April Chit Chat - Page 6 « Back to Group Discussions

[Abraisme]

What worries me is that plenty of vaccinated people get it, their symptoms are less so they will probably never get diagnosed.  Thus, they're very likely to spread the illness to little babies, where it's the most harmful.  It's hard enough to get diagnosed when you have strong symptoms, much less if it acts like a mild cold.  Olivine has had it for nearly a month now and while it is a bad cough, she's totally fine the rest of the time.  It's really not that serious is most healthy people, only in young babies who aren't/can't be vaccinated yet. 

 

Originally Posted by jbk21 

I agree, Amanda- the efficacy numbers don't sound low to me.  That sounds pretty good, actually.  From Abra's source- it says that  "pertussis will develop in 90% of unvaccinated children living with someone with pertussis, and in 50% to 80% of unvaccinated children who attend school or daycare with someone with pertussis."  A 50-80% chance of developing the disease if exposed sounds high.  Coincidentally, the vaccine is 59-89% effective, which is a similar range (higher, actually).  Still sounds like a high percentage- I think it's all in how it is framed.  And the vax reduces the severity of the symptoms- for a disease that can last 6 weeks or longer, I think that is really great.

That is just my opinion from looking at the scientific data.  Obviously there are other unquantifiable factors like instincts and motherly intuition, issues with the vax ingredients, etc.  I am not saying that non-vaxing isn't a valid choice, just offering my perspective.  I feel completely comfortable with my decision to vax both of my kids, and especially so considering that pertussis is going around.  It may not be "that bad" but I certainly don't want to have a sick kid for weeks on end.  Again, that is just me.  Just wanted to offer my side of it since I seem to be in the minority on MDC.  

[Mal85]

Happy Easter, everyone. Hope you're all having a great holiday. My older daughter tested positive for strep throat on Friday, but seems to be handling it just fine. I woke up with all the symptoms of it in the middle of the night last night and have been miserable all day. I called the on call doc and asked for a prescription, but apparently she believes you don't get strep throat over the age of 15 and said I need to "tough it out" and be seen tomorrow. So, another night of no sleep and a 5 month old that still needs me every few hours all night. 

What I really hate is that I'm missing her first Easter. I barely made it through church and was light-headed and chilling by the time it let out. So, I sent DH to our family Easter dinner with the girls and have been on the couch all day. I hate when I'm sick on a holiday! I think Greta should come out okay. She's nursing like crazy and just finished her round of antibiotics for her ear infection, so I'm hoping that keeps her from getting it.

[CDsMom1031]

Originally Posted by jbk21 
Nicole- REALLY?!  Whoa dude.  How much longer will you be in school?  

I will start my internship in December and be done at the end of March. O_o I told DH that I would be PERFECTLY fine getting pregnant/trying to get pregnant around Conner's 1-year birthday, because then I can work at my current job until I go onto maternity leave... Quit once I have the kiddo then not look for my "real job" until I'm ready to go back to work. That way, I won't have to stress over only have 6 or 8 weeks like my current job allows.

Or I told him I was perfectly content with having another baby right now if he could be the pregnant one.

[jbk21]

I think that's a valid concern.  

I'm just speaking in generalities re: vax/not vax and to me, the risk/benefit was pretty clear to me.  They should be better at diagnosing it for sure.  My cousin and her family had it (they are all vaccinated) in Ohio and they had no trouble being diagnosed right away.  

Originally Posted by Abraisme 

What worries me is that plenty of vaccinated people get it, their symptoms are less so they will probably never get diagnosed.  Thus, they're very likely to spread the illness to little babies, where it's the most harmful.  It's hard enough to get diagnosed when you have strong symptoms, much less if it acts like a mild cold.  Olivine has had it for nearly a month now and while it is a bad cough, she's totally fine the rest of the time.  It's really not that serious is most healthy people, only in young babies who aren't/can't be vaccinated yet. 

 

[Paigekitten]

Originally Posted by Abraisme 

What worries me is that plenty of vaccinated people get it, their symptoms are less so they will probably never get diagnosed.  Thus, they're very likely to spread the illness to little babies, where it's the most harmful.  It's hard enough to get diagnosed when you have strong symptoms, much less if it acts like a mild cold.  Olivine has had it for nearly a month now and while it is a bad cough, she's totally fine the rest of the time.  It's really not that serious is most healthy people, only in young babies who aren't/can't be vaccinated yet. 

 

We are running into this too, I called urgent care in my parent's hometown to see if they could do the swab (tiny town) and I had to go through a bunch of people who didn't even know what I was talking about and the last person didn't understand why I would want to test my kids if they weren't having horrible coughing fits with the whoop sound.  Then, because we had a bunch of kids coming over for an Easter Egg hunt I called their parents to explain we'd been exposed and probably have it and they all said "Oh we've been vaccinated, we'll come anyway"   They can still TRANSMIT to others even if they don't develop symptoms themselves.  Obviously their doctors don't seem to think that's a very important detail to explain to parents, as everyone thinks I'm nuts.

Even my parents kind of rolled their eyes at me as I was explaining I'm pretty sure the kids have it because Julianna has a slight cough and they all have a runny nose.  My mom said "but they're hardly sick!"

Sigh.

My personal theory is that doctors don't want to test because then we would have data that shows just how high rates are despite vaccination and fewer people would vaccinate and drug companies would lose money.  But then I like conspiracy theories.

[Abraisme]

Yup, I totally agree.  Our pedi told me that Coralie and Cyan did NOT have it, as they weren't hacking, so it was clearly something unrelated.  Then when she tested positive they said, it's a good thing you caught it really early in the baby".  Apparently if you catch it BEFORE it turns into a whooping cough you can really minimize the symptoms, but once the whooping starts it pretty much has to run it's course.  It so doesn't make sense that it's easier to treat if you catch it early, but no one wants to test you early.  Coralie hardly has a tiny little cough and a little throat congestion.  No one would hear her and think whooping cough, she seems totally fine.   The news makes it sound SOOO scary, but then when you're faced with it it's often kind of minor and no one takes it seriously.  You don't even get the whooping cough part until 2-3 weeks in to the illness, for a long time it just mimics a minor cough.  I feel like I know more about it in 2 days of research than most nurses.

 

Originally Posted by Paigekitten 

We are running into this too, I called urgent care in my parent's hometown to see if they could do the swab (tiny town) and I had to go through a bunch of people who didn't even know what I was talking about and the last person didn't understand why I would want to test my kids if they weren't having horrible coughing fits with the whoop sound.  Then, because we had a bunch of kids coming over for an Easter Egg hunt I called their parents to explain we'd been exposed and probably have it and they all said "Oh we've been vaccinated, we'll come anyway"   They can still TRANSMIT to others even if they don't develop symptoms themselves.  Obviously their doctors don't seem to think that's a very important detail to explain to parents, as everyone thinks I'm nuts.

Even my parents kind of rolled their eyes at me as I was explaining I'm pretty sure the kids have it because Julianna has a slight cough and they all have a runny nose.  My mom said "but they're hardly sick!"

Sigh.

My personal theory is that doctors don't want to test because then we would have data that shows just how high rates are despite vaccination and fewer people would vaccinate and drug companies would lose money.  But then I like conspiracy theories.

As for deciding to vac or not.  It is simply a personal choice as to whether one is more concerned about getting sick or more concerned about chemicals.  I totally understand both sides of the argument. 
 

[TalkToMeNow]

Originally Posted by Mal85 

Happy Easter, everyone. Hope you're all having a great holiday. My older daughter tested positive for strep throat on Friday, but seems to be handling it just fine. I woke up with all the symptoms of it in the middle of the night last night and have been miserable all day. I called the on call doc and asked for a prescription, but apparently she believes you don't get strep throat over the age of 15 and said I need to "tough it out" and be seen tomorrow. So, another night of no sleep and a 5 month old that still needs me every few hours all night. 

What I really hate is that I'm missing her first Easter. I barely made it through church and was light-headed and chilling by the time it let out. So, I sent DH to our family Easter dinner with the girls and have been on the couch all day. I hate when I'm sick on a holiday! I think Greta should come out okay. She's nursing like crazy and just finished her round of antibiotics for her ear infection, so I'm hoping that keeps her from getting it.

I'm sorry, Mal. That's no fun at all! Once, both of my girls tested positive for strep. I was feeling awful too, so I asked their pediatrician about it. She said there was almost no chance I had it. When I was still sick a few days later, I went in for a test and had it.  A day after I started abx, I felt a million times better. Why don't drs think we can get it?!
 

Originally Posted by CDsMom1031 

I will start my internship in December and be done at the end of March. O_o I told DH that I would be PERFECTLY fine getting pregnant/trying to get pregnant around Conner's 1-year birthday, because then I can work at my current job until I go onto maternity leave... Quit once I have the kiddo then not look for my "real job" until I'm ready to go back to work. That way, I won't have to stress over only have 6 or 8 weeks like my current job allows.

Or I told him I was perfectly content with having another baby right now if he could be the pregnant one.

Funny! 

[TalkToMeNow]

Originally Posted by MrsKatie 

J, I really, really appreciate your input here.  I am jealous that you've reached a place where you feel completely comfortable with your decision.  That's where I feel so lost and conflicted.  I have not yet vaxed KJ. And I am not comfortable with that decision.  But the thought of vaxing her makes me equally uncomfortable.  I oscillate between thinking I'll vax her and thinking I won't.  I feel paralyzed in this decision, like I've made NO headway in all the research and soul-searching I've done.  Doesn't help that my mom has torn me a new you-know-what on multiple occasions; she thinks it's "criminal" and "insane" that I haven't vaxed KJ.  I know it's just because she loves KJ so very much and doesn't understand the issue.  She thinks the non-vaxing crowd is a "small fringe group" that's been swayed by propaganda.  And I have no idea if she's right or wrong!

The toughest thing for me is that I don't know if my fear of vaxing is intuition or just... fear.  Whenever Paddy goes to work, or my sister competes in a horse show, or I can't get ahold of my parents, I convince myself that they have or will get in some horrible accident.  I am anxious all the time of something terrible happening to someone I love.  Is that intuition?  No, that's anxiety.  Pure and simple.  Unfounded, irrational anxiety.  So is that what's happening to me when I resist vaccination?  Or is it something deeper?  I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.  I'd love more than anything to come to a peaceful place with this issue, but I fear I'm nowhere near that, yet.

I mentioned before that it took me 10 years to come to a decision. I was in that place you are describing for a looong time. 

My thoughts on intuition vs. fear: I have read something to the effect that we can't always trust out instinct when making these types of decisions. The reason is that, from an evolutionary standpoint, we are designed to have a lot of false positives. What this means is, we are more likely to see danger when it isn't really there than the other way around. Thinking a shadow in the grass was a snake would keep us alive better than thinking it was just a shadow. With technologies like medical interventions, our instinct hasn't really kept pace. That's not to say that our intuition/ instinct doesn't still have a place. I think it is just good to have more to go on than intuition. 

Oddly enough, what started me thinking about all of this was when Jasper was in the bili-bed in the hospital. My instinct wanted to rip him out of it and run out of the hospital with him. Same thing for the multiple blood tests he had. Jasper's blood levels were really elevated; he needed the treatment. But my instinct was to stop it. Sometimes, our instincts are right. Sometimes, they are emotionally based rather than logical. 

[seraf]

I try not to make decisions from a place of fear.

Is my child likely to have a major adverse reaction to a vaccine? No.

Is my child likely to have a major complication to what used to be common childhood illnesses? No.

All these vaccines were developed while breast feeding rates were very low. I do believe formula fed babies are better off with vaccines because they don't have the same immune system as a breastfed child.

Healthy immune systems are pretty effective.

Injecting several pathogens at once has the benefit of fewer injections but at what cost to the healthy immune system? At what cost to the effectiveness of the vaccine? Perhaps none, perhaps great.

I do prefer to trust the actions of a healthy immune system combined with hand washing and good sanitation over believing the sensationalized ads from people who stand to make a lot of money on medications.

[jbk21]

I agree re: fear, Sara.  I think that is a great point.  

In addition to that, I try to make decisions based on Kant's categorical imperative- simply stated: What if everyone did as I do?

I won't get into it more because we could all go back and forth all day about to vax/ not vax, but that is generally the linchpin for me after looking at all of the evidence.  I also find comfort in the fact that Dr. Sears is pro-vax.  Thanks for reminding me of that, Amanda!  

Anyway!  Mal I hope your girls are doing well and that you are able to get better quickly, too.  That totally sucks.  

Nicole- yeah it seems like a good choice to wait until your commitments reduce dramatically so that it isn't so stressful!  And pregnancy will probably dry up your milk supply, so I think taking weaning into account is important.

[wellforth]

Nicole, I had a friend who didn't get pregnant for five years.  One month after giving birth, she got pregnant again, though it was ectopic.  A month later, she got pregnant again, and now has the so-called Irish twins.  I wouldn't start trying until you WANT to get pregnant.

My dh was feeling much better yesterday.  A hot bath (or several) really helped him a lot.  He was up for some stroller walks, and even an ergo walk with the baby.  It was a 5-nap day.  I really wish the baby would take a couple of long naps instead of five short ones, but I don't know how to make my wishes into reality.  It was nice to sleep in today.

I struggle with the same thing re vax.  The odds of him having the disease or a reaction from the vax are both pretty nil, but at the same time, *I* don't want to be the cause of him getting injured or not injured.  It's a decision that just sucks any way I look at it!  So, I continue not to vax, but I give myself the opportunity to change my mind if that should happen.

My dd's doc was stressing that I vax her against pertussis because it was running rampant in our (former) community.  I was surprised to hear that, because I didn't know of a lot of people who didn't vax.  Nope, it was all in kids who had already been vaxed.  What's the point?  She's got a very healthy immune system.  We all do.

I trust my intuition, even and especially when it comes to medical issues.  I worked in a medical school helping to train doctors for a long time, and honestly, I have a lot less trust for the process after doing it.

carey

[seraf]

Hmmm, if everyone washed their hands frequently and nursed their intentionally conceived children until their immune system developed? I think I could get behind that.

[jbk21]

Absolutely, Sara!  In a perfect world :-)

[Paigekitten]

Originally Posted by Abraisme 

  I feel like I know more about it in 2 days of research than most nurses.
 

Yeah, I kind of feel the same way, it's like they haven't even read the little bit in the pink book about whooping cough and the way the vaccine works.

Originally Posted by TalkToMeNow 

Oddly enough, what started me thinking about all of this was when Jasper was in the bili-bed in the hospital. My instinct wanted to rip him out of it and run out of the hospital with him. Same thing for the multiple blood tests he had. Jasper's blood levels were really elevated; he needed the treatment. But my instinct was to stop it. Sometimes, our instincts are right. Sometimes, they are emotionally based rather than logical. 

This is really interesting because my questioning procedures in medicine came because they wanted to put my first under the lights and we were already having trouble breastfeeding and I wish I had listened to my instincts because she would have been better off if I had.

Originally Posted by seraf 

I try not to make decisions from a place of fear.
Is my child likely to have a major adverse reaction to a vaccine? No.
Is my child likely to have a major complication to what used to be common childhood illnesses? No.
All these vaccines were developed while breast feeding rates were very low. I do believe formula fed babies are better off with vaccines because they don't have the same immune system as a breastfed child.
Healthy immune systems are pretty effective.
Injecting several pathogens at once has the benefit of fewer injections but at what cost to the healthy immune system? At what cost to the effectiveness of the vaccine? Perhaps none, perhaps great.
I do prefer to trust the actions of a healthy immune system combined with hand washing and good sanitation over believing the sensationalized ads from people who stand to make a lot of money on medications.

I will admit that pertussis lasts for so long and is a pain in the neck when they cough all night that if there was a vaccine that was just pertussis and nothing else I would be pretty likely to have the kids get it.

Originally Posted by wellforth 

Nicole, I had a friend who didn't get pregnant for five years.  One month after giving birth, she got pregnant again, though it was ectopic.  A month later, she got pregnant again, and now has the so-called Irish twins.  I wouldn't start trying until you WANT to get pregnant.

Yeah with our second we were thinking it would probably take the 6 months it took when we were trying for our first, but I ended up getting pregnant when DD1 was just 11 months old.

[dashley111]

Originally Posted by seraf 

Hmmm, if everyone washed their hands frequently and nursed their intentionally conceived children until their immune system developed? I think I could get behind that.

Most people are too lazy to even wash their hands, and way too busy to be bothered by breastfeeding...

[TalkToMeNow]

Lol at intentionally conceived children! Isn't that like 1 in 10? I know it's some crazy low number... Hehe. There'd be at lot less people in this world.

[jbk21]

I think it's 1 in 10 or maybe fewer, Amanda! Haha!

[Paigekitten]

Originally Posted by dashley111 

Most people are too lazy to even wash their hands, and way too busy to be bothered by breastfeeding...

I got in a facebook argument once about the importance of personally researching vaccines before giving them to your child.  I was FLOORED when I saw the mom who insisted that we didn't need to bother and should just blindly vaccinate everyone, formula feed her baby.  I didn't realize there were people so insufferably resistant to the idea of taking responsibility for their actions and the potential effect on their children. 

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by TalkToMeNow 

Lol at intentionally conceived children! Isn't that like 1 in 10? I know it's some crazy low number... Hehe. There'd be at lot less people in this world.

Well, only 1 of my 3 was intentionally conceived, so I added 2 of those to the world. 

[TalkToMeNow]

Ha! Between dh and I, we have 4. 2 (dd2 and Jasper) were on purpose. So we've added 2 as well!