not too happy with this - Page 5

[pek64]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

 Given how few women I know who make it to one year you just made her point for her.

My kids only nursed till 3 and 2. I'm obviously a slacker who doesn't care about them.

No one said you were a slacker, and the remark about nursing until 6 or 7 was hearsay. Not directly from LLL. I really wonder how much was actually said, and how much is rumor (which can be exaggerated)!

I've not had any misinformation or negative remarks from anyone who is or was a LLL leader. This is a case where I need to experience it to believe it. My appologies to those who have personally had negative experiences, but I cannot tell what is real and what is rumor.

[pek64]

If LLL really is so bad, why aren't other breastfeeding support groups being formed, and remaining in existence? Instead of complaining, fill the void.

[One_Girl]

i

Originally Posted by pek64 

If LLL really is so bad, why aren't other breastfeeding support groups being formed, and remaining in existence? Instead of complaining, fill the void.

Actually in my area there are three others now and the LLL group I was in tanked about a year after I left. There is also one specifically for teen moms. They are all run by lactation consultants and have thrived and built good reputations whereas the LLL continues to have a bad one despite being gone for six years.

[pek64]

If there are other groups, then just join a group that better meets your needs. There's reason to attack LLL.

I joined a breastfeeding support group when my child was a baby. It was not LLL. The group provided great support for working moms and recommended Ferber's sleep book. It did not meet all of my needs, but met some. I appreciated what I got that helped and left the rest. There's no reason to attack them. That group collapsed when the founders wanted to move on, and passed the reigns to other women. I think it's a shame, even though it was not an ideal fit for me.

I am disappointed that some MDC moms aren't demonstrating the behavior they wanted from LLL leaders.

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by pek64 

I am disappointed that some MDC moms aren't demonstrating the behavior they wanted from LLL leaders.

I do. I talk to everyone I know who is pregnant about breastfeeding. I give them all the factual information I possibly can and then I tell them that I will love them and support them no matter what they decide. I have close friends who have bottle fed their babies donated breastmilk for years. I have friends who have pumped exclusively for years. I have friends who have nursed till four or five. I have friends who have bottle fed formula from day one.

I care that they are nice to their kids. That is what I want from LLL. 

And dogmatically, emphatically saying over and over that you won't believe something until it happens to you... well... uhm... Yeah.

[pek64]

To clarify, I believe it is possible without it happening to me, but would not accept it as fact without hard evidence. And being attacking to LLL is not behaving the way good leaders should behave.

[rightkindofme]

Unless you can pinpoint how I have "attacked" them... uhm... dude. You need to relax. It's freaking Christmas. No one is attacking LLL just because we occasionally have different opinions. 

[pek64]

So you should get to say what you want, but I shouldn't because it's Christmas?!? Dude! I don't drink kool-aid, no matter who offers it. But I do have other things to attend to, given the time. Farewell, until another time!

[One_Girl]

I don't think it is attacking to point out where the organization needs to grow and I think it is sad that the organization resists growth and allows their name to be tarnished by continuing to deny the need for growth by denying any problem and telling people to go elsewhere rather than trying to change. LLL can do great work, I loved feeling like I wasn't alone when I was in the group. I hear in some areas they do great work and there was a time I completely adored and embraced what my group was doing, but I mostly hear about how bad they are and I experienced and witnessrd how they marganalized mothers first hand. Having mostly a bad reputation and not being willing to address it is how organizations fail. It is how ours fell and LLL should be working harder to prevent that not to defend it.

[McGucks]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 
They told her she wasn't allowed to do mother to mother milk share.

Every LLL is defined by the people in that location. LLL very deliberately hunts for very impassioned people.
 

LLL isn't allowed to say what's allowed.  Individual people may say that "LLL doesn't allow this," but that is contrary to both their stated purposes and intentions.  If members misinterpret or screw up or get judgmental, it isn't the fault of the organization itself. 

I very much agree that "every LLL is defined by the people in that location."  As far as the "hunting" aspect, that sounds kind of creepy to me, though I will admit I heard the same thing about them until I went to an actual meeting and found a pretty nice group of women who were looking for support and companionship....in addition to, when needed, breastfeeding help.

[*GreenMama*]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

 I also think the meetings are very cult like and hard for mothers who aren't completely onboard with nursing until second grade to attend.

 I'm assuming that you're being facetious.  LLL is most certainly not a cult, though leaders and moms may be impassioned about how awesome breastfeeding is.   Many many many moms and Leaders and their little ones wean well before second grade, but the Leaders are open and welcoming of moms who choose to wean or continue nursing and suggest that child-led weaning "gradually, with love" is the least hard on the child.   

I have been at meetings where a mama is asking how to wean or how weaning happens and the leader will say something about "don't offer, don't refuse" as an option or how taking it slow over the course of a few weeks-months might be the least stressful for both mom and child. Not all moms like to hear that the least stressful way might take a while.  

Our doctors, parents, friends all occasionally tell us something we don't want to hear or aren't ready to accept or just won't work for us in our personal situation.  That doesn't make the information is any less valid or real, it just means you take what works for you and leave the rest behind. 

Here are a slew of posts and articles from LLL about weaning.  Reading them will give better insight on exactly what position they take on weaning, early weaning, extended breastfeeding etc. http://www.llli.org/nb/nbweaning.html 

Originally Posted by savithny 

Yet another patronizing "I suppose if you can't give your baby the absolute best,  you need to tell yourself it's okay to make yourself feel better" response about pumped milk....

Once again, the linked article "proving" pumping is inferior does not in fact say that....
 
So if lll is going to tell people that pumped milk is a second best choice?   I'd like to actually see the evidence that it is based on?

I'm incredibly sorry if you found my post patronizing. It is not my intention and for that I apologize.   It is very hard to read intonation when you can't hear the author's voice. It's something I struggle with.

As someone else wrote after me this is simply a scientific based fact that unless you are pumping and feeding the pumped milk within minutes some of the health benefits will be decreased. If the milk has been refrigerated and reheated it will lose more of its nutritional value.  

It's not about shame. There is no shame. Pumped milk is awesome and it is still nutritionally better than anything you could possibly buy at a store. As an analogy, apples are best consumed straight off the tree, second they are best eaten raw whenever they happened to have been picked, and third would be any form of cooked because they will lose some nutrients in the cooking process. However a cooked apple with nothing added will always be healthier than some form of apple flavored snack. 

Please understand I don't even close to believe that formula is the equivalent of some sugary apple flavored snack, but I couldn't figure out a good end analogy.  Thank god formula exists, but if someone can provide breastmilk through any means  it's almost always healthier. 

LLL does talk about breastfeeding being more than just milk (the theme of NJ's 2013 conference is even "More Than Milk") but that doesn't mean a mom is a bad mom for choosing to pump or formula feed, or being unable to feed from the breast.  There is something special about breastfeeding that may make it easier to parent a young child, and give you those warm gushy love hormones that come during the nursing process, but it's not an assertion that If you don't or can't you won't have a special bond with your child. Different strokes and realities for different folks.  

I personally had a "failed" breastfeeding relationship with my first child and went on to successfully nurse my second two.  While I feel like I wish I could have nursed the first longer and that is something I struggled with personally I still have this amazing life-changing bond with him.  He feels just as much my child as the other two.

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

That's what my local LLL group thought when I gently weaned my dd at age three. It was a crushing experience but it had been hard anyways because I was really ready to be done at two and a half and had gotten a lot of crap for wanting to be done then.

I'm sorry you went to an LLL meeting and felt unheard and /or judged. Do you mind the breastfeeding counselor in me asking what was said by the Leaders to make you feel like they were not supporting you in your decision?  Or was it other member moms?

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I don't think it is attacking to point out where the organization needs to grow and I think it is sad that the organization resists growth and allows their name to be tarnished by continuing to deny the need for growth by denying any problem and telling people to go elsewhere rather than trying to change.  LLL can do great work, I loved feeling like I wasn't alone when I was in the group.  I hear in some areas they do great work and there was a time I completely adored and embraced what my group was doing,  but I mostly hear about how bad they are and I experienced and witnessrd how they marganalized mothers first hand.  Having mostly a bad reputation and not being willing to address it is how organizations fail. It is how ours fell and LLL should be working harder to prevent that not to defend it.

Have you spoken to anyone in LLL about your concerns?  Did you mention to the Leader that you weren't pleased with how they said something or maybe to the Area Coordinator of Leaders?  I only ask because nothing can be done if the Leaders or LLL don't know there is a specific problem.  

Some groups with bad reputations or some leaders that are stuck in the past does not mean the whole organization denies individual problems or the need for growth.  LLL has been through tremendous growth over the years.  There are hundreds of groups all over the world and thousands of Leaders. Its non-profit, and basically customer serviced based.  What is the saying? You can't please all of the people all of the time?  Something like that.  There will always be people unhappy with something some human says.  Leaders are just moms experienced in breastfeeding.  They're not going to get everything right all the time, and more than likely if they know there is a problem they'll take it as. learning experience and try to work from there.

I feel like the best way for LLL to work harder and prevent upset is training new Leaders, which they do constantly, take care of existing problems when they arise- which they need to be apprised of, and constantly update Leaders on evidenced based practices and give them the opportunity to attend conferences, communication skills series, and other leader development activities- which they do as much as humanly, non-profitedly possible. 

----

Lastly, I can't find it in the thread but I think someone had posted something about  LLL not allowing moms to milk-share. LLL has very specific liability issues which prevent them from hooking up moms for milk-sharing at their meetings but the organization is not against milk sharing.   

Leaders, when asked, are supposed to discuss the risks and benefits of informal milk sharing with moms. As with everything Leaders give information, not advice.  Here is their policy statement on milk sharing which states EXACTLY what a Leader should be saying to moms regarding milk sharing.  It was updated just two months ago so it is extremely current. http://www.llli.org/release/milksharing.html

[Sharlla]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

 Given how few women I know who make it to one year you just made her point for her.

My kids only nursed till 3 and 2. I'm obviously a slacker who doesn't care about them.

i weaned mine at 24 months ad 35 months,i dont feel like a slacker mom nor has anyone ever attempted to make me feel that way

[rightkindofme]

Originally Posted by Sharlla 

i weaned mine at 24 months ad 35 months,i dont feel like a slacker mom nor has anyone ever attempted to make me feel that way

I started going to LLL when my oldest had been weaned for a few months (at 36 months) and my youngest was about 22 months. I was looking for advice on weaning earlier than I did with my oldest because I was about ready to lose my mind and beat the ever-loving-stuffing out of someone. I was touched out. I nursed for more than four years straight. I know some women love it--I hated it. I felt like someone was raking my nipple with glass most of that time.

The response was for people to purse their lips and say, "Don't you care enough about your children to nurse them until they are ready to wean? Hmmmmmmm???????"

I didn't feel comfortable telling this room full of women with pursed lips "I'm sorry that I have PTSD and having skin to skin contact with another human being makes me feel scared and panicked and like I am going to vomit. I've had enough." I went twice and then didn't go back. When someone actively suggests that I don't care about my children because I need to wean well then I have no patience. 

But my experience doesn't count because not everyone reading this thread was in the room and heard it. Obviously I'm just making things up. LLL is perfect and full of saints. 

Ok, the thing that is making me mad (and keep coming back to post even though my opinion isn't particularly desired) is that I don't think the whole organization sucks. I recommend that people go there. But I simultaneously say, "Be aware that you will have to manage your own priorities because their priorities are not yours." That isn't slamming an organization.

I'm feeling horribly insulted. Which means I should stop participating. Because apparently when you have an opinion other than "Oh the LLL fairies are the best fairies in the whoooooooooooole woooooooooooorld" you are slamming the organization.

[philomom]

Rightkindofme, I'm behind you one hundred percent!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

I'm feeling horribly insulted. Which means I should stop participating. Because apparently when you have an opinion other than "Oh the LLL fairies are the best fairies in the whoooooooooooole woooooooooooorld" you are slamming the organization.

I think that what we're seeing here is that LLL is an important source and force for so many mothers. I think the strong defense probably comes because many women have joined and feel so strongly about the benefits of LLL. Perhaps some have felt that LLL saved their BFing relationship. For others, it feels like a stab in the back. 

I will say that from an outside perspective (I am a Kellymom fan and never had the need for the direct support from LLL), I don't see a lot of LLL bashing here.  

Originally Posted by *GreenMama* 

As an analogy, apples are best consumed straight off the tree, second they are best eaten raw whenever they happened to have been picked, and third would be any form of cooked because they will lose some nutrients in the cooking process.

I think it's reasonable to ask for studies about nutrient loss for pumped milk, especially when we all acknowledge the extreme sensitivity mothers would naturally feel upon being told that they aren't feeding their children the ideal food because it has been pumped and stored (and especially with the extra work and discomfort pumping mothers dedicate to feeding their children breasmilk) The analogy of other foods is a good one because it isn't a good one. There ARE some foods that we consume that are improved nutritionally by the cooking process. I'm not saying that this is the case with BM but I think this is a good illustration of why studies included with these "obvious facts" are a good thing to bring to the discussion.  

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by *GreenMama* 
 
Our doctors, parents, friends all occasionally tell us something we don't want to hear or aren't ready to accept or just won't work for us in our personal situation.  That doesn't make the information is any less valid or real, it just means you take what works for you and leave the rest behind. 

Again, coming from the outside of this but certainly from a place of being told what I know to be true (for me) that is nonetheless difficult to hear (and vise versa), this is all in the delivery. And the delivery of this information is a tricky thing. Especially with new mothers or mothers stressed about feeding their children. 

I wonder how much of the LLL training is in tact over fact. 

But, like their are a few child birth courses out there, it sounds like a lot of women have some choices for what type of breastfeeding support they want. I imagine in large cities there are breastfeeding support groups that cater to women who work out of the home. In really large cities there may even be ones for abuse survivors and etc. Or maybe it's a matter of emailing a few leaders and getting a feel for their particular focus.  I am in a medium sized city and I know we have quite a few volunteers in our area.  Do people generally "shop around" for a LLL leader? 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I am curious about the studies of nutrient loss and am going to look some up and post here. My first hit got me this interesting note: 

 

According to THE BREASTFEEDING ANSWER BOOK, page 228, research indicates that human milk has previously unrecognized properties that protect it from bacterial contamination. One study, Pardou 1994, found that after 8 days of refrigeration some of the milk actually had lower bacterial levels than it did on the day it was expressed.

Interesting that this seems to have been removed from the revised LLL BM storage article: 

Quote:

Current research suggests that human milk can safely be stored in glass or plastic receptacles with no significant nutrient loss.

This study looks like a good read: 

Quote:

The immunoprotective constituents of human milk are

stable when stored at room temperature for 8 h,

refrigerated at 0–4°C for 3 d or frozen at ÿ20°C for

12 mo (35). They are also stable after pasteurization at

56°C for 30 min (36). Sonification may well reduce the

protective effects on IgA, sIgA and lysozyme and the

ability to inhibit E. coli. The cells in human milk are

reduced by storage, freezing, pasteurization, microwaving and sonification (6, 11). Cell activity is also reduced

in the surviving cells

Another good one: 

Quote:

Human milk is a fresh, living food with many antioxidant,

antibacterial, prebiotic, probiotic, and immune-boosting properties in addition to nutrients. Although some of these nutrients

and health properties change with storage, there is good evidence that human milk storage can be safe, allowing provision

of optimal nutrition to the child when nursing or immediately

expressed milk is not available. Stored human milk maintains

its unique qualities such that it continues to be the gold standard

for infant feeding, superior to artificial feeding.

Not surprising Kellymom has some great links.  

[*GreenMama*]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

I started going to LLL when my oldest had been weaned for a few months (at 36 months) and my youngest was about 22 months. I was looking for advice on weaning earlier than I did with my oldest because I was about ready to lose my mind and beat the ever-loving-stuffing out of someone. I was touched out. I nursed for more than four years straight. I know some women love it--I hated it. I felt like someone was raking my nipple with glass most of that time.

The response was for people to purse their lips and say, "Don't you care enough about your children to nurse them until they are ready to wean? Hmmmmmmm???????"

I didn't feel comfortable telling this room full of women with pursed lips "I'm sorry that I have PTSD and having skin to skin contact with another human being makes me feel scared and panicked and like I am going to vomit. I've had enough." I went twice and then didn't go back. When someone actively suggests that I don't care about my children because I need to wean well then I have no patience. 

But my experience doesn't count because not everyone reading this thread was in the room and heard it. Obviously I'm just making things up. LLL is perfect and full of saints. 

Ok, the thing that is making me mad (and keep coming back to post even though my opinion isn't particularly desired) is that I don't think the whole organization sucks. I recommend that people go there. But I simultaneously say, "Be aware that you will have to manage your own priorities because their priorities are not yours." That isn't slamming an organization.

I'm feeling horribly insulted. Which means I should stop participating. Because apparently when you have an opinion other than "Oh the LLL fairies are the best fairies in the whoooooooooooole woooooooooooorld" you are slamming the organization.

Oh my goodness, a Leader actually said to you "Don't you care enough about your children to nurse them until they are ready to wean? Hmmmmmmm???????". That is just so upsetting. If that happened it would leave a bad taste in my mouth too. Did you speak with the Leader who said it or to other Leaders about it, because it would suck if that Leader went on to say that to other moms.

I really don't think anyone is calling you a liar or saying YOU are slamming the organization. In my posts I always try to see it from the other side, which is why I ask questions and don't just assume i know the answer. Its not because I'm calling anyone a liar. Its because i genuinely am interested in the information.

The thing is that you have one opinion and I have another and she has a different one because we all come from our own set of experiences. It doesn't mean any of our opinions or less valid. They're just opinions.

[*GreenMama*]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

Again, coming from the outside of this but certainly from a place of being told what I know to be true (for me) that is nonetheless difficult to hear (and vise versa), this is all in the delivery. And the delivery of this information is a tricky thing. Especially with new mothers or mothers stressed about feeding their children. 

I wonder how much of the LLL training is in tact over fact. 

But, like their are a few child birth courses out there, it sounds like a lot of women have some choices for what type of breastfeeding support they want. I imagine in large cities there are breastfeeding support groups that cater to women who work out of the home. In really large cities there may even be ones for abuse survivors and etc. Or maybe it's a matter of emailing a few leaders and getting a feel for their particular focus.  I am in a medium sized city and I know we have quite a few volunteers in our area.  Do people generally "shop around" for a LLL leader? 

I'm not sure if people really get to shop around for a Leader unless they do live in a big city with a lot of choices.

I agree, it's all in the delivery. With Leaders being regular moms I'm sure mistakes are made.

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 


I think it's reasonable to ask for studies about nutrient loss for pumped milk, especially when we all acknowledge the extreme sensitivity mothers would naturally feel upon being told that they aren't feeding their children the ideal food because it has been pumped and stored (and especially with the extra work and discomfort pumping mothers dedicate to feeding their children breasmilk) The analogy of other foods is a good one because it isn't a good one. There ARE some foods that we consume that are improved nutritionally by the cooking process. I'm not saying that this is the case with BM but I think this is a good illustration of why studies included with these "obvious facts" are a good thing to bring to the discussion.  

Absolutely. Studies are the key. 

Here's one on Vitamin C denigration http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11519987


This one you linked to is good and it's pretty current. The Storage of Human Milk section- parts 3, 4, and 7 all have info on potential nutrient/enzyme loss.
http://www.bfmed.org/Media/Files/Protocols/Protocol%208%20-%20English%20revised%202010.pdf


This one looks like a good one and is quoted eeeeverywhere, but I think you have to purchase it to read it:

Jones, F. (2011). Best practice for expressing, storing and handling human milk in hospitals, homes and child care settings (3rd ed.). Fort Worth, TX: Human Milk Banking Association of North America, Inc.

And if you can get it from a library or somewhere the book I love with lots of info and solid references is Breastfeeding Answers Made Simple: A Guide for Helping Mothers by Nancy Mohrbacher, IBCLC, FILCA http://www.ibreastfeeding.com/catalog/p240/Breastfeeding-Answers-Made-Simple/product_info.html

Again, just to be clear, expressed milk is a wonderful thing and a thousand times better than formula.  The science on what is/might be lost doesn't change that fact, and any mama that takes that time to express her milk to give to her baby shouldn't be made to feel bad. 

LLL does believe that there is more to breastfeeding than just milk. That is totally true. It doesn't mean a mom is less than if she doesn't or can't feed from the breast, but rather that there are benefits to feeding straight from the breast and mothering through breastfeeding other than just nutritional facts, so LLL's main focus is helping moms breastfeed.
Edited by *GreenMama* - 12/27/12 at 10:22am

[pek64]

Originally Posted by *GreenMama* 

Oh my goodness, a Leader actually said to you "Don't you care enough about your children to nurse them until they are ready to wean? Hmmmmmmm???????". That is just so upsetting. If that happened it would leave a bad taste in my mouth too. Did you speak with the Leader who said it or to other Leaders about it, because it would suck if that Leader went on to say that to other moms.
I really don't think anyone is calling you a liar or saying YOU are slamming the organization. In my posts I always try to see it from the other side, which is why I ask questions and don't just assume i know the answer. Its not because I'm calling anyone a liar. Its because i genuinely am interested in the information.
The thing is that you have one opinion and I have another and she has a different one because we all come from our own set of experiences. It doesn't mean any of our opinions or less valid. They're just opinions.

Read carefully. She said people. It wasn't LLL or a leader, it was the moms attending. LLL cannot be held accountable for the attitudes of attendees. This is why I said I am not believing what I did not experience.