regret pumping and bottlefeeding my children part-time.   

I do regret calling LLL in my area to try to find a meeting, because I was told they didn't have any meetings any other day than weekday mornings, and that helping women figure out working  and breastfeeding was not a goal the organization was interesting in supporting.  Fortunately, I found online help with the issues I was having with pumping, and was able to be successful -- but it was absolutely no thanks to LLL.  I was feeling great about being able to negotiate part-time work with benefits, until I called LLL and was directly told that I was Mothering Wrong

Thanks for your post. Every time I say something anti- LLL on MDC ... I get slammed. Even though I have friends in other parts of the country who also had run ins similar to mine with the LLL groups in their areas.

As I said, these ladies were going to have me quit college, get divorced and get on welfare rather than pump or supplement for my child. What happened to empowering women? What happened to valuing intact families with involved, loving dads?

BTW, I did manage to breastfeed that child til she was two in spite of their "support".

[ModerateMom]

Originally Posted by pek64 
Admin note: Quoted post edited

Well, thanks.  I'm having a great holiday season, though, so you don't need to be concerned.

It is not a criticism of anyone to say that babies need to be fed, regardless of their circumstances.  Quite the opposite.  I'm trying to support mothers who for whatever reason can't exclusively breastfeed -- or breastfeed at all -- and are often made to feel terrible about it.  Babies need to be fed and loved.  If that means a bottle, then so be it. 

I breastfed and pumped for a year for both my children, and I'm an advocate of breastfeeding.  I also am adopted, never had a drop of breastmilk in my life, and am healthy and happy and bonded to my fantastic mom.  So...I have a tendency to look at this issue with compassion for all the varied needs of mothers and babies. 

[pek64]

It is not possible, nor reasonable, to expect a single organization to be able to provide support that lives up to the expectations of all. When my son was a baby, there was not an LLL support group in my suburban area, but there was another breastfeeding support group. That group catered to those working, and were not able to meet my stay-at-home needs. I simply accepted and was grateful for the support they *were* able to give, and look elsewhere for the rest. I have not, nor will I, bash that group! Those women were trying to help. Period.

I am thankful that LLL kept breastfeeding from being completely eliminated, and paving the way for other support groups to emerge. Based on that history, LLL and it's leaders deserve more respect than they are receiving here.

[ModerateMom]

Originally Posted by pek64 

It is not possible, nor reasonable, to expect a single organization to be able to be able to provide support that lives up to the expectations of all. When my son was a baby, there was not an LLL support group in my suburban area, but there was another breastfeeding support group. That group catered to those working, and were not able to meet my stay-at-home needs. I simply accepted and was grateful for the support they *were* able to give, and look elsewhere for the rest. I have not, nor will I, bash that group! Those women were trying to help. Period.
I am thankful that LLL kept breastfeeding from being completely eliminated, and paving the way for other support groups to emerge. Based on that history, LLL and it's leaders deserve more respect than they are receiving here.

I'm not bashing LLL, not at all.  I'm refuting the statement that "babies need to be fed by their mothers."  That's it.  LLL's job is to support breastfeeding, and that's fine, but to make a blanket statement that babies need to be fed by their mothers is simply incorrect. 

[MichelleZB]

But this thread isn't--and shouldn't be--about whether pumping and bottle feeding is ok. That isn't the issue. The LLL is simply trying to promote images of nursing to normalize nursing to the general public.

[pek64]

ModerateMom, you and I were writing our posts at the same time. My post was concerning the thread in general, not your specific post.

Also, concern generally isn't expressed in quite an antagonistic way. By the way, this is the lactivism forum.

[pickle18]

Originally Posted by Emaye 

There is no vitriol here.  This is a conversation about a breastfeeding organization at a breastfeeding board.  We all have a stake on it.  From a public relation perspective, I think the LLL has a problem.  If its supporters are having to defend it to members of the public (us) who theoretically agree with its basic mission, then I think the organization should check itself, no?  Otherwise, it risks becoming marginalized.  Hence the apt comparison to PETA.  Not too many people take PETA seriously anymore.  I feel like there is a backlash building against the LLL. This should concern the organization.  

If this doesn't matter -- if it believes that the many women that are voicing their concerns and sharing their experiences don't need to be considered -- by all means the LLL can carry on until oblivion.   It is a 'see the forest for the trees' kinda of situation, me thinks.  

Starting a focus group for how to improve LLL is all well and good - but it wasn't the topic of this thread.  The only PR issue I see here is the one that New Zealand public health sidestepped by *listening* to LLL and the other organizations, whose opinions they specifically solicited, when they pointed out the potential conflict of interest in the image.  Public health is public health, and good for them for maintaining consistency in their messaging, whether it's an add about smoking or anything else.  That is smart PR, and good for public welfare.  

Why is the focus even on LLL?  Why not the public health folks?  After all, they asked for and accepted the recommendation.  I'm just not sure how this devolved into "my area LLL sucks", talk of Nazis (?!), and defending life circumstances that may have led to bottlefeeding breastmilk.  I think most people agree here more than disagree.  We all know that breastmilk from the breast is the best thing you can offer.  Pumped milk second.  Donor pumped milk third.  Formula a distant fourth.  

There will always be circumstances that cause people to fall in the second or third camp - but if we don't uphold the gold standard AS the gold standard, what are we doing???  So many people don't even KNOW that it's the gold standard!  So many people are shamed or excluded for breastfeeding at the actual breast!  Clearly, we need more imagery around this, and more information.  Parents do the best they can do, and sometimes that's silver and bronze.  I do think LLL should learn to provide support within those choices, once they are made.  But I don't understand why anyone would expect a breastfeeding advocacy organization to "water down" an overall message that is already not getting through to people, or not try to normalize it culturally.

Hell, that's not even what they were doing - they were just giving a solicited opinion, that a picture of a dad feeding a bottle might be construed as promotion of formula feeding, and present a PR problem for public health.  Even if you support bottlefeeding pumped milk, you have to admit it could be taken the wrong way, and perhaps it's best to avoid the risk. 

[*GreenMama*]

Originally Posted by savithny 

I do regret calling LLL in my area to try to find a meeting, because I was told they didn't have any meetings any other day than weekday mornings, and that helping women figure out working  and breastfeeding was not a goal the organization was interesting in supporting.  Fortunately, I found online help with the issues I was having with pumping, and was able to be successful -- but it was absolutely no thanks to LLL.  I was feeling great about being able to negotiate part-time work with benefits, until I called LLL and was directly told that I was Mothering Wrong

I am so sorry this happened to you. That is not cool no matter who says it. I can 100% assure you that LLL does not say that moms can't work or shouldn't pump. It is true that having started in the 1950s there were some hold out who still believed that mom MUST be at home, but in most parts of the country LLL has evolved and changed with the times,

In my local group there are five Leaders, 4 of whom work outside the home and some have since their babies were little. The 5th is a sometimes SAHM, sometimes WAHM. They were able to become leaders because they were very conscious of the way that the separation would effect the baby and did what they could to make it as easy a transition as possible.

They have three meetings a month, one during the day, one on Saturday at a public library and one on a Wed night. They do this SPECIFICALLY to try to reach out to ALL moms. Again, this is said in no way to diminish your concerns, but to point out that what happens in one location is not inductive of LLL as a whole.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

It is both acceptable to support LLL for what they do and to talk about improvements that can be made and/or personal theexperiences with LLL. Please discuss the issues not the members. Please try to see everyone's point of view and post with respect for our invested interest in supporting breastfeeding and parenthood. It is OK to be a staunch supporter of LLL and it is Ok to have some reservations about their philosophies. This discussion can and should be had with respect for both views. Honor requests for edits before posting. Thanks, ICM